Critique my First 6g pipe weld.

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So I just bought a bobcat 250 to learn how to pipe weld. I have a little stick experience but have never stick welded pipe before. Just started last weekend in the 5g roll out position.  So go easy Anyways I have been practicing for my ua21 and ua41 test to try and get into the union. 4" sch40. 37 degree bevel3/32 land 3/32 gap6010 root7018 hot and cover pass (no pics of cover pass yet)So I finally got the heat down on the root pass to where it is key holing and not getting too hot. But I need to work on hand positioning to keep the electrode in the center. You can see wher I rode up on the bevel a little too much. On my hot pass I started at 6 to 9 to 12 o'clock and that seemed ok. But then going up the other side it started getting hot and wide. Should I move faster here? Maybe let the pipe cool? I have a ton of questions. Please helpLast edited by sjdiesel; 02-08-2014 at 10:09 PM.
Reply:InsideLast edited by sjdiesel; 02-08-2014 at 10:49 PM.
Reply:Keep burnin'. Hopefully some of the pipe guys can head you in the right direction. City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:I'm no pipe guy, structural hand all my life.I think you're doing good, you just need to work on rod angle as you come around the pipe. The angle changes all the time. You'll get it, it will just take some time. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Looks good!We're working on some 5g 6" pipe right now. Pain in the ***. Pipe welding is not my friend. At least not uphill, we're going to hit downhill next week.
Reply:Yes I definitely need to work on rod and hand positioning. On this pipe should I try and do one cover pass?? Or stick with the stringers?On the hot pass how do I get rid of the slag inclusions? Hold the edges longer? I feel like the heat is about right.Man all I can say is I have been MIG and TIG welding on and off for 6+ years and this pipe welding is by far the hardest!!
Reply:On 6-G I would use stringers on pipe that size. 5-G I might use a weave, all depends on how wide it will be. Remember the 3-rod rule. The trick is to get your root pass in as flat as you can. When using 6010 for the hot pass I'll use a U motion. Let the legs of the U cut into the toes to dig out any inclusions. With 7018 your not going to have much luck with the U motion, that's why I said to put the root in flat as you can.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Ok so what is the 3 rod rule? Weld should not be wider than the width of 3 rods?And for the hot pass i am using 3/32 7018 I was told I would be allowed to grind the root down since I am using 6010. So that is what I have been doing. But yes I am trying to get the root as flat as possible but I do get some high spots at the tie ins. I was told this is normal and that is why they let you grind it a little.
Reply:Originally Posted by sjdieselOk so what is the 3 rod rule? Weld should not be wider than the width of 3 rods?
Reply:sjdiesel.....one thing to note is that the ua21 is done on 2", XXS pipe.  That is almost twice as thick as your 4" sch. 40.  Generally easier to learn on.
Reply:Yes 2" xxs pipe would be nice to practice on but I would have to buy a full stick from our local steel yard. That is not in the budget right now. But I have a lot of the 4" sch. 40 lying around that is free
Reply:With XX10 bead and the rest lohy, you should take out your wagon tracks with grinder, that 7018 will not burn them out good.  Most times I have tested like that the HP was with a xx10 rod, then there is no grinding cept for maybe high spots, maybe starts stops if allowed.   Use lohy size you feel comfortable with on that size pipe, at least for now till you get it slick.  I always try to lay the passes in there where it is almost flush before I go to cap it.  Whether you weave your cap or stringer it on will be the job/inspector's choice.   For cap practice instead of making up full joints you can just soapstone a line around the pipe and cut a little notch in it with a cutoff wheel (gives you a good line to follow).  Then just run caps around the pipe, gives you more practice with less effort.  Put it in position and do it, no roll outs, no moving the pipe after tack up and you start welding.   Does not look like it will take you long to get better at it.   Good luck.
Reply:Ua21 wasn't to bad. The XXS pipe takes the heat really well unlike sched 40 or 80. Just takes time getting used to the speed and motion around the pipe. They are looking for a 5p root lohy out. 3 stronger cover. I put the root in around 85. Three tacks all ground smooth and tapered. Grind all your restarts. Any arc strikes automatic look out. Judging by your pictures you need a little more heat to get a little more penetration. Clean the scale back about 1/4-1/2 back from your bevel.
Reply:Stupid computer.... I didn't realize my first post had the same pics over and over. Sorry guys. Here are the rest.Last edited by sjdiesel; 02-09-2014 at 08:35 PM.
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Reply:Originally Posted by violatedpplUa21 wasn't to bad. The XXS pipe takes the heat really well unlike sched 40 or 80. Just takes time getting used to the speed and motion around the pipe. They are looking for a 5p root lohy out. 3 stronger cover. I put the root in around 85. Three tacks all ground smooth and tapered. Grind all your restarts. Any arc strikes automatic look out. Judging by your pictures you need a little more heat to get a little more penetration. Clean the scale back about 1/4-1/2 back from your bevel.
Reply:Originally Posted by tommyjokingWith XX10 bead and the rest lohy, you should take out your wagon tracks with grinder, that 7018 will not burn them out good.  Most times I have tested like that the HP was with a xx10 rod, then there is no grinding cept for maybe high spots, maybe starts stops if allowed.   Use lohy size you feel comfortable with on that size pipe, at least for now till you get it slick.  I always try to lay the passes in there where it is almost flush before I go to cap it.  Whether you weave your cap or stringer it on will be the job/inspector's choice.   For cap practice instead of making up full joints you can just soapstone a line around the pipe and cut a little notch in it with a cutoff wheel (gives you a good line to follow).  Then just run caps around the pipe, gives you more practice with less effort.  Put it in position and do it, no roll outs, no moving the pipe after tack up and you start welding.   Does not look like it will take you long to get better at it.   Good luck.
Reply:lohy is low hydrogen welding rod. Here is a picture of wagon tracks. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:So then are wagon tracks normal on the root with 6010? Or am I doing something wrong?
Reply:Oh I don't know if they are normal, but they do happen. That's why I like to run the U pattern for my hot pass with 6010, just to make sure I burn the wagon tracks out. Here is a picture of the outside of a root pass I did. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Wagon tracks are pretty normal with 5p. Looks like more heat on the root. You really want to punch in and while welding just be welding the land nothing on the actual bevel. Grind you high spot, wire wheel and put in your hot. Hot can go 5p or lohy depends on the weld procedure. On 6" it looks like your trying to fill as well as run your hot. At this point I suggest running I lighter hot pass focusing on burning the wagon tracks and getting a solid foundation for a smooth fill and cover pass.
Reply:Next time you take pics...take more of bead/root with your 5p inside and out top to bottom.   You are letting your fills wander a bit to one side or other on fills.  I really like my fill passes to be almost flush before i cap.   Keep taking pics and posting them because you are not far off being ready to test. I had posted before here but for whatever reason it did not take....run some more and post pics.
Reply:Awesome, thanks for the advice!! I have been doing so many side welding jobs on the weekends that I haven't had time to really practice. But I am hoping I can this weekend. I will def take more pics. Thanks again guys!!
Reply:As others have said, a convex root bead with wagon tracks is to be expected.  Trying to flatten it out while putting it in causes the insides to flatten to the point of being concave.  Take note of CEP's root profile.
Reply:Fieldres does a lot of pipe on YouTubeWagon tracks are faint lines that show up in an X-ray that look like a pair of wagon tracks going through the mud.  They are caused by incomplete penetration at the edges of the weld.  Typically root passes are convex because trying to close a gap is your primary concern.  The hot pass is intended to burn into the root pass and melt out the edges of the convex root.  The hot pass is not about buildup.  Some guys run so hot and fast that one hesitation and they would blow through the root.  Running super hot and a fast travel gives you a flat bead to build on.  If your hot pass is convex the E 7018 will not melt into the valley at the edges of the convex hot pass and you get the wagon tracks that show up in the X-ray.   Or in the case of your bent coupons a failed root bend.   Keep practicing.  I notice your root is pretty good but I see a few places where there is suck back or undercut?
Reply:ok guys, FINALLY got around to getting some more practice in and i need some input.6'' sch40 pipe, 3/32 land, 1/16 gap running 1/8 fleetweld 5p+i ran a few root passes today and here are the pics. I want to be able to shoot xray at this so please give me some direction. thanks fellasSean
Reply:I'd cut down on the thickness of the land. Open the gap some.You need to grind the pipe seam back before you place your gap. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:3/32 Lo-hy ran in stringers and watching your rod angle is going to be key for making the 6g work in your favor.1973 Lincoln SA 200, Already replaced shunt coils, Idle board (SOLD)1984 Miller Dialarc 250HF, Miller water cooler, 250 AMP water cooled torch, you know the worx.
Reply:yeah i just had a buddy tell me that...im green he also told me to increase the gap too
Reply:ok so here are my latest welds. 5' pipe sch 80. 1/8' land and gap. i know it is far from perfect but i really feel i am making progress considering i am only welding up a couple coupons a week. i need to feather my tacs more and i did forget to grind out the pipe weld seam so please over look that. and on this coupon i think i could have turned up the heat a little on the root pass.also am i doing this right? i run my root pass feathering my starts and stops and then grind down the high spots and lumps before i run my hot pass.
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Reply:will these slag inclusions burn out??
Reply:The little slag inclusions will probably burn out but why take the chance. Cleaning that out and the 6010 root and hot i like a zip disk and a 14" half round file.
Reply:Az sa200, The slag inclusions on the hot pass? You grind them out? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I just didn't know. I thought about grinding them out but didn't know if they would let me during a test and I don't want to pick up any more bad habits How do you prep for the hot pass? Grind more out? Thanks
Reply:After the root pass i try to get out as much slag as i can without grinding it to thin. Blow through your root pass and you're gonna get looked out. On the hot pass if i cant get them out with a wire wheel I'll file or grind them out. I'm not very familiar with the UA tests but before you start you can ask the person overseeing the test what you can and can't use.
Reply:Roots better but would still get looked out on visual. Not tied into tacks or just general lack of pen in marked spots. Hot pass to cold lack of fusion tied into side walls caused slag inclusion. Would bring that hot smooth get all the slag out. Run another filler 1/16 under flush than a 2-3 stringer cap.
Reply:Thank you for the tips violateppl. I am planning on welding some more today so we will see how it goes.
Reply:Looking pretty good man!
Reply:Everyone is saying my hot is too cold and that is why I'm getting slag inclusions but when I turn up the heat or hold the edges longer I get bad undercut!?!?!? I don't know what to do? Move faster? Rod angle?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:I'm with Arizona about grinding more of the root out.  UA requirements say you can grind on everything except the cap.  Also, don't try to get too cute on your root re-starts.  A guy who does it all the time may be able to make a clean start that looks even on the outside, but for most people it's best to nicely feather your stop and start well back on it.  Make sure you have a nice puddle going when you push through.  http://www.pftf597.org/training/welding-certifications/
Reply:Feather your tacks, and take your time with the fit up, I prefer four tacks 12-3-6-9, but that's a matter of preference.  OldSparks and Arizona are right about grinding the root out, with an uphill root you can really grind the snot out of it. Burn completely over your tacks to ensure proper tie in. Grind and buff with wire wheel. As your running your hot pass and filler feel free to grind out any rough patches, OldSparks is right, the only thing you cant grind is your cap. Wire wheel it after every pass. That lohy really needs it clean. You wanna be pretty close to flush when you start your cap, which is probably gonna be three if not four passes. Good luck brotha!
Reply:I admire your patience with this, and really trying to do it right. your on the right track, just keep listening, and don't let time get the best of you. slow, and steady as she goes. you have all the skills and info already, in your next couple trys it will all come together. don't be afraid to grind stuff out. especially for practicebosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:Thanks guys for all the advice and encouragement. I Havent been practicing or updating this lately because my baby girl was born 4/5!!!!! Im a proud papa!!!! Even more motivation to get out of this dead end job i have now and get into the pipe fitting trade!!!!so i finally got some time to get more practice in. I am getting close!! I think Here are some pics of the inside of my 6010 root. What do you all think?bottom 6 oclock9 oclock12 oclock3 oclock
Reply:Hey sj, any chance you can use the forums photo attachment feature so your pics don't go away when you delete them from phototrashbucket that results in preventing others from benefiting from your work and improvements.  Not trying to be a jerk - it's just a pet peeve of mine.And congratulations on the birth of your daughter!  As they say though - it didn't happen if there are no pics. MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Boy those are looking great! Take it from a grandpa, and probably soon to be great grand pa. Nothing good comes from kids! The only good thing about kids is just practicing to have them, but don't actually have any! Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:sorry guys i forgot about the pics disappearing when they get moved in photobucket. Crap i hate that!!! And I cant go back and edit my posts to ad the pics. How can I fix this??For reference where i started outAnd a pic of my baby girlIn all seriousness though how do my roots look?? I know they are not perfect but how close do you think i am to passing xray?
Reply:ADORABLE!Your beautiful daughter that is.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!