D.O.C Race manifold/collector. First Post!

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Hey its nick here are some manifolds i have on a jig and some collectors i welded up throughout the week.Enjoy!
Reply:Attached ImagesLast edited by D.O.C Race-Portland; 08-04-2012 at 06:33 PM.
Reply:Man.... That's some crazy sick work!! Keep posting so I don't have to post my fails....
Reply:1-Do you back purge?2-Outsides look great, now show us the insides.Blackbird
Reply:we dont need to back purge i could if i had to i did that for my 6g cert tig stainless fixed 45deg. but i bevel the pipe and its all fit perfect with no gaps and i got the right amps down so that theres no suger on the inside.and we port where the flange is.little cheat way for the end
Reply:oh i seal the inside of the collector first too
Reply:Nice, what machine setup do you use?? What are the headers for ??Lincoln pro mig 180Lincoln Square Wave Tig 300/wp 20/home built water cooler Victor, Purox, Harris, O/A welding/cutting setupsVintage Craftsman drill pressVintage Craftsman/Atlas 12"x 36'' lathe7''x 12'' w/c band saw Everlast 140 st
Reply:Don't need to backpurge... you say that like it is a choice, in your shop the air doesn't react with the stainless like it does everywhere else in the world?
Reply:Dude walks in with a confident look and a square jaw.... posts images of what look to me very impressive.....Good first post Doc!Precision TIG 185 and MP 210Bobcat 225NTCutmaster 42O/A tanks.... 2 Argon tanks...... 2 C25 TanksFacebook...... F2 Metal WorksETSY....... https://www.etsy.com/shop/F2MetalWorksF2MetalWorks.com....... http://www.f2metalworks.com/
Reply:Very nice work! D.O.C.? department of corrections?
Reply:Did you take that picture of yourself? I think everything looks great. I'm also curious to know what these are for. Please, do tell.While joints may be tight and material thick, purging would insure every weld regardless of the situation. Great job man, lets see some more.
Reply:That lookes like great work, but it just came to me as I was looking at the twisted tubing parts, you paint it brown and it would look like something took a dump on your bench
Reply:Looking great.  Thanks for joining, and posting up your pics.-AaronJet 17.5" Drill Press1942 South Bend 16x84 Lathe1980s Miller 320A / BP --- 2013 Power Mig 2562012 Jet 7x12 Horizontal BandsawVictor O/A Setup
Reply:Originally Posted by kustomizingkidDon't need to backpurge... you say that like it is a choice, in your shop the air doesn't react with the stainless like it does everywhere else in the world?
Reply:No but it is a part that is heat cycled and subjected to severe vibration. Cracks will happen eventually.But they look good on the outside.Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:Originally Posted by bratkid63It is a choice. Not every weld has to be ASME pressure vessel certified and in this case the weld is neither structural or under pressure, so I think he made the right choice.I wouldn't waste the argon back purging either. I mean, it's an exhaust system for crying out loud.
Reply:Nice work there bud! I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Nice looking headers brother!Brad GeorgeCurrent Equipment:AIRCO Heliwelder IV 300Amp Model - Total Awesomeness!Old 120v Hobart Handler MIGVarious grinders, cutting tools, hammers, clamps, ect..."I'm an amateur welder with lots left to learn..."
Reply:I would like to apologize on behalf of the "backpurge police".No you do not always need to backpurge. The act of backpurging is done to avoid certain problems, if these problems are not happening then wasting argon and a huge amount of time is beyond stupid, especially if it's not a nasa critical part or you're trying to make money and have to produce a bunch. duhLast edited by MikeGyver; 08-05-2012 at 05:33 PM.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Originally Posted by BCTimberwolfIt appears to have a pedestal for a turbo on it. So yes it will be under pressure. Not much, but between that and the heat cycles, it will crack eventually.
Reply:Absolutely not. I'm just saying that if I'm going to take my time to do something, I'm going to do it the best I can. No sense in half a$$ing such a beautiful set of headers over $2 in argon. If these headers are in fact going on a turbo vehicle, I would do it as a precaution for my own peace of mind knowing there wouldn't be any sugaring going through my turbine blades at 140,000 rpm. I dunno...guess it's every individual's call, but my personal preference. Just like I would never leave a crater at the end of an aluminum weld.
Reply:I don't know if you've spent much time actually back purging things and doing it the corresct way, but it easily doubles (or more) the welding and setup time.I'm guessing the original poster isn't making these to hang on his garage wall, he's probably trying to make a living to some extent. If it's just some personal project you're dinking around then by all means do everything the ideal textbook way and reap the further (minute) gains at the cost of a 10-fold time investment. However, if these are being sold that's the different of making money lor losing money... for what? no noticable gain, quality, or performance? it's complete nonsense.The guy said there's no sugaring. If your eyes are telling your brain there's no sugaring then you can safely deduce that no sugaring will go through your turbo. In this case doing something as a percaution is superceeded by knowing what you're doing and being able to make smart (business) decisions.Last edited by MikeGyver; 08-05-2012 at 10:14 PM.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Thanks for the constructive critisizem  and compliments ill try to ansewer all as best as possible. these are all turbo manifolds yes. they go on honda covic b15 throug k series and nissians 2r-22's etc. we make stuff for most tuner cars. it is a little business here in portland. stuff eventually cracks we do our best to prevent that. back purging is not financially adequate. it would take to much time and money. we make these form scratch and i can make two a day if im mobbin.i run a precision tig 225 and a miller tigrunner 300. i would like to have a dynasty wireless 500 or whatever that bigger one is. water cooled an all. lol yes i took the pic myself. my htc phone has horrible resolution compared to my homies phones these day.remember im only 23 and still learnig everything i can. dont hate too hard haha but i can take it. again this is a three man business and i keep it professional.feel free to ask anything else.doc as in doctor race too. haha. more too come next wee. gotta do show pieces for vegas. lookin forward to it!thanks for the support!docrace.comNick
Reply:Cool stuff! Welcome!If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:I mean syncrowave 250 not tigrunnerOriginally Posted by BCTimberwolfAbsolutely not. I'm just saying that if I'm going to take my time to do something, I'm going to do it the best I can. No sense in half a$$ing such a beautiful set of headers over $2 in argon. If these headers are in fact going on a turbo vehicle, I would do it as a precaution for my own peace of mind knowing there wouldn't be any sugaring going through my turbine blades at 140,000 rpm. I dunno...guess it's every individual's call, but my personal preference. Just like I would never leave a crater at the end of an aluminum weld.
Reply:man, first of all let me say that I am not a professional but I decided to built a set of headers from schedule 10 ss weld el's myself a few years ago, then sent them out to have them "professionally" welded... well what I got back was a sugared up mess.... headers were ruined and this caused me to go on a huge frenzy of both me buying my own tig to learn to do it myself and also a huge learning binge to both learn the right way and the best way to do them myself...I have since spoken to many pro's, both here on welding web and many other sources... I've spoken to race car fabricators, professional pipe welders including guys who do sanitary pipe for a living and even several aircraft mechanics...the bottom line in what I learned is this;;;;the "right" way to weld this stuff is full penetration back purged welds. period... yes there are many guys out there who are doing similar to you, just welding the outsides of the joints, just welding it enough to seal and fasten, this allows you to put minimal heat into it and get pretty looking rainbow colored welds, and many of the guys who do this swear that they can get many years of trouble free use from this too, BUT, you have to realize that while this may kind of work, and while this may hold up to many applications too, it is far from the correct way to really weld these joints....yeah you may have gotten your amperage and travel speed perfected enough to not get much sugaring extending into the pipes, but this is not the only thing to look out for...  because to do that sucessfully then you simply can not get full penetration. also, even though you may be able to avoid large sugar deposits projecting into the pipe, this does not mean that the insides of the welds are not sugared at all, because they are. there is no way you could ever get your fitup to be air tight, so the back of the welds simply HAS to be exposed to oxygen and this exposure is what causes "sugaring" or carbide precipitation at the back of the weld... maybe not enough that a chunk is going to break off and destroy an impeller but enough that the weld is weaker than it would be without this carbide precipitation contamination...   now add to these contaminated welds the fact that there isn't full penetration means that there is a seam at the inside of each weld that is a stress riser adding to the potential for cracking and in the end you can see why a weld like this is much more prone to cracking and will crack much sooner than a fully penetrated back purged weld... this is not mine or anyone else's opinion, this is just a fact...to say that these are not under stress or pressure is just false... once you finish welding these things up they are already under a lot of residual stress... if you don't believe this then cut any one of your seams open and watch how much the 2 ends of the pipe you just cut deflect from lining up with each other... and this is only the beginning because stainless steel really expands a lot when heated, and turbo headers will heat up good, expect to see at least 12, 13 hundred degrees F and can get much higher depending on tune or lack there of... the stainless WILL expand quite a bit, but the tubes are all different lengths and different curves so this means that as they expand they will fight against each other even more... this expansion that happens at the same time the metal is heated beyond it's real working tolerances is what leads to premature cracking and it's not uncommon to see headers like these crack in just months of use... all the more so if you happen to be hanging the turbo right off the manifold tooI'm not telling you any of this to knock your work, and I do fully understand that the difference between doing it the way you are and doing it and doing it really the right way is huge, but you should at least realize that this is the reason why some headers can cost thousands of dollars while others may only cost hundreds... assuming your headers are in the hundreds range then yeah, I guess you can't expect them to really be done the "right" way, it wouldn't be cost effective and you would loose money on each and every one you build, BUT, and here's the big BUT, you should at least realize and know the difference, and if you do ever have a desire to build a high end product, something that is better than all the other guys out there who are doing the same mediocre type work, and to wind up having the ability and skill to build these really the right way, and to have the potential to build really good headers that are really worth thousands then you should at least know and understand the difference between doing it this way and doing it the right way.I do understand what MikeGyver is getting at and that to many guys this is "good enough", it certainly is good enough for the guy who wants a cheaper header for a honda, hell it's ok to do cheaper work if that's all your market will support and all your competition is doing anyway, but as you said your young and you want to learn so this is the real reason for my post here, for you to realize the difference between doing it to be somewhat adequate and doing it really well, anyone who has any pride in there work should at least want to know how to do there job right and should want to know what and why there is a difference. if you are not going to back purge and you are not going to burn these in enough to get full penetration anyway then I would suggest that you at least look into using solarflux, this will at least eliminate the contamination that will otherwise make your welds weaker than they could be as-is and this won't add much to the time or overhead in doing thesemiller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:also just want to add one more thing. welds like yours are most likely to crack right at the weld. it's where the stress riser is with there still being a seam behind the weld, and it's also the weakest point because of the carbide precipitation in the back of the weld.... fully penetrated and backpurged welds will not crack at the weld, but will usually crack right next to the weld because of too much heat put into the weld itself and the resulting damage to the base metal along side the welds... there's a fine line between not fully penetrating the weld and leaving a seam, and fully penetrating and overheating the crap out of the metal... the ideal balance is to have just enough heat for full penetration but not a whole lot more than that or it will crack next to the weld anyway.... just wanted to add that for more information... your fit up and your work looks great, don't settle and always try to learn and improve, you're already doing really well, no reason why you couldn't strive to be better and better at what you do, that's the only way to really become great at what you do miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:It's just going to fall on deaf ears turbocad. In a turbo application, I wouldn't recommend solar flux unless he comes up with a great way to ensure it is all removed after they have been welded.
Reply:turbocad, and that right there is why i will be gladly paying to have my headers done. they will be done right. i can weld and am good the welds i do, but i am not a stainless welder. nor have i ever said i was. i know my limits and this is one of them. I want to learn stainless, but not on a set of headers that sees the extreme heat and expansion and abuse that a drag car will require. running at 6-7000 RPM all the time is not easy on parts. and headers are one of those things you install and forget about. i want them to outlive me.Offering CNC Plasma cutting and welding projects.Follow me on facebook https://www.facebook.com/nobigdeal.fabSupport those that support WW.
Reply:Appreciate the noel and advicce. Guess ill talk to my boss bout back purging. That was the main point from what i understand
Reply:the main point is really 2 things. one is the back purge to make sure the inner part of your weld has as much integrity as the outer part of your weld.two is to then put a bit more heat into it and try to get full penetration. you want to wet the inside of the weld to get a real quality weld. if you penetrate enough to wet out the inner parts of the welds while the insides are filled with argon the weld itself will never crack. if you don't cook the hell out of it to get this full penetration then they won't crack along side the welds either.the difference were talking about here is the difference between welds that can and most likely will eventually crack and welds that will most likely never crack.... that's a pretty big differencemiller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:even though it looks like there not as much penetration we have made sure there is adequete heat. the rainbow does not mean lack of pen. we would not send faulty product out the door. the 1000 wph supra has been doin just fine along with a satisfied customer base, but always looking for ways to improve. and if thee is a problem we stand behind our stuff with a killer warranty. but u cannot satisfy all. there will always be room to imnprove.
Reply:bro, I never said your stuff was crap, on the contrary, your work looks very good. the cutting and fitting of this stuff is no joke and that's the really hard work. doing really good welds would only make your stuff that much better than it is, and that is the way a real pro would do it, and result in a header that you can really expect to last many years with far less chance of cracking. the rainbow is not what says that you don't have full penetration, the fact that you aren't backpurging and have no visible sugaring inside says that you don't have full penetration. it's not possible to have a really good weld without backpurging, it really is as simple as that... good enough?, maybe, but not really good.as I have said, many guys do it just like this and are satisfied with good enough. if it's good enough for you then that's fine, I'm only trying to explain the difference between good enough and really good miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:just need to convince the boss now. we are both perfectionists so im sure bettering product would be in the companys best interest not to mention figuring out an efficient way to backpurge effectivly. i went to school boss didnt. dont know if he even know how to backpurge. id love to do that as a final hoorah on the manifolds. make them that much better. apprecitate the input! could probably get it down to where its a simply 5 min hook up and i dont look alot of time. cutting and prepping take a lot of care and time like u said.
Reply:here's a back-purge jig that my boss made awhile back for a 350Z turbo-kit. I just started working with a few of the over 30 applications so i'm learning the processes everyday.. Attached Images
Reply:There's a lot of options for purging. everything from plastic caps and tapes, to incorporating it in the jigs. Glad to see you headed that way, it really is an essential step for a part that sees the kind of stresses and heat cycles that headers do.
Reply:thanks, it is a much better joint with the purging just not used all of the time. A couple more pics of some stuff I finished up today...60mm wastegate merge, twinscroll Attached Images
Reply:good job!!
Reply:Originally Posted by BCTimberwolfIt appears to have a pedestal for a turbo on it. So yes it will be under pressure. Not much, but between that and the heat cycles, it will crack eventually.
Reply:Originally Posted by gamehoggr1Turbo pressure side is on intake side not exhaust side,AWESOME work !!!!!!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by gamehoggr1Turbo pressure side is on intake side not exhaust side,AWESOME work !!!!!!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by gamehoggr1Turbo pressure side is on intake side not exhaust side,AWESOME work !!!!!!!!
Reply:Yeah, turbos's can cause a lot of back pressure and build up a lot of pressure in the headermiller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Nice work! I as well was going to add that backpurge is basically a must on any ss mani that is going to be "used". MY TIG torch is too small for most of the work I do but I get by. I BP any and all SS that will see anything more than eyes looking at it. Just common practice. I also BP aluminum just to make it a better weld and loo nicer.This guy set up a pretty nice BP setup. Some day I will get a thicker base plate and actually setup a permanent BP system.
Reply:nice! that guys looks like he has a good little system! good work!
Reply:Originally Posted by turbocad6the bottom line in what I learned is this;;;;
Reply:Except for looks, any particular reason to build them out of stainless?
Reply:Mild steel will rust in about 20 min, when subjected to high heat. (ok maybe not that fast but within a few days) and custom headers that you spend big money on you don't want to replace them every couple years becausethey have rusted through.Offering CNC Plasma cutting and welding projects.Follow me on facebook https://www.facebook.com/nobigdeal.fabSupport those that support WW.
Reply:just want to say again here that I don't mean to knock your work down at all here nick, you really do great work and from the sounds of it you will be learning a whole lot each day working where you are now, my whole point was all just to help you see and understand the real difference back purging makes and why   Originally Posted by er3456df5 star post.  You learned a lot- what were your best sources of info?  I'm guessing you did a little more than search internet forums.