Bending / Tubing Issues

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Hey Guys, Trying to bend Some Tube and there is a constant failure rate happening.First a little about me, I'm the Lead Operator / Programmer Here at COBB Tuning on our New BLM Elect80 Tube Bender. I'm new to the Tube Bending industry . I how ever am a fast learner and do pick up rather quickly. the issues I am having are revolving around Aluminum Tubing. Stainless Steel I can bend all day with no Issues. Now onto my Issue. . . .Machine : BLM_Elect80 (Mandrel)Tooling: Bend Die 3"CLRMaterial :AL - 6061 T1 OD 2" &1/2" // ID 2.37" // WT .065 Seamless RoundAL - 6063 T52 OD 2" &1/2" // ID 2.37" // WT .065 Seamless RoundAL - 5052 T0 OD 2" &1/2" // ID 2.37" // WT .065 Seamless RoundWith the 6061 It was first Ordered as T6, this was to Brittle to Bend, So It snapped on first bend. Then brought down to a T1. This Process Caused the tube to Oval. Wouldn't fit on the Mandrel and thus also Caused it to Snap.With the 6063 T52 It showed up Oval and Had Varying Wall thickness. This material was set aside , Some of it was Oval Enough to Try and out of 10 bends only two worked.With the 5052-0 It Appears it's as well To soft or To Brittle.It snapped on first bend as well.Can anyone lend any Ideas to how I may fix these issues?I have already Changed the Pressures from the bender etc...We are Leaning towards using the 6063 T52.Wondering If a Heating Process Before Bending is suggested or anything else?
Reply:Welcome, I'm new to site as well. I Bend aluminum pipe/ tube all the time, never thin wall like yourself. More like.125 wall but always 6063 t5 and never any problems. From what I understand, 6061 can be bent but must be heated first. I read a great thread a week or so ago on propane heating and bending of 6061 pipe, but just cant remember where. I'll look around. Hope this helps.
Reply:Yea I am finding that anything in a .065 wall or a .071 wall is a very rare tube and can only be ordered in a mill Run. (about 2,000 pounds) So Sourcing a Sample to bend and then to proceed and get a mill run is like pulling teeth.One Option we are now looking into is a Annealing Oven.
Reply:I feel your pain. I had a job last week and the engineer spec'd a railing from 6061 t6 anodized tubing. Nobody stock anodized tube, tons of pipe!! I was able to do it in mill and send it out for coating after fab. Major pain in a** cam out nice
Reply:I only bend steel tubing and nothing smaller than .065, which for steel is pretty common, 14 ga or so.  Can't help you with AL but at those tubing sizes a 3" CLR seems pretty tight. Have you checked with a process engineer at BLM or an independent to make sure the material and design are suitable for that bending application and you have the correct tooling?  With a high end mandrel machine like that you should be able to do .065 all day long, it's not that thin a wall.
Reply:When I worked as the head R&D fabricator for Pro Armor (ATV/UTV accessories) we used 6063-T1 tube in diameters from .500" to 1.375" and wall thicknesses from .065" to .188".Bend radii were usually 1.5 to 3 x the diameter of the tube. We could bend without a mandrel and had acceptable bends for our applications with some flattening in the bend area. Other applications required better concentricity so a mandrel was used with no problem.Maybe try dropping the Temper on your 6063 to the T1 and see how that goes.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:2.5" OD tube X 1.5 =3.75 CLR3.0 CLR / 2.5 OD = 1.2 CLR....The 3.0 CLR is too small for the tube sizeBlackbird
Reply:Mandrel bending can go as tight as 1Dhttp://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Originally Posted by dstevensHave you checked with a process engineer at BLM or an independent to make sure the material and design are suitable for that bending application and you have the correct tooling?
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabMandrel bending can go as tight as 1D
Reply:Originally Posted by pslwelderI feel your pain. I had a job last week and the engineer spec'd a railing from 6061 t6 anodized tubing. Nobody stock anodized tube, tons of pipe!! I was able to do it in mill and send it out for coating after fab. Major pain in a** cam out nice
Reply:Here is a Image of what's happening.The Material in this Image is a 5052 T0 Aluminum , 2.5" .065 wall
Reply:What are you using for lubrication?Does your bender have pressure die boost?http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Wow COBB Tuning is kind of a big deal !!!!! These Guys tune Mazda,Honda,Subaru and more. Nice to see you guys one here !!!! WelcomeI.B.E.W Electrician and Damn Proud of It !!!! .Virtus Junxit Mors Non Separabit http://www.shrinershospitalsforchildren.org/
Reply:For Lubrication I am using :IRMCO GEL® and IRMCO EXTREME To be Specific : GEL : 980-000 & 980-301Extreme : 460-81AWe have Tried Using them at different moments to see how each reacts. The Irmco Extreme Is what is Made specific for Aluminum tubing. I have also tried spraying a Dry Silicon Lubricant On our Wiper Dye. Yea I have a 5 ton booster located in the collet
Reply:Originally Posted by Sparky#1Wow COBB Tuning is kind of a big deal !!!!! These Guys tune Mazda,Honda,Subaru and more. Nice to see you guys one here !!!! Welcome
Reply:Is the internal mandrel over or under extended?  Is this a solid mandrel or the ball type on a 'chain' ?You said "We have Tried Using them at different moments to see how each reacts."  I'm not clear on how you are lubricating your internal mandrels when I read this statement.Last edited by zipzit; 03-23-2012 at 01:19 PM.
Reply:The Mandrel is set to Tangent , and is a ball type. (3 balls are installed can go up to 5) The lubing process can be done by hand with a brush and or feed through the mandrel with computer controls. We are doing it by hand. So lubing the inside of the tube then placing it on the mandrel and bending. We use the same process with our Stainless Steal and have no issues.
Reply:I would like to add in that I have gotten more Help so far on this forum then I have on any other! Thank you for that!
Reply:Originally Posted by MClark@COBBTuningI would like to add in that I have gotten more Help so far on this forum then I have on any other! Thank you for that!
Reply:Originally Posted by MClark@COBBTuning.... Then brought down to a T1. This Process Caused the tube to Oval. Wouldn't fit on the Mandrel and thus also Caused it to Snap.
Reply:Originally Posted by MClark@COBBTuningThe Mandrel is set to Tangent , and is a ball type. (3 balls are installed can go up to 5) The lubing process can be done by hand with a brush and or feed through the mandrel with computer controls. We are doing it by hand. So lubing the inside of the tube then placing it on the mandrel and bending. We use the same process with our Stainless Steal and have no issues.
Reply:Originally Posted by MClark@COBBTuningYea I have a 5 ton booster located in the collet
Reply:Hopefully you can get this figured out. I keep trying to find places that can bend my intercooler piping for my remote mount turbo, but every company has rejected doing it or wants ~40+ per bend. BTW I am running a AP in my turbo RX8, I wish you guys would have continued the progress with it
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabWhen you say "This process caused the tube to oval" are you saying that when the clamp die and the pressure die were engaged that it deformed the tubing and caused it to go out of round?What is the diameter and the pitch of the mandrel? What material is it made from? Aluminum bronze or Hard chromed steel?Originally Posted by bumblebeerx8Hopefully you can get this figured out. I keep trying to find places that can bend my intercooler piping for my remote mount turbo, but every company has rejected doing it or wants ~40+ per bend. BTW I am running a AP in my turbo RX8, I wish you guys would have continued the progress with it
Reply:Originally Posted by MClark@COBBTuningThe Mandrel is set to Tangent ,
Reply:So the "nose" Is set to where I was told by BLM to set it, That's at tangent right when the nose goes into being straight with the rest of the mandrel. I have a Chromed one showing up tomorrow. The tooling we have was suggested to us from the Tooling manuf and from BLM and research done on the web.
Reply:Originally Posted by MClark@COBBTuningSo the "nose" Is set to where I was told by BLM to set it, That's at tangent right when the nose goes into being straight with the rest of the mandrel. I have a Chromed one showing up tomorrow. The tooling we have was suggested to us from the Tooling manuf and from BLM and research done on the web.
Reply:^ I have that one my wall lol! I'm going to set up the AL setup sometime today, I'll take pics of where everything sits etc... I'm going to double check the material of the mandrel so I'm not misleading you.
Reply:okay so the mandrel is a 3 ball 2.5" ST.CH (steel Chrome) sorry about that.
Reply:Here is the Mandrel and I'm pointing with my Caliper to the Tangent Line. It's kind of hard to see.
Reply:Delring wiper works, Till it broke... Now I am onto the Chrome plated and it's not doing so well. Trying to get another delring and more material.
Reply:Originally Posted by MClark@COBBTuningYes, there actually confirmed to come out on March 27th.
Reply:Originally Posted by MClark@COBBTuningDelring wiper works, Till it broke... Now I am onto the Chrome plated and it's not doing so well. Trying to get another delring and more material.
Reply:yea delrin :P BLM is here and we are making progress. Yea I'm using a Spray lube that he brought with him, I'm not sure what the name of it is. It's a lube I know that much.
Reply:Originally Posted by MClark@COBBTuningyea delrin :P BLM is here and we are making progress. Yea I'm using a Spray lube that he brought with him, I'm not sure what the name of it is. It's a lube I know that much.
Reply:Especially one with a 3" mandrel in the other hand
Reply:lmao
Reply:So the Results, New Wiper = Chrome Plated And Moved Mandrel BACK From Tangent As well as the wiper moved back away from tangent. Can bend 6061 T1 /T0 .065 Aluminum now!!! Yay!!!
Reply:Nice! Can you make an aluminum cat back exhaust for my mazdaspeed3 now? Tell Evan G. chimmike said wassup.Hobart EZ-Tig newbie.
Reply:pretty common occurance we send then off for anneal first then mandrel bend the fix for any flatting is pushing a ball bearing thru the bend with a punch some break some don't kinda the nature of the beast if you want some more detail send me a pmMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldingWookiesome break some don't kinda the nature of the beast if you want some more detail send me a pm