6061-T6 project questions

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A friend wants to reinforce this angle support (1"X1.5") which as the title says, is 6061-T6. I wanted to get some advice on the best way to accomplish this seemingly simple project. It won't be heat treated after welding, not anodized and not in any harsh environment. I have a Lincoln PT225 with straight Argon. My first question is filler material. I've tried to read as many threads as possible and it seems like the consensus is that most people have better results with 4043.Secondly, I'm not sure if I should bevel or not bevel. I can weld both sides although the outside edge has to be fairly low profile because it's adjacent to a fixation point. The inside (facing us) has no restrictions. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated - thanks
Reply:Well since no one has any suggestions I will start.4043 filler is trash. Sure the consensus of amateurs is positive because they have no experience and it flows out fast giving the impression of quality. 4043 is very dependent on base metal dilution for it's strength. Amateurs barely get any penetration and thus little base metal dilution. You are not using any helium to assist in penetration and base metal dilution and that compounds the situation. You are much better off using 5356 high strength filler. Some practice before hand will make it easier to use 5356, not that is that hard to use. Yes beveling the groove welds will help you lay a weld on the edges. Lastly weld as fast as possible, and water quench immediately after extinguishing arc to promote natural aging.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Thanks for the info! With my 225 amp welder, would you recommend using helium? All my aluminum experience has been with thin wall material (gas tanks, boxes, etc) so I wasn't sure about how much power I'd need. It's 1/4" thick but the pieces are relatively small.... I'd definitely get some scrap to do mock up practic before the actual piece. Again, thanks
Reply:I don't think you need helium. 225 amps is plenty. I would up my balance, lower your freq, and definitely use 5356 which welds hotter and faster. Speed is your friend, so lay into it and don't let heat saturation get out of hand. If it does, let it cool a bit before resuming welding. That is called inter-pass temperature control. Some people baby the crap out of the weld and before they know it the part turns into a giant blob of molten metal. I will actually gouge using that phenomenon.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Here's a better picture of the whole piece with the proximity of the mounting bolts. I'm thinking bevel both sides, tack the 4 corners and have at it. I'm getting some scraps along with it so I can dial in the amperage etc. if anyone has any other input they'd like to share, I'd love to hear it.
Reply:I weld a LOT of aluminum 6061. I agree with Shovelon with 5356. I rarely if ever use 4043, it is crap and used I believe way too often because people don't actually know how to weld aluminum because of it's slightly better "wetting" properties. 225 should be more than adequate for your relatively small project. As far as beveling the outside edge, don't bother, just cut the angle shorter on both ends so you are creating a 1/4" fillet wed with 100% penetration to your inside fillet. Just get out the die grinder if you have to relieve a smidge around your bolt head. As far as Amps, turn your dial all the way up, you'll need it to establish a puddle then back off to keep it nice nice. Start from the outside edges and (after first putting on 3 nice tacks on each triangle at the points) and weld the outboard tabs with the through hole, then the 1/4" fillet, then inside of the fillet and back up to the start. As far as heat, it's your friend with aluminum and your worst enemy. It's so conductive it pulls the heat away from your weld pool, many times if you do not have enough amps or helium to help, you NEED to preheat the piece a few hundred degrees. But that's just on bigger heavy stuff. Your little bracket is cake.Ryan
Reply:Perfect - thanks so much!
Reply:I made some some coupons to practice with and see if I could get everything dialed in. Used 2x2" .250 6061 with 1/8" 5356 rods. Had the machine running 220 amps with the balance biased high.  Preheated the piece to about 200 degrees and went into it with full pedal. I could easily watch the puddle form on both sides and merge before moving ahead and adding filler. The first few times I moved along pretty quick and had very nice, tight beads but when I broke them apart there was almost no penetration. After that I slowed my movement down and let the puddle cook longer but then  the puddle just seemed to get bigger and spread out instead of penetrating deeper. Here are some pics:
Reply:Here is another attempt. I'm not sure where to go from here: do I just need a welder with more capacity or is it a flaw in technique? Again, thanks in advance for any suggestions
Reply:Originally Posted by Steffan... with the balance biased high.
Reply:I started with a short taper on the tungsten which shortly after balled up nicely. On my machine there is no percentage number on the balance, it's just a rotor you dial with cleaning on one side and penetration on the other... I put it as far to the penetration side while maintaining a clean puddle.. I'd say it was 75-80% towards penetration. I only have 1/8" filler
Reply:Can you move the gussets out so you get an outside corner weld? Even if you can move them out half their thickness would make for a strong weld and only require a small fillet on the inside if any.
Reply:Originally Posted by SteffanI started with a short taper on the tungsten which shortly after balled up nicely. On my machine there is no percentage number on the balance, it's just a rotor you dial with cleaning on one side and penetration on the other... I put it as far to the penetration side while maintaining a clean puddle.. I'd say it was 75-80% towards penetration. I only have 1/8" filler
Reply:No, you are correct, in the last set I was holding off on the filler thinking I might be able to keep the puddle hotter with more penetration but it didn't seem to make much difference - it just made the puddle bigger, not deeper
Reply:If 4043 sucks so bad why do they continue to make it?Not my fault you guys cant make it work.And it's starting to piss me off.Suggesting that everyone should abandon using it is just plain WRONG....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterIf 4043 sucks so bad why do they continue to make it?Not my fault you guys cant make it work.And it's starting to piss me off.Suggesting that everyone should abandon using it is just plain WRONG....zap!
Reply:I use way more 4043 than 5356.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTI use way more 4043 than 5356.
Reply:Your heat is all over the place....hot...cold..hot.....Remember that the filler rod is and acts as a heatsink...in your pictures you can see where each dip of filler cooled your puddle and decreased penetrationMiller TrailBlazer 251Miller HF-250-1Miller MaxStar 150 STLHyperTherm PowerMax 380 plasmaLincoln PowerMig 180Millermatic 252Miller Diversion 180
Reply:xryan is correct...you're not adding enough filler wire, and your oscillations are too far apart. This results in not enough throat thickness. A slim throat area of a weld is where it will usually fail.Rich
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterIf 4043 sucks so bad why do they continue to make it?Not my fault you guys cant make it work.And it's starting to piss me off.Suggesting that everyone should abandon using it is just plain WRONG....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI use 4043 when the drawing specifies. I order a small batch with test reports and use as required. A copy of the best report is attached to the weld certification.  Otherwise AWS permits the upgrade to 4943. However even then 5356 is used 80% of the time. That would be about 800 lbs a year.
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTI just don't like how it welds really, why does it make the arc green?
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTThe drawings I normally get are on a napkin, cardboard, or a 2x4. I don't think I ever got one that had stated what filler was to be used, hell some of them don't even give all the measurements just an estimate or a "finger length".The 5356 I do have I use for stuff like cylinder heads, blocks, and outboards. I just don't like how it welds really, why does it make the arc green?
Reply:I have a couple of hints to possibly make your welds a little better. First, increase your rod angle in relation to the plate. There should be roughly a 90* angle between the tungsten and the filler rod. I see a lot of students that have the rod angle too low, like <5*, the rod gets preheated/too hot before adding it to the puddle and the puddle wets out very quickly making it hard to control the throat dimension. If you increase the angle a bit it gives a little more body to the puddle when initially adding filler. The problem is magnified when making fillet welds. Two, make sure that the puddle is forming correctly before adding filler. From the looks of the penetration, the very corner of the weld (root) is not molten before you are adding filler. I see a lot of people get a little C-shaped puddle formed, the molten edges of the puddle are on the plates but the corner is not molten yet, and then add filler to the center of the "C". This will cause incomplete penetration in the root. It's very easy to get a good looking weld that isn't penetrated to the very corner. If your heat is correct and the torch angle is correct, you want about 10* push angle, you will get a nice puddle formed which includes molten metal in the very root of the joint. After there is a complete puddle formed all the way to the corner then you can add filler. It's difficult to keep the complete puddle formed when your machine may be a little low on amps and it's very easy to get the c-shaped puddle formed and just add filler. Honestly, I see this problem all the time. It's why whenever I fail someone on a test I bring the failed specimens with me. There is nothing worse that telling an aluminum welder, with beautiful welds, that their welds are junk. They always want to argue. It's difficult to argue with a weldor stamped specimen with obvious defects. I use 4043 all the time, it's a fine filler metal. Like anything, it has it's intricacies.Originally Posted by burnsI have a couple of hints to possibly make your welds a little better. First, increase your rod angle in relation to the plate. There should be roughly a 90* angle between the tungsten and the filler rod. I see a lot of students that have the rod angle too low, like <5*, the rod gets preheated/too hot before adding it to the puddle and the puddle wets out very quickly making it hard to control the throat dimension. If you increase the angle a bit it gives a little more body to the puddle when initially adding filler. The problem is magnified when making fillet welds. Two, make sure that the puddle is forming correctly before adding filler. From the looks of the penetration, the very corner of the weld (root) is not molten before you are adding filler. I see a lot of people get a little C-shaped puddle formed, the molten edges of the puddle are on the plates but the corner is not molten yet, and then add filler to the center of the "C". This will cause incomplete penetration in the root. It's very easy to get a good looking weld that isn't penetrated to the very corner. If your heat is correct and the torch angle is correct, you want about 10* push angle, you will get a nice puddle formed which includes molten metal in the very root of the joint. After there is a complete puddle formed all the way to the corner then you can add filler. It's difficult to keep the complete puddle formed when your machine may be a little low on amps and it's very easy to get the c-shaped puddle formed and just add filler. Honestly, I see this problem all the time. It's why whenever I fail someone on a test I bring the failed specimens with me. There is nothing worse that telling an aluminum welder, with beautiful welds, that their welds are junk. They always want to argue. It's difficult to argue with a weldor stamped specimen with obvious defects. I use 4043 all the time, it's a fine filler metal. Like anything, it has it's intricacies.
Reply:Fillet welds in a corner can be difficult because of the heat sink factor. It can be tough to start a weld there because the heat from the arc gets spread around to the three surrounding sides (instead of two for a regular fillet). So do the whole weld in one pass, start at the edge, weld toward the inside corner, and continue around the bend. The flowing puddle will transfer the heat better into the corner than the arc can.As you have noticed you will get very little penetration at the bottom of you groove. If the appearance of a small tight bead is important, you will need to bevel your gusset to get enough thickness at the throat.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:I think part of my problem is as you describe above that, in addition to the heat sink was frying my electrode (3/32") at max amperage which would cause my arc to scatter further exacerbating the problem. I'm stepping up to a 1/8" 2% lanthanated to see if that helps... Nothing was available locally so I had to order - I'll post results when it arrives.
Reply:Originally Posted by SteffanI think part of my problem is as you describe above that, in addition to the heat sink was frying my electrode (3/32") at max amperage which would cause my arc to scatter further exacerbating the problem. I'm stepping up to a 1/8" 2% lanthanated to see if that helps... Nothing was available locally so I had to order - I'll post results when it arrives.
Reply:Just a little update: moved up to 1/8" 2% lanthanated tungsten. It kept its shape better than the 3/32" 2% thoriated. I've followed everyone's advice: torch and filler angle (best I can tell) but still,have mixed results. I can keep the peddle maxed out (230 amps) and watch the puddle form all the way to the root. starting from the outside edge I need to be careful because it tends to want to collapse the edge - so good penetration in the beginning but then it tapers of *** I move along and add filler until the end of the run (which makes sense).
Reply:Nice looking beat but penetration was not great in the root - I could see the puddle form in the root but maybe I was moving too fast? It almost seemed like the puddle would spill in to the root dissipating the penetration?
Reply:I played around and tried advancing slower - making sure I dwelled in the root before adding filler. Penetration was decent but the bead looked like a big blob. Again, I want to thank everyone for taking the time to look at my post and offer suggestions. I'm still not sure if it's a technique issue or I just need a bigger machine.
Reply:Here's a picture of the tungsten - sometimes it forms a nice ball, other times it is more flat and deformed. This was at 12-14 cfm
Reply:I'm puzzled by your lanthanated balling. That doesn't happen on my machine when using AC. Post 32 appears to be an issue with your travel angle: The pointed shape left after daubing the filler into the puddle is generally indicative of a travel angle that needs to be more perpendicular to the work. I suspect that your travel speed was also too slow. Both angle and speed will contribute to the lack of definition. All told, I think you've made progress.-Chris
Reply:Originally Posted by Mr. SmithI'm puzzled by your lanthanated balling. That doesn't happen on my machine when using AC.
Reply:I played around with the balance quite a bit.  I tried leaving it all but maxed on penetration but the weld puddle would get real dirty in spite of cleaning the material first and even doing a light pass over the area with the balance set on cleaning. The tungsten was also inconsistent - I think that picture was with the setting on 'auto balance'. sometimes it would ball up like the image, sometimes it would almost square itself off... Almost like it was getting too hot which, like you said, doesn't make a lot of sense for an 1/8" electrode.
Reply:Ok, an update since I finely got some time to spend in the shop... Gonna make this the longest thread for the smallest project:Was a little more meticulous about cleaning, preheat and balance and am getting decent penetration and the tungsten is maintaining. I think on this one I might have been going too slow as the bottom started to fall out?
Reply:My biggest issue now is that the puddle is distorted. I've been very conscientious about maintaining the torch and feed angles. I've tried feeding at almost 90 degrees to as little as 45 (as steep as I could get to the cup) but it didn't seem to make much difference
Reply:I also tried feeding in less filler but the puddle looked about the same it just became concave with a little undercut
Reply:Originally Posted by SteffanOk, an update since I finely got some time to spend in the shop... Gonna make this the longest thread for the smallest project:Was a little more meticulous about cleaning, preheat and balance and am getting decent penetration and the tungsten is maintaining. I think on this one I might have been going too slow as the bottom started to fall out?
Reply:Originally Posted by SteffanMy biggest issue now is that the puddle is distorted. I've been very conscientious about maintaining the torch and feed angles. I've tried feeding at almost 90 degrees to as little as 45 (as steep as I could get to the cup) but it didn't seem to make much difference
Reply:Good info thanks! That is actually with 5356 filler - I'll work on my filler technique. Much appreciated!
Reply:Originally Posted by SteffanGood info thanks! That is actually with 5356 filler - I'll work on my filler technique. Much appreciated!
Reply:Keep practicing. Almost there. Learn to use 5356, I'd recycle the 4043 for the most part. Your 225 is MORE than enough for what you are doing. Preheat with aluminum is your friend before lighting off the torch. You are going WAY to slow travel speed. If I was teaching you, I'd give you an aluminum plate and just use the torch to learn how the puddle forms and behaves. THEN run lots and lots of beads in the flat before you even attempt a fillet weld. You're almost there. And good to see you got some 1/8" tungsten the 3/32 will never take the heat for aluminum. That ball on the end looks good in post #33 for a fillet as the arc will "wet out" both side of the corner better. I didn't catch what machine it is, transformer or inverter?RyanMiller Multimatic 200 tig/spool gun/wireless remoteMillermatic 350P, Bernard/XR Python gunsMiller Dynasty 350, Coolmate 3.5 & wireless remoteCK WF1 TIG wire feederMiller Spectrum 375 XtremeOptrel e684Miller Digital EliteMiller Weld-Mask
Reply:Originally Posted by xryanKeep practicing. Almost there. Learn to use 5356, I'd recycle the 4043 for the most part. Your 225 is MORE than enough for what you are doing. Preheat with aluminum is your friend before lighting off the torch. You are going WAY to slow travel speed. If I was teaching you, I'd give you an aluminum plate and just use the torch to learn how the puddle forms and behaves. THEN run lots and lots of beads in the flat before you even attempt a fillet weld. You're almost there. And good to see you got some 1/8" tungsten the 3/32 will never take the heat for aluminum. That ball on the end looks good in post #33 for a fillet as the arc will "wet out" both side of the corner better. I didn't catch what machine it is, transformer or inverter?
Reply:In between work and the other projects, I've finely had time to play around with this again. After about a pound of filler rod I think I'm back on track. My best results so far have been by leaving the balance at all but full penetration and a tapered tungsten with blunted tip. I spent a lot of time going at it with the full 230 amps but it seemed no matter what I did (amount of preheat, tungsten shape, etc) the penetration didn't get any deeper, it just spread the puddle wider. It seemed like it worked best around 180 amps and let it cook a little longer before traveling and then occasionally bumping the peddle to move the puddle along - does that make sense?
Reply:On that one edge that started falling out, looks like it got the most penetration on the weld side, as the edge was not clearly visible like the rest of the bead.  Good thread with good advice.  Thumbs up. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:[QUOTE=Steffan;6806491]In between work and the other projects, I've finely had time to play around with this again. After about a pound of filler rod I think I'm back on track. My best results so far have been by leaving the balance at all but full penetration and a tapered tungsten with blunted tip. I spent a lot of time going at it with the full 230 amps but it seemed no matter what I did (amount of preheat, tungsten shape, etc) the penetration didn't get any deeper, it just spread the puddle wider. It seemed like it worked best around 180 amps and let it cook a little longer before traveling and then occasionally bumping the peddle to move the puddle along - does that make sense? It sure looks like you've got circular grind marks on the electrode, rather than longitudinal. Circular marks promote arc instability, lack ofarc focus, wandering.Blackbird
Reply:That's just the way it looks - I sharpen parallel to the tungsten. Progress... Maybe
Reply:That looks pretty good. Are you done practicing and ready to weld? I think so. Your tungsten looks better. You could always come back and add a little buildup to the termination when it cools a bit.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.