DOT rules leave a large loop hole

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This is probably in the wrong place. I couldn't think of a better place to put it.I am in electrical geek so please take it easy. I was at shop the other day and they just bought 10 brand new ATVs. These things where supper small the smallest I have ever seen. I found is quite odd. So curiosity got the best of me and I had to ask why did they buy so many.  The shop owner said every truck got an ATV on it. Why because it is over 10k lbs but used for personal fun. They don't have to run log books or DOT # on their trucks noseeI can see maybe working for the first time you get hassled by DOT. but really how big a deal is it to have an inspection and get some numbers?I run single a single axle truck or a 4 door car. 75% of my work is with a laptop doing robots,  machines, etc. So I don't know the DOT rules. Are they getting that strick on you guys?
Reply:I had a hard time trying tell what you were saying, but it sounds like the "shop" is going to be temporary at best. If the shop is skirting the DOT then they probably don't have the proper licenses or even insurance.Tim Beeker.
Reply:They have been around probably 20 years. My real question is. Is the DOT cracking down on You guys that bad? Is 10k lbs the magic number for the laws to change?
Reply:I think this probably should be in OIf Topic, but we shall see what the admins do with it.I am not certain I follow the story you are telling.   The "shop" being an electrical contractor or a welding contractor? The ATVs are included on each company service truck?  I don't follow the thinking that including the ATV on the truck exempts the truck from DOT regulations.   I suppose if the ATV is used for off-road access to remote sites then the shop can get out from under federal DOT registration of the ATV, but many, if not all states, have registration requirements for off-road vehicles such as snowmobiles and ATVs, regardless of the purpose, so those regulations will certainly apply.-MondoLast edited by Mondo; 05-11-2012 at 09:22 AM.Reason: speklng corectuonsMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:Originally Posted by MondoI think this probably should be in OIf Topic, but we shall see what the admins do with it.I am not certain I follow the story you are telling.   The "shop" being an electrical contractor or a welding contractor? The ATVs are included on each company service truck?  I don't follow the thinking that including the ATV on the truck exempts the truck from DOT regulations.   I suppose if the ATV is used for off-road access to remote sites then the shop can get out from under federal DOT registration of the ATV, but many, if not all states, have registration requirements for off-road vehicles such as snowmobiles and ATVs, regardless of the purpose, so those regulations will certainly apply.-Mondo
Reply:Originally Posted by JeffKiper. . . The shop owner said every truck got an ATV on it. Why because it is over 10k lbs but used for personal fun. They don't have to run log books or DOT # on their trucks. . .
Reply:...and not to mention that it's a$$hats like this that try to pull fast ones on the law that force them to crack down even harder on guys that are legitimately only using their truck for recreational purposes.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:You guys are right they are trying to slide by using the RV idea. I don't really see any body going for that if you're running a trailblazer or an SA 300. I was just wondering if its that hard to get numbers or is it that DOT much of a PITA?
Reply:My Dad is a retired truck mechanic who is certified to perform annual DOT inspections. DOT is that Big of a PITA. However, ZT is right, guys like the ones you mention make it at least 10x harder for those of us that try to play by the rules. Really burns me! "The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson If the Lights are a Flashin', STAY OFF the tracks!!! It might be me at the Throttle...
Reply:I thought it was a stupid idea. I didn't think about them screwing the rest of the folks That play by the rules.
Reply:DON'T TELL ME THIS DOESN'T WORK !!  I DO IT ALL THE TIME!! "Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:You where delivering a birthday present to a friend right.
Reply:sure that might work on the way there, but how are they going to see it on the way back when it's covered it hay?There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:tsk tsk tsk . . . samm, don't you know you're not allowed to use straps on construction equipment?  That roller should be chained down at all 4 corners with 4 separate chains!MikeConstans Fides et IntegritasLincoln Weldanpower 150 ACAirco Aircomatic MIGet CAV II w/ spoolgunMillermatic 30a wirefeeder
Reply:That's going to cause an accident. I know if I was driving along and saw that my coffee would be out my nose and on the the windshield. 200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:That's hillarious!  If I was a trucker hauling an empty trailer to pick up something, I would do that!  The only thing that would make that better is to have the big WIDE LOAD sign with flashing lights above the cab and a chase car!Last edited by mb_welder; 05-11-2012 at 07:35 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Brink, M.E.tsk tsk tsk . . . samm, don't you know you're not allowed to use straps on construction equipment?  That roller should be chained down at all 4 corners with 4 separate chains!
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammDON'T TELL ME THIS DOESN'T WORK !!  I DO IT ALL THE TIME!!
Reply:Originally Posted by mb_welderThat's hillarious!  If I was a trucker hauling an empty trailer to pick up something, I would do that!  The only thing that would make that better is to have the big WIDE LOAD sign with flashing lights above the cab and a chase car!
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThe look on the DOT guys face at the scales would be priceless!
Reply:Used to do that on the lowbed all the time.   Had one DOT cop that was obviously bored and red lighted me and had me go around to the loaded lane.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAThat's funny.  I will have to suggest that to my buddy who has a low boy.   I did a few weeks ago see a triaxle tractor towing a quad low boy (60 tonner I believe) he had a bobcat 463 with the 36" bucket and wheel kit on it.  Worlds smallest skid loader being hauled by an oversized low boy.Lincoln 300 Vantage 2008300 Commander 1999SA250 1999SA200 1968Miller Syncrowave 200XMT350MPA/S-52E/xr-15Xtreme 12vs Millermatic 251 w/30A  Millermatic 251 Dialarc 250 Hypertherm 1250 GEKA & Bantom Ironwokers
Reply:I had to haul a dingo on my 43 ton capacity lowbed before.    a walk behind machine you could probably transport in the back of a ford ranger.Funny thing is it payed the same as hauling a cat 320 excavator or 980 front end loader.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Never heard of this before. Then today on I26 in Columbia I saw a f550 with hd trailer towing two toys.
Reply:Yes, DOT is cracking down hard,at least here in ohio. The atv thing will not work.I run around 15 trucks,12 or so trailers and have been hassled for everything from log books to marker lights even valve caps on tires. It's a big money grab, pure and simple.Obviously you havent given us enough info for anyone to really tell you how big of a PITA DOT would be for you...  If you're running one-tons locally with welding/mechanics set-ups, then get the DOT numbers, and you're good.  IF you're local, time-cards in the office are sufficient, no log-books needed.  Kinda depends on your location as to whether or not they want you to stop at scales,  If a legitimate company is trying to get away with dodging DOT, then they are fools. Its not THAT big of a deal....  DOT can smell money, a few violations could cost a lot more than playin it straight....  I kinda see being legit, (as far as permits, licenses, etc) as a cost of doing business.  If you can't make enough to paly by the rules, you need to re-evaluate your rates...As for the OVERSIZE banners on the tonka toy, they can actually give you a ticket for that!!!  A place I use to drive for had nice stainless signs that pinned on the front bumpers of the truck; each truck and each trailer had its own signs,so when you were O/S you ran them, and when you werent you'd just turn them around so it was just a piece of stainless.  One of the guys got a ticket when he'd forgot to flip the sign around...  complete BS, but when they're hungry, they do it!!!
Reply:agreed.  around here they are looking to dime you anyway they canVantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Originally Posted by curb guyYes, DOT is cracking down hard,at least here in ohio. The atv thing will not work.I run around 15 trucks,12 or so trailers and have been hassled for everything from log books to marker lights even valve caps on tires. It's a big money grab, pure and simple.
Reply:Originally Posted by TomHI was talking to the dad of a father/son sawmill operation. He said his boy got pulled over coming out the driveway, got ticketed for being overweight, the the officer told him what a big favor he was doing not making him get towed back the hundred feet to his drive.
Reply:Originally Posted by k45Ahh heck, for a 100' you could have brought out a forklift and unloaded him Ken
Reply:OK i cant get  these pics to rotate in my phone.This was running 75 mph down the highway and the one on the left was flopping. Attached Images
Reply:I have been dealing with DOT issues here in central WV here for years. Getting the DOT numbers and inspections and **** sucks, I did it, even had log books. With my business being a 24 hr service I could not really run legal and run my business. Then when the DOT official came to my shop and explained the law to me I found out I did not need DOT numbers, which is what I thought in the first place. I only got DOT numbers because of state cops who pulled me over and told me that I should have them. They were wrong. Many welders, nearly all that I know, are running illegal. Not me.The only thing that matters to the DOT is what the tag says on the inside of your door. If it says 10,000# or less, you do not need DOT numbers. It does not matter what your truck weight actually is.If your GVW tag in your door says 10,001# or more, and you are "operating in commerce",  then you are a commercial vehicle and you must have DOT numbers. No matter what you weigh. The operating in commerce means you are running a business or doing something to make money. You gotta stop at weigh stations, carry a log book, have a medical inspection card, and more. It does not matter what state your in, it is a federal law.I am guessing there are thousands of people breaking this law. Why I got pulled over three times about the law I have no idea. I see thirty trucks a day on the road that are not legal.I am over 10,000# in total truck weight, but not on my door tag. I have an F-250, gas engine,four wheeler, 10,000# on the door tag truck so I am not a commercial vehicle.The worst thing I can think of happening is if everything I ever welded instantly became UNWELDED
Reply:10,000# on the door tag truck so I am not a commercial vehicle.
Reply:OMG, will be doing this on the way back home tomorrow! Anyone coming from Norfolk, VA look for me. Hauling fencing to the beach tomorrow.RegardsDave
Reply:It does not matter what state your in, it is a federal law.
Reply:Bassboy is correct, if you connect a trailer to your truck the tag on the trailer is added to the truck GVW and could make you overweight. K45 is asking if we have ever seen a federal officer checking weights, all US DOT officers are federal officers, and the law that this discussion is about is the Federal Motor Carrier Act. So these laws are all federal and apply to all states.The worst thing I can think of happening is if everything I ever welded instantly became UNWELDED
Reply:I asked about distance and hours of service and was shown an important section exempting carriers operating within 125 air miles from log books. This is a rule that we use every day, even though using electronic logging. This is an important rule for the local service provider. RegardsDave
Reply:Originally Posted by NBS WeldingI am over 10,000# in total truck weight, but not on my door tag. I have an F-250, gas engine,four wheeler, 10,000# on the door tag truck so I am not a commercial vehicle.
Reply:My wife and I both heard what the DOT official told us when he came to my shop, took away my DOT #, and explained to us that if the door tag reads 10,000# or less and I am not pulling a trailer then it does not matter what the actual weight of the truck is. I made him write me a letter saying that "NBS Welding has no trucks with GVW over 10,000# and does not need a DOT number". I carry that letter with me in my truck along with that DOT official's business card. After being pulled over as many times as I have, obtaining a DOT number, and having the DOT number taken away by a Federal DOT official, all I can say is that if I get a ticket for being overweight then we are going to court!The worst thing I can think of happening is if everything I ever welded instantly became UNWELDED
Reply:Being over weight, simply means your vehicle is loaded over it's GVW. Doesn't matter if you are commercial or not and has nothing to do with DOT numbers.Most DOT cops don't bother with "normal" vehicles, at least around here. For what ever reason they don't want to bother the "civilians" with cars and small trucks. I've seen cars and light trucks with the bumpers just about dragging and cops simply don't bother to stop them for what ever reason, despite the fact they are dangerously over loaded. ( pet peeve of mine)  From the sound of it, your vehicle has "commercial" written all over it if you get pulled over regularly. You get scaled and your weight exceeds your GVW, you will loose in court most likely..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:So, how is everyone enjoying this third world type DOT we have thanks to out of control bureaucrats?Mr. HE
Reply:VT laws may be different from other states. Here pickups towing trailers don't suffer too badly until the combined weight exceeds 26000, or the trailer exceeds 10000. A multitude of people with 3/4 ton pickups thought they could register at 8600, or 9500 and pull a 10001 lb. trailer. They get tickets unless the truck is registered at GCW It seems like a money thing. You pay when registering or when stopped.
Reply:Only needs 4 chains if it weighs over 10k. And straps are fine.Yeah, I know, but it'll be ok!Lincoln Square wave 255Miller Vintage mig30a spoolgunThermal Dynamics Pacmaster 100xl plasmaSmith mc torchEllis 1600 band saw
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BVT laws may be different from other states. Here pickups towing trailers don't suffer too badly until the combined weight exceeds 26000, or the trailer exceeds 10000. A multitude of people with 3/4 ton pickups thought they could register at 8600, or 9500 and pull a 10001 lb. trailer. They get tickets unless the truck is registered at GCW It seems like a money thing. You pay when registering or when stopped.
Reply:Trying to keep up with the constant changing, evolving DOT regulations is "challenging" at best. What used to generally be relegated to 1 state agency, usually highway patrol, is now being "chased" by multiple state state agencies (ex: AZ,NM,CA). Additionally you have most every local agency wanting a piece of commercial enforcement as well. In our companies case, add in each states individual oversize/overweight requirements and again, more local municipalities (cities, towns,counties) are wanting a piece of the pie ($$$)....and we haven't even discussed the FMCSA and their SMS or the ever changing CDL requirements....and I'm one of the the very few fortunate CDL Professionals that is employed by a company that genuinely gives a hoot and will spend whatever $$$ necessary and use whatever manpower needed to keep us in compliance.Have enough / know enough to be dangerous
Reply:Now cops in many states look at the door and the tires and see what is.overloaded . The line trailer people when scaled are always over the tire cap even empty. Now they want to see build sheets on the tractor and trailer if it can take the load along with the tiedowns.
Reply:DOT is Federal MINIMUM- your state may have stricter regulations above Federal guidelines.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by NBS WeldingMy wife and I both heard what the DOT official told us when he came to my shop, took away my DOT #, and explained to us that if the door tag reads 10,000# or less and I am not pulling a trailer then it does not matter what the actual weight of the truck is. I made him write me a letter saying that "NBS Welding has no trucks with GVW over 10,000# and does not need a DOT number". I carry that letter with me in my truck along with that DOT official's business card. After being pulled over as many times as I have, obtaining a DOT number, and having the DOT number taken away by a Federal DOT official, all I can say is that if I get a ticket for being overweight then we are going to court!
Reply:It comes down to how you register and plate your truck. Not whether there is an ATV in the back.  My friend owns a propane company. The company owns the truck he drives. 3/4 ton. He was pulling his race car on the weekend. DOT stopped him, weighed him, found combination over 10,000 lbs. The book thrown at him. Had the truck been in his name, he would have been legal. Same as all the guys driving big diesel pushers, with air brakes down the road. Or the 18 year old kid who has never seen the inside of a truck, renting a 24 foot box van from Ryder. So those fellas with the ATVs in the back of their trucks are not avoiding anything. Sooner or later they will get caught. And ticketed for non proper registration, or not having what they need for the proper registration. Worst case, someone pulls out in front of one of their trucks and gets killed. At that point everything is under the micro-scope. Commercial driver being guilty until proven other wise. Lawyers favorite point to make. The truck or driver was not legal, so should not have been on the road. If not on the road, the accident would not have happened.  Never mind the dead client ran a stop sign and never looked.
Reply:VT says I put a pickup on a trailer, it weighs more than 10000 pounds I need a CDL, medical card etc. Truck only, no trailer 26000 lb. If I'm a farmer, camper trailer, or fireman I'm exempt! There are people out there who never drove anything bigger than a Prius, retire, and buy a motorhome, or giant fifth wheel, no license or training!