Waterjet Cutting A Joke? Opinons Please

admin

Hey guys recently requested  a table top to be cut out on the waterjet. One that has the same pattern as a bluco or stronghand buildpro table.so 2400mm x 1200mm x 16 mm (imperial) 6 foot x 4 foot x 5/8with 16mm (5/8) diameter hole in a 50mm ( 2inch) grid like pattern.i said id supply the steel sheet to which i got a quote of.$4650 + GST so $5115.00is this right? im in Melbourne Australia. Ive been quoted ($850) to have it plasma cut in the same pattern ( obviously i cant because plasma will warp it). i even supplied the DXF file so they arnt designing it for me or anything.Let me know thoughts at opinions guys.. Attached ImagesLast edited by nerdstar; 08-20-2012 at 06:22 PM.
Reply:Theres a hell of a lot of holes there I guess they charge by how long it would take, Have you tried a quote for laser cut?? and another hint is try and get the holes cut a tad smaller than 16mm so you can finish off by drilling. Reason being with machine cut holes you'll never get them100% round and level.I guess when pricing something like this up they work iy out on the amount of holes and how long they would take.Have you thought about just getting the strips water jetted and getting the holes done on a cnc mill or drill ??  Might work out cheaper than getting it all done via waterjet
Reply:Was the quote just for the cutting? Or did it include grinding, drilling, and tapping? What material are you using?Wouldn't it make more sense to use dimensional flat bar, have it ground (or use pre-ground stock), and then drilled and tapped?
Reply:I own a waterjet.Send me your DXF's and ill quote it for you so you have a price comparison.
Reply:Originally Posted by Gerry1964Theres a hell of a lot of holes there I guess they charge by how long it would take, Have you tried a quote for laser cut?? and another hint is try and get the holes cut a tad smaller than 16mm so you can finish off by drilling. Reason being with machine cut holes you'll never get them100% round and level.I guess when pricing something like this up they work iy out on the amount of holes and how long they would take.Have you thought about just getting the strips water jetted and getting the holes done on a cnc mill or drill ??  Might work out cheaper than getting it all done via waterjet
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireWas the quote just for the cutting? Or did it include grinding, drilling, and tapping? What material are you using?Wouldn't it make more sense to use dimensional flat bar, have it ground (or use pre-ground stock), and then drilled and tapped?
Reply:Originally Posted by drivethruboy54I own a waterjet.Send me your DXF's and ill quote it for you so you have a price comparison.
Reply:Mick's design is a solid table not slots. Look for some blanchard ground plate (at thick as you can afford). Lay out your hole pattern and use a mag drill to drill holes. If you can find someone locally with a cnc bed mill they could drill and thread mill the bolt holes. If your looking for a grinding shop... look for someone that does blanchard grinding. Attached ImagesLast edited by forhire; 08-20-2012 at 08:38 PM.
Reply:i priced it cutting a full sheet, as you have drawn, but in a 4' X 6' configuartion.I would cut it for 3500, not including the material.Theres almost 1100 holes and at a $150/hr (which in my area is cheap for waterjetting) it adds up quick.  Each hole is about a minute to get a clean hole.I also priced cutting the perimeter, so if a plate was supplied already cut to size you could save another couple hundred dollars.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mick120One other option is, go straight to Tangant Tool.....http://www.tanjant.com.au/product/ou...dividual_plateYou can purchase the individual plates for the Buildpro tables.....hate to know the cost tho.
Reply:How accurate do you need the holes? +/- metrics fine I speak foriegn languges ( Mick120  ) and can convert it to thousands of an inch.I have a thought on cheaper but how accurate you want it is driving factor.
Reply:Originally Posted by fredschromHow accurate do you need the holes? +/- metrics fine I speak foriegn languges ( Mick120  ) and can convert it to thousands of an inch.I have a thought on cheaper but how accurate you want it is driving factor.
Reply:Thanks drivethruboy54 for the estimate, at least i now know that the people that quoted me werent far of the mark. Still surprised on the difference between waterjet $5150 and plasma $850 for the same design.Forhire, im now searching for some ground plate, hopefully something comes up. at this rate it seems as though buying a milling machine could be an option to just doing myself
Reply:Originally Posted by nerdstarG'day fredschrom, my ears are open to suggestion, Accurate doesnt have to be spot on im mainly making frames with square tube, but the more accurate the easier it is to build..
Reply:There's a Buildpro table on eBay right now for $2700 usd. Oh, and a Bluco for $9,000 usd.
Reply:Those tables with a bazillion holes like that are a total waste of $$$ if you ask me.Find a plate & get an assortment of these DeStaCo clamps.  tack them wherever you need, & grind them off when you need to move them.This sheet was something that I scrapped out for a guy for free, the clamps are less than $20.00 each.If you are going to bother with a fixture table get a Platen style & make up some smaller holey plates that you can clamp down anywhere on your tableBuy American, or don't whine when you end up on the bread line.
Reply:Originally Posted by nerdstarG'day fredschrom, my ears are open to suggestion, Accurate doesnt have to be spot on im mainly making frames with square tube, but the more accurate the easier it is to build..
Reply:I'd buy a Hougen drill and shoot holes as I needed them. Tables with many holes are nice, but few are usually used for each job.
Reply:NerdstarYou're on the right track wanting a table with holes for internal clamping. It is very fast fitting your parts for welding. As long as your clamps have a long enough throat on them, the holes do not need to be perfectly spaced. A water jet is plenty accurate. You will not use the spacing or "squareness" of the placement of the holes when fitting your parts for welding. The only tables you can use the placement of the holes when fitting your work is the Bluco. Getting a flat table top is a whole other issue. Getting a table top that is both perfectly flat and has internal clamping holes is even tougher. I'd encourage you to just save your money and buy the Buildpro table. I have seen them in person and they are very legitimate and impressive tables. Long term, they will make you money. You can advertise that equipment to set your work apart from the rest of your competition. I can assure you once you weld on a fixture table, you won't go back. You'll design and tackle projects with a high level of accuracy that you could never do before. I really need to build a pretty base for my table. This photo after freshly Blanchard grinding the top and bottom of my table. One of if not the largest Blanchard grinders in the USJust can't beat accurate and fast Last edited by Jimmy_pop; 08-21-2012 at 08:37 AM.
Reply:Wont a plasma with a water bed work? The plate should never get hot so it shouldnt warp, Maybe Im looking at it wrong.
Reply:How about ordering flat bar instead of a sheet of plate.  6" wide x 1" thick (I'm sorry I'm not good at metric units)  And then drill your holes with a mag drill and cut them with a band saw.  If you have a good saw I would think you could turn out a good piece.  Also I believe Bluco is more international and you may can get good deal.  I watched Jody's video from Welding Tips and Tricks about the strong hand table; he also noted that Bluco has affordable options, and they let people trade in their old bluco tables.  You might can get a used table from Bluco and save a little cash.http://www.bluco.com/about_bluco/Used_equipment.html
Reply:hey man, I don't know exactly what your needs are but I was in a similar situation recently and I tried to lay out my own copy of the stronghand and went through a lot of what your going through in trying to duplicate it cheaper and what I realized is that stronghand is mass producing these, lowering there costs enough that by the time you buy from them even after there mark up it'll still wind up costing you ~ the same to try to build it yourself as a one off.the biggest advantage to this precision grid of holes is in fixturing a setup and then being able to duplicate this exact fixturing some time in the future. if this is not a thing that you think you'll be needing all that often as in you usually build one-offs and then go on to the next one-off then there is no huge advantage to this type of precision fixturing setupwhat I decided for myself was that I mainly needed a perfectly flat surface that I could clamp easily too and make some fixtures but really don't "need" all that this table really is, so I instead winded up looking for and buying a surplus T-Slot table top instead, and I am building that into a fabrication table. will still have the perfectly flat surface, still have reference points for squaring stuff up and good clamping ability but for much less $$ and will still be ok for what I want. might be something for you to look into, search ebay for "t slot" and you'll find many different sizes and setups, a large t slot table makes a really nice fabrication table and by being cast iron no splatter will stick to it and you can't warp it... maybe a possible alternative for you? either that or maybe an acorn table which is the other thing  I also considered for myself, but my biggest problem is space, I can't even comfortably fit strongarms smallest table in my garage miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Thanks to all i think its best to just buy the buildpro table. costing things up and to deal with the hassle of getting everything cut then surface ground it wont end up being cheaper or justifiable. I think ill build the stronghand table myself and buy the genuine plates. to make its more cost effective ill just buy 5 plates to start with and with more work invest in the other five. Thank to everyone for their input and helping me come to my conclusion really do appreciate it!Final thought you lot in America have it good everything being sooo cheap! Here are two examples id snap up if it was viable to have it shippedhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/30-X-80-T-SL...item20c9f1d40dhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/61-X-23-X-1-...item27c783c1eb
Reply:I'd use a 20mm thick plate and get it ground flat....then use big 40mm diam neodymium magnets screwed to bottom of the clamps to hold them down.....no need to drill the table.A 40mm diam magnet is almost impossible to remove without a special lifter......sliding and tilting can work but they're damm powerfull and relatively cheap, also infinitely adjustable for position.You could also use the mag blocks with the push button release that are used to attach dial indicators for mill and lathe work.....they're also easier to remove any swarf or metal particle when the magnet is switched off.Ian.
Reply:Thanks puddytat, i mainly use Stainless so fixture table is best option in my caseLincoln v270 T PulseLincoln v270 T Pulse #2Unimig 200 InverterCigweld 170HFThomas Super Technics 350It's been a while since looking at the frame of the Buildpro table but I do recall seeing that the frame that the drilled surface plates mount to had also been surface ground after it was welded. That frame is very beefy and alot more thought went into it than just welding some tubes together. I can go take some photos of that table? I'll be over there today anyway.Last edited by Jimmy_pop; 08-22-2012 at 11:04 AM.
Reply:yeah, the slats are only half the battle. the "pads" are tapped, then all welded to the support tubes and then the whole thing is then ground to perfectly flat on the face of those mounting tabs, this is what makes the whole table so flat once it's assembled. you need the rise at each slat if you want to be able to slide anything between the slats and clamp as they make some fixtures that actually work off the edges instead of the holes... also the spacing between the slats have to be very precise. the base is critical to the whole table really being as good as a real deal table...miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Photos from earlier today. The welds look like poopoo but I can see surface grind marks on the underside where the legs bolt on through the globs of black paint. I can't see the surface of the pads but when I was researching these tables for myself, their engineering dept confirmed that both sides of the frame were ground and tapped.
Reply:What am I missing?I can understand a precision surface on a table for some kind of mill, but why for a welding table?So you clamp it securely and the work is flat and square, but weld it up and everything pulls toward the welds by easily an order of magnitude greater that the accuracy of the table flatness.In many cases, you need to introduce an initial error in the opposite direction so the weld pulls things into square.Although they are really purdy though...And I really do get the idea some form of clamping ability mid-tableMillerMatic 252, HTP 221 w/cooler, Hypertherm PM45, Lincoln IdealArc 250 AC/DC"I'd like to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible"
Reply:this setup is more than just flat, it's a very precise grid. the precision of the grid is so re-fixturing becomes very easy and precise. the table almost acts as a sheet of graph paper in a sense, allowing very precise fixturing with many many precise points in the graph, and with the available attachments it extends this "grid" into the 3rd dimension so it becomes a very precise 3D measuring device as well as a means of clamping and workholding,  it's more than just having the ability to clamp anywhere it's a precision 3 dimensional measuring system of sort too...miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:light bulb goes on ...MillerMatic 252, HTP 221 w/cooler, Hypertherm PM45, Lincoln IdealArc 250 AC/DC"I'd like to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible"
Reply:So, everybody who doesn't have/use on of these things is producing crap work?....whatever happened to craftmanship and manual skills, or is it only the time factor for multiple and production work for the same type of items that makes it pay?I quite agree with the welding pull factor when you release the part, from accumulated contraction/expansion, making it very hard to prise it out of the jig.Ian.
Reply:When you have a table like this you can easily see what welding technique and sequence does and doesn't warp metal. Atleast not warp it in the direction that is important to you. Having a surface that is within .005 across 8', has internal clamping capability and that will last my entire welding career can't hurt.
Reply:puddytat the time factor and the ease of obtaining precise dimensional clamping and holding in all planes is what makes this thing cool for certain things.it's a steel erector set with many different clamping/attaching accessories.it allows you to build complicated precise jigs as easy as putting a lego set together,then break it down and jig up another job and then easily return to a previous setup just by simply reading and following the blueprint from that jobs setup. it's an awesome tool but the whole setup of table and all the toys to go with it that make it really useful is big bucks, so of course you need to be producing enough volume to justify the cost of this tooling.it's not that you can't be as precise without it, you most definitely can, but it will take a lot of extra work and effort on your part to do it and it will be harder to build to the accuracy that a tool like this easily allows . you may wind up having to create temporary jigs and fixtures that take a whole lot more time and effort to create than having a precision steel lego setup like this for jigging but it all depends what your doing and how much of it you are doing.miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:that table above definitely looks like poopootackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Is there atleast one Weldsale or Acorn table at nearby company where you could have a subframe clamped and welded for use with your new fixture plates?
Reply:G'day Mick, just saw your other thread nice saw. I use a 280 tooth HSS blade, the other day i was talking to my blade sharpener and said i really need to buy a Cobalt blade said the life of the blade is signifcantly increased when cutting stainless. Like you mentioned slowest speed ( i to use 22rpm) and heaps of coolant.He also mentioned the biggest killer of blade is cutting 45 degree cuts due to the fact you only using one side of the blades teeth to do the cuts.Price is a significant factor when deciding on the build-pro table here in Australia. Its hard to swallow we're paying 35-50% more than our American friends for them. Im still unsure whether ill purchase one as the tax mans been very kind to me so i may purchase a milling machine instead because ive always wanted one.Where are you located in Melbourne? how will you finish the the Stainless steel, you said 280 grit but what process are you using? CheersLincoln v270 T PulseLincoln v270 T Pulse #2Unimig 200 InverterCigweld 170HFThomas Super Technics 350