Tight budget welding solution

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Decided to come to some forums about these questions, since my google results are flooded with 'DIY/how to make a welder from microwave parts' results.A little info about me for starters: I'm a decent MIG welder, and know my way around a MIG, but when it comes to the theory of welding, I don't really know anything. I just use the machine, get good results, and that's it.Now, I'm looking for a welding machine for personal use, but I don't have much money to spare. I'm not bothered by duty cycles and convenience features. As long as the machine is cheap, and requires as little upkeep as possible (so any type of machine that uses gas is out of the question). From what little I've managed to find out, I think (emphasis on 'think') that stick/arc welding (assuming stick and arc are interchangeable) seems to be the type of machine that would suit my needs. That said, I don't even know what the unique parts of a stick/arc machine are, or how to use one (but hey, if I can learn MIG in 30 minutes...)I don't need any suggestions on specific machine models. I'm just going to look around on ebay, local second-hands and such. I just need help with deciding on the type that would cost me the least, as someone who would use it for building and modifying bicycles.
Reply:Had you there until the end of the very last sentence. Darn! TIG welding would probably be the best solution to building and modifying bicycles with MIG coming in second and stick welding as a thankless last resort. Unfortunately, TIG welders are usually on the highest end of welder purchasing. Now, Tig welding isn't going to come all that easy for you if you are like most folk. It's a simple enough process, but requires a hurdle to actually learn the proper skill set to accomplish. MIG on the other hand "looks" easy, "appears" sound and can bite you on your tail with good looking welds that have little to no penetration. Stick welding, either a straight AC machine or an AC/DC version is going to take a lot of practice to become proficient on bicycle tubing...even more so than TIG in all likelihood. Not having much money to spare can be your salvation in some respects. Get some "hands-on" TIG and MIG experience...stick as well, but get ready to have little good results to show for an extended period of time when it comes to bicycle tubing welds...stick just isn't that kind to any but true experts on thin gauge welding. Any welding process is going to cost an arm and a leg (unfortunately, stick is the cheapest to get into). Save your money, bide your time, feel out what you really like about each welding process and the machine(s) you want for that/those processes and than jump when money is hopefully easier to part with. Sorry I can't be more positive about the matter, but if you head off and purchase the first machine you believe suits your needs right now (and that really isn't all that bad a thing to happen) you may come to find out that your practical solution just doesn't provide the practicality you once thought is possessed.Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:Aye, I definitely know the feeling of MIG welds with no penetration. Didn't take long for me to get the settings right before I solved that problem. As I've said though, I do have MIG experience, and I built a decent looking  recumbent trike with it (I got my measurements and angles slightly wrong, so I had to discard the frame which would have otherwise destroyed the wheels at high speeds).Perhaps I should have specified that the welding is restricted to frame construction. I only want to build the frames for custom bikes, and then outfit them with bike parts (wheels, forks, gears, brakes, etc.). That's the part I need the welding for. I have an abundance of bike parts, but I need something to put them on!
Reply:Stick is one with out gas or mig with flux core. I would say tig would be the best. Post your location and check craigs list depend where you are.
Reply:Originally Posted by hiigaranPerhaps I should have specified that the welding is restricted to frame construction. I only want to build the frames for custom bikes, and then outfit them with bike parts (wheels, forks, gears, brakes, etc.). That's the part I need the welding for. I have an abundance of bike parts, but I need something to put them on!
Reply:Agree w/ Roy. I wouldn't even consider stick for welding thinwall tubing. I recommend a good 110v mig, and I don't mean a gasless wire feed, and practice on old frame parts 'til you feel you're getting a good strong weld. Once you learn to read the puddle you'll know if it's getting good penetration.                                                                   MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:Damn.Alright, well I know that if I get a different spool of wire and reverse the MIG polarity, I can run it without gas. How viable would this be? I think the penetration is less than a standard gassed MIG, but in my case, I don't think I'd see a difference with the thickness I'd be working with.Right?EDIT: Also, I'm in Sweden. Part of why I'm on such a tight budget is because we get raped with taxes. Everything is literally twice the price (or more) than it is in the good ol' US.
Reply:Originally Posted by hiigaranDamn.Alright, well I know that if I get a different spool of wire and reverse the MIG polarity, I can run it without gas. How viable would this be? I think the penetration is less than a standard gassed MIG, but in my case, I don't think I'd see a difference with the thickness I'd be working with.Right?
Reply:I can always clean up the weld with a grinder, right? And spatter can be chiseled or filed away. Is this issue down to aesthetics then? You mentioned the weld is hotter, though I'm not quite sure I understood what you meant about that.
Reply:Originally Posted by hiigaranI can always clean up the weld with a grinder, right? And spatter can be chiseled or filed away. Is this issue down to aesthetics then? You mentioned the weld is hotter, though I'm not quite sure I understood what you meant about that.
Reply:If you don't mind me asking bud, how old are you and what is your current employment?I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:The fellas above me explained it pretty well, but for doing bike frames, stick is no good. It is WAY harder then MIG welding. I have done fluxcore on bike frames before and it sucked. A good TIG or MIG welder is what you need to invest in.
Reply:Aren't a lot of bike frames brazed? I know a lot of road bike frames are for sure, what kind of bikes are you building?
Reply:Originally Posted by WyoRoyHotter would be a relative term in that there would be more penetration in the weld area at the same amp setting, using the same wire stick-out and welding at the same given arc length. As with most any welding processes, if you change any of those variables you also change the dynamics of the weld. Simple stated...keep your arc length and/or wire stick-out short or turn down the amps and your weld will also change...not a bad thing to correct/adjust in thin tube frame building either. Aesthetics would be your primary concern using a gasless MIG process if you adjusted or have taken into consideration the above parameters beforehand. As I said earlier, I believe at your skill level, with your monetary/economic constrictions and for the type of work you are envisioning the MIG process would be your best bet. I'd add that if the added cost of shielding gas isn't overly hard to bear for your pocketbook...go with shielding gas.
Reply:I believe that the question of, "...what kind of bikes are you building?" was probably meant to mean, "Are you building mtn. bikes, cruisers, antique penny farthings, board/tarmac track racing bikes, etc.? I could be wrong. Now as to the old school lugged frame bikes that were most always brazed...they were built like tanks as well...try lifting one sometime. There were even a goodly number of lug framed wooden tube framed bicycles glued and pinned together around the end of the 19th and the start of the early 20th century. The wood, or at times bamboo, used to construct them gave those frames a good deal of flex and the resulting resilience to handle the poor road conditions of their day. The brazing of the early steel and lug frames that came next actually added a considerable amount to the resilience of those old frames as there was a certain degree of flex from the process's use of filler (as well as the elasticity inherent in the filler itself) that allowed the tube ends inside the frame lugs to move about instead of jolting apart and delaminating or breaking the weld/braze joint. Liken them more or less (well, to be truthful...less) to the carbon fiber framed bikes of today. I ride a couple of mid '80s bike myself...occasionally. One is a Cannondale all aluminum TIG welded street/race bike that is very light weight (for it's time period), but bone jarring due to the large diameter aluminum tube necessitated by the design (thicker tube wall thickness meant less stress problems but little flex in the frame to absorb bumps) No lugs on the frame, just beautiful TIG welds. Those plastic fantastic carbon fiber bikes can be manufactured with the proper stress/tension placements incorporated into the design. Most of these carbon fiber frames (if not all) are simply glued together with industrial adhesives.Good luck with your plans for building and/or repairing bicycle frames. Post up some pictures of your triumphs as well as any disasters if you would be so kind.BTW, not sure if your -30 weather is in Fahrenheit or Celsius, but we get the occasional winter cold snap with -40 F that isn't all that uncommon. Usually you couldn't catch me out in that sort of weather, but up around -10 F and above I will slide out the garage door on my chrome-moly steel framed mtn. bike equipped with studded snow tires. Helps a great deal with traction problems and would be even more useful if I would ever get off my rear and convert the rim clinching friction brakes to a decent disk brake set-up. That conversion will probably never happen given that 60 years have come around since I was a new showroom model. I rather think I'd be more prone to installing proper fenders on that mtn. bike to rid myself of the cold wet racing stripe on my backside that came from the rear wheel spinning on the slushy streets.Best wishes.Last edited by WyoRoy; 05-09-2014 at 08:09 PM.Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:Sweden ?  It might be cheaper to relocate.
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1Sweden ?  It might be cheaper to relocate.
Reply:Hah, trust me, I would if I could! I want to go back to Australia!Here's a photo of the recumbent that I mentioned earlier, though not in its finished state:The controls were meant to be temporary, hence their crudeness. They were actually aluminium, and served as something to use while I obtained appropriate steel. Luckily, I didn't end up wasting time or money on that. I was so disappointed when I took it for a test ride and found out that I got the Ackermann wrong by a bit. The wheels were scuffing, and I deemed it unsafe to ride at anything past a slow jogging pace. At least it was a great learning experience. If and when I do make another one, it will be a two wheeler. I'm thinking a medium wheelbase front wheel drive, but I'll plan that at some later stage.
Reply:Originally Posted by hiigaranThe wheels were scuffing, and I deemed it unsafe to ride at anything past a slow jogging pace.
Reply:You seem talented, but a jack of all trades attitude was what i was not what i wanted to hear when it comes to welding. Ornamental art not a problem, but when i help people that have the "im good at everything attitude" they usually trip on there dlck and fall on there face when it comes to welding. This trade is not like picking up a new tool and getting used to it and moving on. Way more than that. And cheap does not fall into a welders vocabulary. Time, practice, and alot of money will be just enough to allow you to give bad advise. Im being honest.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by WyoRoyRelocate?!!! I take it you've never used a Eurorail pass in the summertime over in Europe and seen the Swedish gals walking through the train compartment with the shortest shorts and the absolute minimum of straining threads down the bottom seam of those said frayed denim short shorts. Tis a thing to behold!!! Healthy things they are!
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1OK, PICTURES ARE REQUIRED TO CONFIRM .
Reply:Originally Posted by WyoRoyGreat policy to be sure, but sadly none exist. My only excuse was I was drooling to much to focus on matters at hand.
Reply:Originally Posted by WyoRoyHad you there until the end of the very last sentence. Darn!
Reply:Originally Posted by WyoRoyI can't do much to rid your design's scuffing wheels...and fairly certain you know the cause and how to fix it. As far as the steering...run the steering arms together and connected to a small rack and pinion unit tied to a small steering wheel and you should see a worthwhile improvement in stability aided by the slower ratio from the rack and pinion unit being part of the new design. As designed in the photo I would guess you have an over abundance of bump steer as well as an over active muscle powered non-computerized steering system (that would be you)to contend with! An undermount chain tunnel running to a rear drive wheel would get you added flexibility in adding gearing to that set-up too.but do you have access to a oxygen and acetylene torch,   one can gas weld,  and it is a good process on light tube,  at times I still hook up the acetylene and a tip and weld with a wire or filler rod,  (some times I have used baling wire, and coat hangers, as filler rod),  if I do not have any commercial filler rod, when I first started  I did a lot of gas welding,   not so much now,  (I normally use propane (cutting torch) and one can not weld with propane properly, but can braze).but I would consider it as an option, and one can braze or hard solder with it as well, and normal they have the cutting torch attachment,  as well, do a search for OxyAcetylene Welding  or Oxygen Acetylene Welding ,there are a number of Utube videos,Last edited by Farmerboy; 05-10-2014 at 10:33 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by hiigaranWhile I don't have the chain added in that photo, there is a chaintube just under the frame, guided by an idler at the front. I did learn plenty from my mistakes in that first design, including different methods of steering, definitely. At the time, I didn't for for any under-seat steering components because I thought I might have clearance issues; something I was clearly paranoid about.That's fine. I appreciate the honesty. I didn't mean that in an arrogant sense that I think I'm highly experienced or anything.Sadly, as much as I have the time and I'm willing to practice, that darn money issue is a major hindrance.Although we are in different countries, and any values you give me would be mostly useless due to different economic factors, I'm still curious as to how much money you would expect someone to spend on a machine (excluding accessories) as a hobbyist.
Reply:as far as a hobbyist or DIY,  If your jack of all trades as you say, you will not want a junk machine that is just all most capable to do the little  jobs, I would say to buy new one is going to spend at least $100 most likely $200 to $1500  may be up to $4000 or more US$ for a welding machine depending on type and features and power,    I bought my son a small wire welder, a Hobart 140,  for close to the $500 figure, but by the time we got the gas and cart and a few other, items we were closer to the $700, the way I remember it,  some of the discount stores have Oxy acetylene out fits for about $200, (copy of US made equipment)  but tanks are extra,heaver duty sets more of course, some places rent tanks and sell contents, some have you buy a lease, and then buy the contents, some places will fill owner owned tanks,  (tanks can be expensive to get into).buying used can save money, if you can find good used, and not junk some one is trying to get rid of, one can save some moneys,
Reply:Originally Posted by Farmerboybut do you have access to a oxygen and acetylene torch,   one can gas weld,  and it is a good process on light tube,  at times I still hook up the acetylene and a tip and weld with a wire or filler rod,  (some times I have used baling wire, and coat hangers, as filler rod),  if I do not have any commercial filler rod, when I first started  I did a lot of gas welding,   not so much now,  (I normally use propane (cutting torch) and one can not weld with propane properly, but can braze).but I would consider it as an option, and one can braze or hard solder with it as well, and normal they have the cutting torch attachment,  as well, do a search for OxyAcetylene Welding  or Oxygen Acetylene Welding ,there are a number of Utube videos,
Reply:I suppose it would have the added benefit of me not having to rewire the house for cabling and fuses that can withstand the power requirements of electric-powered machines.
Reply:Given your budget constraints, this is what I would get, hands down.http://www.harborfreight.com/welding...der-66787.htmlThe TIG function of the machine is really very nice. Very smooth, stable arc.Definitely use 1/16 tungsten.The amperage will run down as low as 10 amps, so you will be able to weld thin tubing, but will need .045 wire or smaller.For your recumbents, if you are using 1 1/2", 16 ga. square tubing, you can use the stick function, equally smooth and predictable.Edit:Hah! Equally smooth and predictable FOR STICK. The Stick arc is not as smooth as the TIG arc, obviously.There are far better choices out there for sure, but vs. a 90 amp flux core machine, there is no question as to which is far superior for your needs.You will need to get good at scratch starts for TIG, but trust me, by the time you get good enough to tig up a safe bicycle, you will have enough practice with scratch starts to be dependable.You would also be hard-pressed to find a better duty cycle in the price range you are intimating.Last edited by geezerbill; 05-11-2014 at 10:52 AM.
Reply:You people need a 220 volt stick welder, in ww 2 aircraft tubing4130 chrome moly was stick welded .We welded our race car with 3/32 LH -70 7018 and so did Floyd Trevis sprint car builder! Mig is the down fall of wanabe welders.
Reply:Hiigaran, You need to play with the oxy/acetylene at work. I think that would help you in understanding metal and welding better; plus like Farmer boy mentioned, alot of bicycle frames were and still are brazed/welded using O/A. Sent from my XT907 using TapatalkLincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:Thanks guys. I'll definitely look into playing with fire at some point, and I'll also look into that TIG linked. I'll need to check the shipping rates on it first, but from what I'm seeing so far, I am liking it. Only 25 input amps is great, since once again, I won't have to worry about rewiring my place. I might need a stronger fuse, but I've got a whole collection of those!