More tales from the inspector

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Received a box of 5 parts in today, recall that these parts are used in areaswhere if it fails someone could get seriously injured or killed. Explosives and propellants/energetics.This is typical of parts I inspect.These parts had a weld callout made of .060 6061 T6 Aluminum sheet.Bent to shape and welded in 4 locations about a 2" to 2 1/4" weld.Obviously TIG. CalloutIn addition the Notes read Full Penetration Welds 100%Grind Welds on adjacent Surfaces FlushDye Penetrant Inspect ASTM-XXXXXXXSo none of the welds were 100% penetration even in areas where the weld DID penetrate the seam is clearly visible, EXCEPT where it was Tacked, all other weld seams were clearly visible.One part was cracked in the box en route (from Across Town) another part had a crack a half inch long right out of the box.Parts including Dye Penetrant inspection.This is what is produced by an ISO 9001 Certified shop, for use in our environment.Sometimes you DO get what you paid for...Granted the Welder does not ALWAYS know what the part is used for but there is a set of standards.When it states 100% penetration and FULL Penetration.....Last edited by kkroger; 08-29-2013 at 09:15 PM.
Reply:How does the inside of the seam look? From the looks of the cracks it may have been welded without filler so they wouldn't have to grind much and that caused it to crack.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:This discussion is well over my head, but I will ask..Did these parts come from an ultra low bid "we pay 6 bucks an hour for AL TIG" type place, or did they come from  a reputable place?Only reason I ask is, from time to time I check out the want ads and see places that want guys who can build from AWS symbols, unsupervised, etc. etc, and the pay is more or less minimum wage once you factor in that they're all (the grunts, I mean) going to be "independent contractors"People ask me why I'm not all bright eyed and bushy tailed to hop on a Southwest flight.This kind of garbage is happening with composites too.If you fight long enough, you will win. The problem is it costs too damned much.- Lee Cheng
Reply:Wanted welder must be bilingual Know mig and tig will train minimum wage to startCall hose a's weldingBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:You forgot "must be able to fab from prints and know all AWS symbols".If you fight long enough, you will win. The problem is it costs too damned much.- Lee Cheng
Reply:So Originally Posted by bellflowerThis discussion is well over my head, but I will ask..Did these parts come from an ultra low bid "we pay 6 bucks an hour for AL TIG" type place, or did they come from  a reputable place?Only reason I ask is, from time to time I check out the want ads and see places that want guys who can build from AWS symbols, unsupervised, etc. etc, and the pay is more or less minimum wage once you factor in that they're all (the grunts, I mean) going to be "independent contractors"People ask me why I'm not all bright eyed and bushy tailed to hop on a Southwest flight.This kind of garbage is happening with composites too.
Reply:i try not to confuse hose b  and his crew with all that tech garbageas long as they can aim the mig gun in the right direction we're good to goBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Sounds good.Have hose a do it with C25 and hose b do it with straight CO2, then when they're done they can beat each other to death with their work. Clean and analyze welds, rehire.If you fight long enough, you will win. The problem is it costs too damned much.- Lee Cheng
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugHow does the inside of the seam look? From the looks of the cracks it may have been welded without filler so they wouldn't have to grind much and that caused it to crack.
Reply:Sob did youb reject them back to the supplier?Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:As I recall from the late 1990s when it became popular for companies to sport "ISO 9001 Certified" banners, there was a political cartoon, possibly Dilbert though I can't find it, that painted a dismal picture of ISO certifications.  The story line went something to the effect that although a company may be ISO 9001 certified there was no guarantee that their products or services were of high quality.  They could produce any crap they wanted so long as they documented everything properly.  - MondoMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonSob did youb reject them back to the supplier?
Reply:NOTES:1. FINISH: WELDS GROUND, BRUSHED FINISH.2. ALL DIMENSIONS AND TOLERANCES APPLY AFTER WELDING.3. FULL PENETRATION CONTINUOUS WELDS, 100% FUSION.4. LIQUID PENETRANT INSPECTION PER ASTM E165.5. ALL BUTT WELDS TO BE GROUND SMOOTH TO ADJACENT FACES.
Reply:Originally Posted by MondoAs I recall from the late 1990s when it became popular for companies to sport "ISO 9001 Certified" banners, there was a political cartoon, possibly Dilbert though I can't find it, that painted a dismal picture of ISO certifications.  The story line went something to the effect that although a company may be ISO 9001 certified there was no guarantee that their products or services were of high quality.  They could produce any crap they wanted so long as they documented everything properly.  - Mondo
Reply:Yeah, that is far from full penetration. You might want to suggest to your engineering dept. to add a melt thru symbol to the top side of the weld symbol base line or farside so to speak. And instead of a square bevel butt joint symbol, put a single bevel butt joint symbol to really emphasize the full penetration part of the joint.Additionally my people must pass a groove weld operator qualification. Either AWS D17.1 or D1.2 or both. That qualification is full penetration and radiographed for defects.  Does this shop have qualified operators?Lastly I hate 4043 as a filler. I prefer 4943 or 5356 for strength. Do these get anodized?If you need a consultant, I recommend WookieWelding(Wes). Last edited by shovelon; 08-30-2013 at 10:00 AM.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I see no evidence of a copper, brass, steel, or backing block either. These can be called backing shoes as well.Is there clearance to put a weld on the inside?Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI see no evidence of a copper, brass, steel, or backing block either. These can be called backing shoes as well.Is there clearance to put a weld on the inside?
Reply:Originally Posted by kkrogerA Welder with more than a couple brain cells to rub together would help too.
Reply:I wish there were welding opportunities like that around here. I'd be stoked to work at a place that got jobs like that.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by yoshimitsuspeedI wish there were welding opportunities like that around here. I'd be stoked to work at a place that got jobs like that.
Reply:Originally Posted by kkrogerWe have a place here called "___________ Welding"that sends parts in here that look like a retarded monkey did the welding....Just imagine how bobo reacts when the Mig Gun Arcs and he throws it down and bounces around the room then comes back and does it again... ZAP!!! EEK EEK!!! ZAP!!! EEK EEEK!!!!!
Reply:Working in a mig sweatshop has no pay scale  no futureYour lumped in with hose A and hose B and all they can do is squirt metal in the direction of what there working on,Most cannot read a tape or use a square and don't care if what they do is crap work they just make as many as they can as fast as they can...Like throwing crap at the wall and hope it sticksIf you do a better job they don't like you and they will try to get you cannedAnd when the contract is fulfilled your gone anywayLast edited by killdozerd11; 08-30-2013 at 04:24 PM.Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Working in a mig sweatshop has no pay scale  no futureYour lumped in with hose A and hose B and all they can do is squirt metal in the direction of what there working on,Most cannot read a tape or use a square and don't care if what they do is crap work they just make as many as they can as fast as they can...Like throwing crap at the wall and hope it sticksIf you do a better job they don't like you and they will try to get you cannedAnd when the contract is fulfilled your gone anyway
Reply:I thought you were not supposed to grind aluminum welds as that is where the strength is?Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:There are a lot of misconceptions about ISO 9001. The long and short of it is that you have to have a quality control process and the employees have to follow it. Also, you must review quality data. There are no real stipulations on HOW good quality has to be.. Bottom line, no two cents about it, quality starts at the bottom and works up. If the guys doing the design and/or manufacture don't give a crap about making quality products, no amount of process or certifications will stop them from doing their job poorly.Originally Posted by GambleI thought you were not supposed to grind aluminum welds as that is where the strength is?
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThat would depend greatly on the application of the part and assembly. It's pretty hard to get two pieces to fit nice and tight together if you have a proud bead getting in the way.In theory, engineers take these sorts of things into account. If a weld needs to support X strength, and you need to have a flush surface on one or both sides, then you adjust the weld specs to account for any strength loss due to removal of the bead reinforcing. That may mean you need to increase the weld length so you have more weld taking up the required load. It might mean you need to change alloys or filler materials. It might mean the joint itself needs to be redesigned so the weld isn't in that particular location... and so on. The engineer knows what basic parameters need to be met depending on what the particular circumstances are for the project at hand.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZmechanicThere are a lot of misconceptions about ISO 9001. The long and short of it is that you have to have a quality control process and the employees have to follow it.
Reply:kkrogerBefore someone trips on all the hoses - and inadvertently hangs a weldor - I submit:The primary flaw in your part is its design  >  the designer.  This is a common CAD corner in medium gage material.It was CNC punched, folded, and welded [?].In my 'failure analysis/repair' experience; the designer did not understand the 'complexity and expense' of the weld operations necessary to make this - convenient and weak - CNC design meet applied specifications.This part was designed and authorized by someone without applied welding knowledge.This is especially disconcerting due to your afore-mentioned life-safety concerns. Critical Application aside - this design and weld - is something I would expect to see on: lawn furniture, an RV, or some mystery item at a yard sale.The expense:of design & weld specs., ISO, fabrication, QC, dye-pen, rejection - failure analysis, next: design & weld specs., ISO, fabrication, QC, dye-pen . . . . . . kkroger - how do I get my head in this feed-bag? Stop shoveling money in the furnace and return the integrity of this fixture to the designer [engineer?], instead of violating welding tenets taught in Vo-Tech.Opus  p.s.    ISO protocols are not weld specifications.
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Working in a mig sweatshop has no pay scale  no futureYour lumped in with hose A and hose B and all they can do is squirt metal in the direction of what there working on,Most cannot read a tape or use a square and don't care if what they do is crap work they just make as many as they can as fast as they can...Like throwing crap at the wall and hope it sticksIf you do a better job they don't like you and they will try to get you cannedAnd when the contract is fulfilled your gone anyway
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROkkrogerBefore someone trips on all the hoses - and inadvertently hangs a weldor - I submit:The primary flaw in your part is its design  >  the designer.  This is a common CAD corner in medium gage material.It was CNC punched, folded, and welded [?].In my 'failure analysis/repair' experience; the designer did not understand the 'complexity and expense' of the weld operations necessary to make this - convenient and weak - CNC design meet applied specifications.This part was designed and authorized by someone without applied welding knowledge.This is especially disconcerting due to your afore-mentioned life-safety concerns. Critical Application aside - this design and weld - is something I would expect to see on: lawn furniture, an RV, or some mystery item at a yard sale.The expense:of design & weld specs., ISO, fabrication, QC, dye-pen, rejection - failure analysis, next: design & weld specs., ISO, fabrication, QC, dye-pen . . . . . . kkroger - how do I get my head in this feed-bag? Stop shoveling money in the furnace and return the integrity of this fixture to the designer [engineer?], instead of violating welding tenets taught in Vo-Tech.Opus  p.s.    ISO protocols are not weld specifications.
Reply:+ 1 to Shovelon's post. The design is sound for many applications, would need much more information to determine if it was appropriate for the application.
Reply:Originally Posted by leightrepairs+ 1 to Shovelon's post. The design is sound for many applications, would need much more information to determine if it was appropriate for the application.
Reply:Heck yeah ...Give them to Terry he and his crew are very good at what they doI have been to his shop and seen their work and they wouldn't have any problem with that simple weld...you should see some of what they do thereBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI am going to disagree . The design is sound. The workmanship was not. Q.A. did their job, discovered it did not meet the requirements of the drawing/purchase order, and was summarily rejected at the expense of the vendor.  That is how jobshopping works. Purchasing needs to be a big babysitter and make the vendor pony up. But these days that task is given to some college educated pantywaist expediter that can't make a sammich let alone talk turkey on the shop floor.
Reply:I don't get to write em or decide who gets to make **** here... The Main company has decreed that the shop will be ISO certified.... In what? No idea perhaps pumping sewage.I just get to inspect the crap that comes in the door and tell the gaining engineer that it is crap... Then he/she gets to decide if with the given defects that the part will still work well enough at this time. Which they sometimes do, All I have to do is determine if it does or does not meet print.You can get your parts any way you want.GoodFast or Cheap....Pick any two...I have received certs on parts (i.e. our vendor has pronounced them good and we should accept on his word) that were duplicates of duplicates with the same date etc on them...I have received inspection printouts from their CMM that SAID the parts were out of spec but the vendor sent them in anyway...I have some pretty wicked inspection machines Optical, Laser, CMM, Vision... You name it I probably have it available. in addition my area is responsible for making calibrating and servicing all of the gages used on plant to manufacture product. We are a pretty "Famous" facility. Well known in certain circles... Our manufacturing lines can produce 4000 parts per hour, and can produce the same or more final product. We have one usual client... He buys everything we make... if he doesn't buy something then we can sell some of it to the public... sort of.If our primary client doesn't buy it. We also sell to our largest client's friends... As Allowed.
Reply:I see this type of box corner everyday, the welder should have put copper backing on the joint and on anything over .050" you probably should be smart enough to add a bit of a Vee prep. The grinder that finished it should have handed the parts back to the welder, then QC shouldn't have let it ship. Attached ImagesSqWave 200Millermatic 190Airco 200 ACHypertherm PM45Boice-Crane Band SawVictor O/A
Reply:Sounds like ISO 9001 is a very value added benefit service to companies who want to synergize their paradigms.I would commit suicide, but then I don't have student loan debt.And synergy isn't in my DNA. Oh well.If you fight long enough, you will win. The problem is it costs too damned much.- Lee Cheng
Reply:Originally Posted by MondoAs I recall from the late 1990s when it became popular for companies to sport "ISO 9001 Certified" banners, there was a political cartoon, possibly Dilbert though I can't find it, that painted a dismal picture of ISO certifications.  The story line went something to the effect that although a company may be ISO 9001 certified there was no guarantee that their products or services were of high quality.  They could produce any crap they wanted so long as they documented everything properly.  - Mondo
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugHow does the inside of the seam look? From the looks of the cracks it may have been welded without filler so they wouldn't have to grind much and that caused it to crack.
Reply:The team cheer is about as synergized as we get. You just clock in and out of jobs, then get a first off signed off by QC, then count and sign for your parts and continuously improve and...you're right, I may have to shoot myself.SqWave 200Millermatic 190Airco 200 ACHypertherm PM45Boice-Crane Band SawVictor O/A
Reply:I'm not sure that post came out the way I meant it to.I think maybe an older boy had been forcing me to consume refreshing beverages that night.One too many.If you fight long enough, you will win. The problem is it costs too damned much.- Lee Cheng
Reply:That's just a shame a professional welder does work like that. I mean those look like the quality of work I can do, and I just started courses a couple monthes ago. At least I know my limits.PROUD   AMERICAN
Reply:Engineer dispositioned the non-conforming material today.He was unimpressed with the penetration or lack thereof and decided after little or no prodding to reject all 5 parts...
Reply:Originally Posted by kkrogerEngineer dispositioned the non-conforming material today.He was unimpressed with the penetration or lack thereof and decided after little or no prodding to reject all 5 parts...
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonAwesome. We are doing that same joint on a bezel assy weld today on 6063 base with 5356 filler for anodize. I don't do the weld blending as my specialty is the correct weld. The print calls out for sqaure bevel butt welds with a melt thru symbol on the top side(other side of the joint) of the weld symbol base line, and a flush profile symbol over the weld and a G for grind over that. Pretty plain to me. That is why the parts keep coming back to me. I am glad you know your stuff.
Reply:Originally Posted by kkrogerThanks,How about this from the SAME Vendor... No welding basically a square block with a 2" bore in the center with two counterbored bolt holes going one way and two opposing on opposite corners....We measured it with a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) position of two bolt holes is off by .007, they said we measured it incorrectly, so the eng bought one to work test Didn't fit the machine no way no shape no how... simply will not bolt on. Vendor maintains in light of this new information that we measured it incorrectly, apparently that fact prevents it from actually fitting.They want to send them back in to be re-inspected with a height gage instead of a CMM.... because that will make it fit the machine....????? WTF?
Reply:Originally Posted by kkrogerDidn't fit the machine no way no shape no how... simply will not bolt on. Vendor maintains in light of this new information that we measured it incorrectly, apparently that fact prevents it from actually fitting.They want to send them back in to be re-inspected with a height gage instead of a CMM.... because that will make it fit the machine....????? WTF?
Reply:Originally Posted by MondoAs I recall from the late 1990s when it became popular for companies to sport "ISO 9001 Certified" banners, there was a political cartoon, possibly Dilbert though I can't find it, that painted a dismal picture of ISO certifications.  The story line went something to the effect that although a company may be ISO 9001 certified there was no guarantee that their products or services were of high quality.  They could produce any crap they wanted so long as they documented everything properly.  - Mondo
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveLike this?Dave J.