Why would anyone use a triangle waveform? why not use square @ higher frequency?

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I see some of these newer tig welders have what appear to be "useless" options.From reading about the history of tig welders, I have the following understanding1. Sine wave was the original unmodified wave everyone started using it is the way AC electrically naturally fluctuates back and forth. 2. Square wave was developed to get the energy into the metal most effciently instead of gradually getting to peak 100%  EN energy and then gradually getting to getting to opposite 100% EP.So if that is the case why the hell would anyone want the opposite which is a triangular wave form, in which the machine is ALWAYS TRANSITIONING FROM EN to EP and never stays at 100% for more than an instant?And then there is soft square wave form. Seems just as silly.Yes I have googled the subjects and read vague reasons why one might use the other, but I dont' hear anyone signing the praises of these new waveforms, nor do I see any good youtube videos showing side by side square wave vs trianglethis video is close the first two minutes are babbly, just skip to the 2:00 to see so is there anyone that welds thin aluminum and uses triangle wave all the time??? Is is really that much better than the more common square wave machiens?
Reply:Soft square wave is more like the transformer square wave.  The "Advanced" square wave is a louder, quicker wetting arc which the shoulders of the square wave tend to be a little more "square".  The triangle wave form allows for better control on thin sheets of aluminum and from my experience a faster freezing puddle that still wets out.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:The videos that Miller did with Chris are some of the best. There are so many little things that can be picked up if you know what to look for.
Reply:Reading this interview with a former Miller employee . . . .http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...interview.htmlIt appears the "triangle" waveform is in the form of a sawtooth.  If true, it would give you the initial hot start to create the puddle, then taper down reduce the average current.Dynasty 300DXSmith He/Ar gas mixerMM350PHobart Handler 120Smith LW7, MW5, AW1A
Reply:I believe a lot of the "useless" features on these machines are useful only to those with skill levels that call for the difference.  So not useless to those who use them to get that subtle edge.  I tried all 4 waves when I had my dynasty.  There's certainly a difference there.  Transformer sine wave vs. inverter square wave is very different.  My skill level will never call for these features. I personally used Zap's machine which is a giant old transformer.  There's a thread here where he welded tinfoil with it.
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedIt appears the "triangle" waveform is in the form of a sawtooth.  If true, it would give you the initial hot start to create the puddle, then taper down reduce the average current.
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255I believe a lot of the "useless" features on these machines are useful only to those with skill levels that call for the difference.
Reply:If you look at a graph of the wave, heat input is the area under the curve. With a triangular wave (or the soft square), the weldor benefits from lower overall heat input but you get the punch of a higher peak current. High speed DC pulse benefits in a similar way. People assume that because they can't see a difference in the puddle when using high speed pulse that there is no benefit. That's not the case. You can't compare the skills and knowledge base of Chris Razor and Kevin. I'm not sure why you are on this crusade.Last edited by zank; 07-18-2014 at 07:39 AM.
Reply:Leave me out of this please....From the desk of Kevin CaronTrying to be the best me I can!www.kevincaron.comAHP Alpha Tig 200x MillerMatic 251Miller Syncrowave 200
Reply:Originally Posted by zank  With a triangular wave (or the soft square), the weldor benefits from lower overall heat input but you get the punch of a higher peak current.  ..............I'm not sure why you are on this crusade.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderYes it's true the triangle waveform is an up and down sawtooth wave, however I do not logically see how you come to that conclusion. These machines run at 60hz and faster! Are you implying a puddle is made in 1/60th of a second?
Reply:Originally Posted by kevinacaronLeave me out of this please....
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderI'm not a math wiz, but mathematically the triangle and sine, and square, all have the same amplitude and thus all have the SAME peak current The triangle might look more pointy, but that does not mean it is higher.
Reply:Originally Posted by zankYou can't compare the skills and knowledge base of Chris Razor and Kevin.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderYes I AM ON THE CRUSADE TO UNDERSTAND WELDING WAVE FORMS!!! lol, WAY TO HYPERBOLE!!! Look I'm not here to start an arguement. just to learn.Kevin's video is better than Chris's IMHO, more informative too. Just wish he tested out more things. I'm not a math wiz, but mathematically the triangle and sine, and square, all have the same amplitude and thus all have the SAME peak current The triangle might look more pointy, but that does not mean it is higher. Anyways, I can get people's opinioins on this all day long, not really looking for opinions, looking to understand from people that have experience.  seems like few actually use it and even fewer have taken the time to show if one waveform is truely beter than another, or if the subtelties are so small it's just a matter of tweaking settings to get something similar. for exampale. sine wave at high frequency mathematically approaches a triangle curve, therefore high frequency sine might be pretty close to traingle waveform.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelder I'm not a math wiz, but mathematically the triangle and sine, and square, all have the same amplitude and thus all have the SAME peak current The triangle might look more pointy, but that does not mean it is higher.
Reply:"Look, there isn't a lot of information out there because guys spend a lot of time experimenting with and learning on their own equipment and weldments. It's a laborious process. Not everyone wants to give that away."LOL, in psychology this is called "projecting"just because you do not feel like sharing does not mean that others feel the same way. In fact the very forum you post to is proof that you are in the minority. I'll probably try out a machine like this sooner and post back my experiences since no one on this forum besides Kevin has (to the best of my knowledge) done so. I'm not into discussing theoretical topics with people that have no experience in them.  or debating who has the best youtube videos with people that do not even have any youtube videos.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderLOL, in psychology this is called "projecting"just because you do not feel like sharing does not mean that others feel the same way. In fact the very forum you post to is proof that you are in the minority. I'll probably try out a machine like this sooner and post back my experiences since no one on this forum besides Kevin has (to the best of my knowledge) done so. I'm not into discussing theoretical topics with people that have no experience in them.  or debating who has the best youtube videos with people that do not even have any youtube videos.
Reply:Cool. Good luck. Maybe you can get a really flat 1" bead.
Reply:Originally Posted by zankCool. Good luck. Maybe you can get a really flat 1" bead.
Reply:Sad part is Chris or Kevin could care less , but people have the kindergarten mentality that my dad can beat up your dad.Lame.
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldSoft square wave is more like the transformer square wave.  The "Advanced" square wave is a louder, quicker wetting arc which the shoulders of the square wave tend to be a little more "square".  The triangle wave form allows for better control on thin sheets of aluminum and from my experience a faster freezing puddle that still wets out.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderSad part is Chris or Kevin could care less , but people have the kindergarten mentality that my dad can beat up your dad.Lame.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabAnd in the shop you're what's called an, "Askhole".Almost every single one of your threads is asking how something works, how to do something, or where to get a certain product. And in almost every single thread you don't like the responses you get and counter with other "facts" in an attempt to prove that you already know better. If you don't like what you hear, stop asking questions.  Do some of your own research for once and stop trying to get a consensus on your opinion.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderso is there anyone that welds thin aluminum and uses triangle wave all the time??? Is is really that much better than the more common square wave machiens?Shovelon,,   well said,,,  thank you......From the desk of Kevin CaronTrying to be the best me I can!www.kevincaron.comAHP Alpha Tig 200x MillerMatic 251Miller Syncrowave 200
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabAnd in the shop you're what's called an, "Askhole".Almost every single one of your threads is asking how something works, how to do something, or where to get a certain product. And in almost every single thread you don't like the responses you get and counter with other "facts" in an attempt to prove that you already know better. If you don't like what you hear, stop asking questions.  Do some of your own research for once and stop trying to get a consensus on your opinion.
Reply:" Miller's default settings are damn good "just to be clear are you talking about Miller GD beer or the Miller welding machine LOLThanks for the nice explanation
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelder" Miller's default settings are damn good "just to be clear are you talking about Miller GD beer or the Miller welding machine LOLThanks for the nice explanation
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawHa ha,  owned!    Build anymore photo booths recently (or at all) aluminum welder?   Terry is God in my book when it comes to Aluminum TIG.  Great explanation from him.   Though I honestly think there are very few folks who have enough skill on this forum to use many of these advanced features effectively.   Also the real benefit seems to be a bit of time savings, which is important in a business setting but same/or similar results should be obtainable with far simpler machine for the hobbiest.