Syncrowave 210 and Invertig 221 owners

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when plugged into 115v socket, what thickness alumn. are you realistically welding? both HTP and Miller are claiming these machines will do .250 without preheat, with 115v input.I'm torn now with whether to get DV 221 or standard, or downgrade to the sync. 210 sync +s:-cost same as standard 221 but comes with dual input-miller service place nearbySyn -s:-features-sizeHTP +'s:-more featuresHTP  -s:-cost for DV-service center far awayReally torn on which way to go now. I think I may get the HTP 221 DV and get rid of my TA201ts as the HTP would do everything that one was intended too.'14 HTP invertig 221Thermal Arc 201ts'15 HTP 2400'13 Hypertherm Powermax 30Esab 875Esab 251Clark Metal Servicespecializing in stainless steel exhaust systems
Reply:I don't have either but I can't see either of them welding 1/4" Al on 120V. To weld 1/4" Al without pre-heat either machine would be pretty much maxed out on 230V. There simply isn't enough power in a 120V 20A circuit, even if there was a welder that was 100% efficient.The big problem with the Sync 210 is the size and weight. The main reason for having a dual-voltage machine, IMHO,  is portability. That is a strong advantage in favor of the HTP. The ease of getting service for the Miller is a big plus, but HTP has a very good reputation so I wouldn't worry too much.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:Originally Posted by Silicon-basedI don't have either but I can't see either of them welding 1/4" Al on 120V. To weld 1/4" Al without pre-heat either machine would be pretty much maxed out on 230V. There simply isn't enough power in a 120V 20A circuit, even if there was a welder that was 100% efficient.The big problem with the Sync 210 is the size and weight. The main reason for having a dual-voltage machine, IMHO,  is portability. That is a strong advantage in favor of the HTP. The ease of getting service for the Miller is a big plus, but HTP has a very good reputation so I wouldn't worry too much.John
Reply:I had something all wrote up but since you really want the HTP then get it and screw what the miller can do. HTP welders have more features and could be had cheaper if you wait for the black Friday sale. The DV isn't needed if you have 220 , you could always get extension cords for 220v.  All I can say is I love my machine and I don't think I will ever be upgrading as its enough for my needs.Last edited by NinjaRay; 10-14-2014 at 10:51 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by sausage450rYeah,  I wasn't buying the 110 A/C capabilities either. but would be interested to hear from owners just what it will do in 110v. I know my TA201ts will easily do 3/16 steel in 110v.I really would rather have to HTP. just trying to decide it I need DV (given that my thermal arc is DV in DC only.
Reply:I'd personally skip the DV.  People talk portability all the time with tig.  The problem is not the machine, it's all the other stuff.  You're looking at a healthy aluminum diet.  You need AMPS, truly a WATERCOOLED torch, cooler and a bottle.  Gas line, ground line, regulator, etc...   So in reality, you'll be humping around another hundred pounds or two with you.  Even if you go air cooled for that one job.  Plus, you're not magically making amps on 110V.  Energy can't be created or destroyed, it just changes form.  So you're making 2400W from a 20 amp 120V circuit.  That's it.  It's not worth packing everything up everytime.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Yup. 115volt input will only get you a decent AC or DC tig arc on 1/8" material, unless you add helium. Kick it up to 220volts and you can weld 1/4". Add helium and you can weld 3/8".Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:The invertig 221DV is a dang nice tig welder. I just read the specs. WoW!Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I went with the 221 non DV for the reasons Drf255 stated(my portability is a 25ft extension cord) and water cooler.  My only complaint right now is that the cooler fan is loud.  I really wish the fan was variable speed since I seldom run it hard enough to need much cooling.MillerMatic 252, HTP 221 w/cooler, Hypertherm PM45, Lincoln IdealArc 250 AC/DC"I'd like to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible"
Reply:At only 115V input you're limited to about 130A with the HTP 221, so I dunno where you're getting 1/4" aluminum capability from. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:[QUOTE=Oscar;4812751]At only 115V input you're limited to about 130A with the HTP 221, so I dunno where you're getting 1/4" aluminum capability from.[/QUOTE]I got that from a phone conversation with Diana at HTP tues. afternoon, and with a phone conversation with a techie at miller same day. both are claiming it. and I repeated the question, "really, with 110v input?" numerous times for both, and both stood behind their statement. I find it hard to believe as well. I am just trying to determine if it is worth it to me to spend 500$ more for a DV unit. I am pretty much ruling out the sync 210 at this point. I am not buying this welder to do heavy alumn. work, I have other welders that will accomplish that. This welder is for my @ home shop to do my alumn. and steel work. (all of which won't be thick). It will also be used as a mobile unit. The ability to do up to 1/8" alumn. in 110v is appealing to me as, being in the aerospace field, .032 and under is typically what I work with in alumn. I do have a 9k watt portable generator that I can bring with me if need be, I really don't know that I should spring for the DV'14 HTP invertig 221Thermal Arc 201ts'15 HTP 2400'13 Hypertherm Powermax 30Esab 875Esab 251Clark Metal Servicespecializing in stainless steel exhaust systems
Reply:[QUOTE=sausage450r;4816381] Originally Posted by OscarAt only 115V input you're limited to about 130A with the HTP 221, so I dunno where you're getting 1/4" aluminum capability from.[/QUOTE]I got that from a phone conversation with Diana at HTP tues. afternoon, and with a phone conversation with a techie at miller same day. both are claiming it. and I repeated the question, "really, with 110v input?" numerous times for both, and both stood behind their statement. I find it hard to believe as well. I am just trying to determine if it is worth it to me to spend 500$ more for a DV unit. I am pretty much ruling out the sync 210 at this point. I am not buying this welder to do heavy alumn. work, I have other welders that will accomplish that. This welder is for my @ home shop to do my alumn. and steel work. (all of which won't be thick). It will also be used as a mobile unit. The ability to do up to 1/8" alumn. in 110v is appealing to me as, being in the aerospace field, .032 and under is typically what I work with in alumn. I do have a 9k watt portable generator that I can bring with me if need be, I really don't know that I should spring for the DV
Reply:I asked about black Friday sale, and she wouldn't say when and if it would start. I kind of want to order sooner than later. would like to save 300$ though. My thoughts are, from experience, alumn. repair work away from the shop isn't that feasible without hauling a lot of tools to clean and prep. I'd rather do it at the shop.'14 HTP invertig 221Thermal Arc 201ts'15 HTP 2400'13 Hypertherm Powermax 30Esab 875Esab 251Clark Metal Servicespecializing in stainless steel exhaust systems
Reply:"Electrical ConnectionYour Invertig 221 AC/DC operates on single-phase 230 voltpower (+/- 15%). The machine is not shipped with a plug.The input power cord has 3 wires. The yellow-green wireis ground, and the blue and brown wires are the hot leads.The machine will draw 36 amps out of the wall when operatingat a welding output of 220 amps in the tig mode and 44amps when welding at an output of 200 amps in the stickmode.The Invertig 221 DV has the ability to operate on either 115 or230 volts. All you need to do is change the plug. When wiringthe machine for 115 volts, blue is the neutral, brown is the hot,and yellow green is the ground, and for 230 volt applications,the yellow-green wire is ground, and the blue and brownwires are the hot leads.On 230 volts, the machine will draw 26 amps out of the wallwhen operating at a welding output of 220 amps in the tigmode and 32 amps when welding at an output of 200 amps inthe stick mode.On 115 volts, the output must be limited to 130 amps in the tigwelding mode to run on a 30 amp breaker, 65 amps to run ona 20 amp breaker, and 67 amps to run on a 15 amp breaker. Inthe stick mode, the output must be limited to 100 amps to runon a 30 amp breaker, 65 amps to run on a 20 amp breaker, and50 amps to run on a 15 amp breaker.All electrical connections should be performed by aqualified electrician in accordance with the NationalElectrical Code and local codes and ordinances.''5    The above is copied and pasted from the manual. 65 amp limit on a 20 amp 115 volt breaker,sounds like a  worthless option to me.
Reply:Notice in ironrail's post above, that the standard model draws significantly more current than the DV model does on 230V. This may impact your ability to run the machine on your generator. It also means you need a larger breaker, heavier extension cords, etc.Also, regarding DRF255's comments, you can have an air-cooled torch and a small gas bottle for portable use, but use the machine in your shop with a water-cooled torch and cooler.As you can probably infer, I'm voting for the DV model. JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:The 221dv puts out 155 amps on 110v. Both machines are rated at 1/4" MAX on 220v and about 1/8" on 110v.If you do mobile welding and you can make up that $500 price difference then go for it. If it's sitting in your shop the 220v is all you need.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:already settled. ordered the 221 non dv today with cooler 20 torch setup 17 setup dual flow meter and pyrex kit'14 HTP invertig 221Thermal Arc 201ts'15 HTP 2400'13 Hypertherm Powermax 30Esab 875Esab 251Clark Metal Servicespecializing in stainless steel exhaust systems
Reply:Originally Posted by sausage450ralready settled. ordered the 221 non dv today with cooler 20 torch setup 17 setup dual flow meter and pyrex kit
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonAre these Invertigs made in Italy?
Reply:still made in italy'14 HTP invertig 221Thermal Arc 201ts'15 HTP 2400'13 Hypertherm Powermax 30Esab 875Esab 251Clark Metal Servicespecializing in stainless steel exhaust systems
Reply:Originally Posted by sausage450ralready settled. ordered the 221 non dv today with cooler 20 torch setup 17 setup dual flow meter and pyrex kit
Reply:Originally Posted by Silicon-basedNotice in ironrail's post above, that the standard model draws significantly more current than the DV model does on 230V.John
Reply:Originally Posted by stoneaxeHow is this possible?   Have they repealed the laws of physics or something?
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleIt's called PFC.
Reply:Yup, PFC.  Makes it more efficient.  Yet another reason to go DV, for other future buyers.   1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SCOriginally Posted by OscarYup, PFC.  Makes it more efficient.  Yet another reason to go DV, for other future buyers.
Reply:It's a large capicator bank that smoothes out the ripples in the incoming waveform. You get the same or more output with less amperage draw.Why it's not on just the normal models on most units is cost.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:well, everything showed up today, and I just finished wiring the plug, and browsed the manual. Time to go get familiar and strike some arcs. will start a review thread when ready'14 HTP invertig 221Thermal Arc 201ts'15 HTP 2400'13 Hypertherm Powermax 30Esab 875Esab 251Clark Metal Servicespecializing in stainless steel exhaust systems
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleIt's a large capicator bank that smoothes out the ripples in the incoming waveform. You get the same or more output with less amperage draw.Why it's not on just the normal models on most units is cost.
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255But it also consumes more amperage at idle to charge.  On a Syncro 250, with PFC, it draws 58 amps at IDLE.  Disconnect the PFC, and you're at 8 amps.  It takes a lot to charge the caps.This was a personal experience with a 250 hooked up to a 50 amp breaker in my garage.  I'd blow the breaker at idle and not while welding.  Finally figured it out and Miller told me how to remove them.
Reply:The PFC in inverter welders is quite different than the capacitor bank in old transformer welders. It is done by an electronic circuit that smooths out the "peaks and valleys" in each cycle of the line current. It does not cause the welder to draw more current at idle- quite the opposite in fact. My 300A inverter welder draws less than one amp at idle, and less than 50A at its full 300A output. An older inverter without PFC, by comparison, draws over 80A at the same 300A output.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:been playing for two weeks now. report thread soon to follow Attached Images'14 HTP invertig 221Thermal Arc 201ts'15 HTP 2400'13 Hypertherm Powermax 30Esab 875Esab 251Clark Metal Servicespecializing in stainless steel exhaust systems
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleIt's a large capicator bank that smoothes out the ripples in the incoming waveform. You get the same or more output with less amperage draw.Why it's not on just the normal models on most units is cost.
Reply:Never heard of the THD claim lolTorchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleNever heard of the THD claim lol
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveThat's the total harmonic distortion. The cheaper the generator, the more THD (in general).
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarYea, when I emailed the owner of HTP, he said either Honda or Generac, presumably because they provide very clean power, along the lines of utility company power in terms of noise)
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveRemember that Generac has two lines of generators, the more expensive line is the one with reduced THD.