?? older motor oil - question ??

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anyone know what the zinc/phosphorous or zddp level (parts per mill.) in motor oil was in, say, the 70s, for whenever the heyday for oil was as for flat tappet engs,  before emmissions was much of a concern.    Seems everyone i ask gives me a different answer.     I tried to join that "bobs the oil guy" forum, it appears like a great site, but whomever is running it is so screwed up, i can't get logged in or a reply from them.Last edited by 123weld; 02-13-2016 at 10:46 PM.
Reply:Well, here's an interesting thread from a Jeep forum on the subject. I've read the entire thing, and there's a lot of information / controversy about it.After reading it, I just bought some Valvoline VR1 off of Amazon.I have a 1989 AMC 360, and a 1977 AMC 401 in my 2 jeeps.Rich
Reply:Rotella T  is a great ZDDP bang for yer buck in todays world.   If you can stomach walking into Walmart to buy it. not sure what zddp levels used to be back in the good old days.Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:Check the api grade on the bottle.  SN is the current standard.  SL was the last to have higher levels of zinc.  High performance motorcycle engines recommend SJ in the crankcase, I believe this has the highest anti wear and  friction modifers.  SG/SF has high anti wear but no friction modifiers.  These are all available at most motorcycle dealerships.Now that diesel engines have catalytic converters don't count on their oil to have zddp anymore.  The metallic additives clog the converters.  I know Delo held out at SL for a while but about 5 years ago the switched to Delo 400 LE which is a SM.   We were able to buy Delo 400 MG until recently but MG is no longer being blended and we have switched to LE. Also note that oils went through a major reformulation in the 90's to get rid of chlorinated additives which prevent startup wear.  I don't know if this had any effect on automotive engines.Last edited by 76GMC1500; 02-14-2016 at 12:16 PM.
Reply:So I take it that you saw the news article about Dollar General selling oil designed for PRE 1988 engines?...Oil with nothing in it that newer engines need??Quite interesting....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:In all reality the newer api grade should superced all previous api grades.  I really only know of one exception where the new formulation caused damage but that was a very exceptional case.
Reply:Most of the guys I have talked to with older cars worry more about unleaded ethanol than the oils. It seems if an engine was run a few years on the older fuels that the lead coating will last a long time. Once a motor is stripped down and the valves ground it will require hardened seats for the valves though. The old mopar flathead sixes were a way ahead of their time and came from the factory with hardened seats. The ethanol can also be quite hard on the older plastic seals in carburetors and fuel pumps as well. Using the newer oils doesn't seem to be much of an issue.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Originally Posted by whtbaron Using the newer oils doesn't seem to be much of an issue.
Reply:I'd call, Cen Pe Co, we run their high zink oil in BB race motors. They are very nice folks to do business with.
Reply:I don't know what the levels used to be, but I run zddplus in my engines. My builder has commented that my engine didn't have a lot of wear and there were no signs of damage from detonation, which I am careful about. One engine is a GM crate 350 tbi for an 88 K5 blazer and is stock and doesn't make much power, but has a flat tappet cam. The other is in my 79 Chevy pickup and is a 406sbc, 10.2:1, forged crank, aluminum heads and intake and all the other goodies you can throw at it and now has a roller cam and full roller rockers, but initially had a flat tappet cam and roller tipped rockers. This engine is estimated at about 400hp/525 tq, but it is used to tow a 9k pound trailer with the 79 truck. The cam (comp 264 HR)isn't anything big since this is a truck engine so it likely doesn't compare to a BBC race engine. I don't want wear to be an issue with the amount of load it can see and the places where it could leave me stranded if something major was to happen.Even with the roller valve train, I add half a bottle of zddplus for insurance. $5 in extra fluid per oil change is cheap insurance in a $7,000 engine that I don't want to pull out again, even if it doesn't cost me any money for repairs (That won't be the case if the cam does get wiped out). The 350tbi flat tappet engine gets a full bottle, so it costs me another $10.I think the zddplus bottle says that a single bottle treats 4-5 quarts of oil to give the zddp levels that older engines used to have from the old blends of oil, but I don't recall if they list the ppm. You might check their web site for more info.Last edited by CGT80; 02-14-2016 at 02:54 PM.Miller 330abpMiller 211 inverter, M150 spool gunMiller 135Miller 375 Extreme plasmaCNC plasma table (build in progress)Femi 120abs portable band sawMany other toolsToo little garage spaceNot enough money
Reply:Apparently, adding ZDDP to your oil doesn't help. It has to be blended in during the manufacturing process.Myself, I have a hard time believing that. It seems to me that a lot of blending goes on when an engine is turning 2-3K RPM's...Rich
Reply:thanks guys, i had bought some valvoline  conventional vr1, its 1400 ppm, I called valvoline about it, and i just don't feel good about the way they talk, and am hesitant to use it.   i think any of the current  off the shelf conventionals are about 850 ppm at best.   i talk to lucas oil out of so cal., , they claim they have a conventional at about 2000 ppm.   i kinda want to consider/research  it, but i think the first step is to find out what numbers/ppm i want. also unsure about the zddp additive.      i got a bunch of older stuff, but my main concern at the moment is an older 454, and the cams didn't last on those, even when your doing everything right.        if/when i find out some of the levels of what eras, i'll post it.    that bobs oil forum looks like thee place, but i have no luck being able to join.  also, thank you everyone for the comments you made, it helped.
Reply:Have you contacted an oil testing company or sent your new or used oil in for analysis? Maybe they will have more info.Have you considered upgrading to a roller cam? They should have less wear issues and better ramp rates, which may increase the performance a bit over the flat tappet cam. The 400 block for my truck, is from the 70's and it required a conversion kit which put the parts cost up there, but it seemed like a good idea for all of the benefits of the roller setup. The later blocks, were supposed to be prepped for a roller cam, but had flat tappet cams when installed in trucks or the K5 and I was told it was less expensive to run a roller cam.You might look for info on any possible side effects of having too much zddp. If there aren't any, then error on the side of using more of it for a higher ppm.Miller 330abpMiller 211 inverter, M150 spool gunMiller 135Miller 375 Extreme plasmaCNC plasma table (build in progress)Femi 120abs portable band sawMany other toolsToo little garage spaceNot enough money
Reply:the block and heads came out of a 81 camper special, i replaced the cam in the early 90s, later a rod started knockin.    i rebuilt it in '99.    it's balanced, i  put a '74 steel crank in, manley valves( stallite exhaust), double roller timing chain, hyperutective pistons, and a slight towing cam,  it took me 11 months to do.   it still runs good.    i just ran out of a bunch of oil from 2001.    anyway before i change oil next time, i need to figure out what i'm going to do.    i got this thing in a 70's chevy dually,  if/when this cam goes bad, only then would i consider a roller.   yea, i'm still working on the zddp thing, cuz i got other old motors also.    no, oil analysis, i dont want to hear what i been doing wrong.   i just want to start doing it right    thanksLast edited by 123weld; 02-17-2016 at 03:55 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldthe block and heads came out of a 81 camper special, i replaced the cam in the early 90s, later a rod started knockin.    i rebuilt it in '99.    it's balanced, i  put a '74 steel crank in, manley valves( stallite exhaust), double roller timing chain, hyperutective pistons, and a slight towing cam,  it took me 11 months to do.   it still runs good.    i just ran out of a bunch of oil from 2001.    anyway before i change oil next time, i need to figure out what i'm going to do.    i got this thing in a 70's chevy dually,  if/when this cam goes bad, only then would i consider a roller.   yea, i'm still working on the zddp thing, cuz i got other old motors also.    no, oil analysis, i dont want to hear what i been doing wrong.   i just want to start doing it right    thanks
Reply:yea, i remeber using rotella and in tractors in the late 80s.  i liked delo also.    340mi is alot for a older heavy car like thats carbuerated.    i've gotten over 300,000 mi on fuel inj 305 and 350 that had overdrives, i thicken the oil up according to how many mi or wear i perceive.   in other words, something that calls for 10-30, i might go to straight 30 at 80,000 , 120,000 start mixing in some 40, and go to straight 40 at 160,000 or something.     it don't get below 30 degrees here
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldyea, i remeber using rotella and in tractors in the late 80s.  i liked delo also.    340mi is alot for a older heavy car like thats carbuerated.    i've gotten over 300,000 mi on fuel inj 305 and 350 that had overdrives, i thicken the oil up according to how many mi or wear i perceive.   in other words, something that calls for 10-30, i might go to straight 30 at 80,000 , 120,000 start mixing in some 40, and go to straight 40 at 160,000 or something.     it don't get below 30 degrees here
Reply:i like that story, it sounds like a family heirloom.     you definately wore it to the max w/o killing it, and revived it.   adding fuel injection sounds good.   thanks for sharing.   i just brought up some pics of a 68 barracudda, those could be made to  look pretty good