New to TIG--one more question

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Is it better to start out with steel, Al, or stainless? And what thickness? I went to my steel place and picked up a pile of Al (6061 I believe) all about 1/8 inch and one piece of stainless, also about 1/8. They had thinner and thicker stuff but I plan on just running beads with no filler for a while. Thanks in advance,Mike
Reply:If you try to run a bead with no filler on aluminum it will usually crack. Do whatever you want you will need to weld them all anyway. Probably steel.AL then stainless. Welding aluminum will make you a better welder. If you don't know how to feed the rod yet aluminum with make you learn. Don't forget to post some pics. 1/8 for all them. Stainless is spendy tho. Do butt joints and t joints are my favorite.  And you gota make the metal so clean you can eat off it
Reply:I find it a bit easier to start guys out on steel 1st. It's easy to see the puddle and you don't have to react as fast. You can take your time and watch exactly what the puddle is doing as you make changes in arc length, travel speed and amps. That makes it easier for new welders to pick up the basics, especially if learning on their own without someone with good knowledge looking over their shoulder. With alum, the solution to most issues new welders have is to add more amps and move faster typically. When you start to have issues, you don't slow down, you want to speed up and add more power. That's sort of like telling someone  learning to drive driving thru a construction area cattle chutes in icy conditions, that they need to floor it and go faster. Slow down and the out of control truck chasing them is going to flatten them. Most simply don't have the instinctive eye hand coordination down at this point to do well. It tends to be very frustrating to them and things happen so fast, it's tough for them to pick up on where exactly things are going wrong.We use 1/8" steel and 1/8" alum to teach tig. Steel you can go a bit thinner. 14 ga would work, but 16 ga gets to be a bit too thin. You need the material thick enough it will take some over heating without blowing big holes, and thin enough that it forces them to learn heat control. That doesn't happen with thicker materials. They make pretty looking beads, but when they try and move down, what they learned really doesn't help them much.Alum I wouldn't try and learn on anything much thinner than 1/8". Alum is a great heat sink, and thinner material heats up a lot faster. That makes it easier to weld with lower amp rated machines, but heat control becomes so much more important. You absolutely must MOVE and move fast as soon as the puddle forms or the heat build up in the piece becomes too much and you loose control. Even 1/8" is tough on newer students. Thicker and you need a lot of amps and most guys don't have the equipment for it. For 1/8" alum we have them set the machines at 150 amps, and I usually go for 180-200 to get the puddle to form even faster and keep the piece cooler and easier to weld. Go to 3/16" and you will want 200 amps or more to overcome the heat sink qualities of the alum.Given a choice, I'd suggest cold rolled steel as it eliminates some of the cleaning you need to do to weld steel. We typically use hot rolled at the school for cost reasons, but students spend 1/3 of the time grinding their pieces to practice on.Stainless 1/8" or 14 ga would work well. Thin stainless has issues if you don't shield the back. Thick stainless is quite expensive. We usually leave stainless to late in training. It's simply too expensive to make beginner mistakes on. Learn the basics of travel speed, amp control, feeding filler and arc length on cheap material like CR or HR steel. Once you can make decent welds on this most have no issues transitioning to stainless and just fine tuning their heat control.Learning 1st on steel then transitioning over to alum after a bit can be beneficial, once you have the basics down. Alum will tell you real fast if you are wrong and force you to improve. Moving back to steel, you'll find you are much farther ahead than you might have expected. I'd like to see students get at least thru outside corner joints before trying alum. We have had a few make it this far this term and the results are still mixed, though I'll admit most had some tig experience before they started out the term..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks. I will start out with 1/8 steel. I picked up a lot of Al but I will hold off on that for now. I'll show some pics as I go. This will be interesting. My first introduction to TIG was last year and I was HORRIBLE!!!
Reply:I've done plenty of posts on how to start out with tig, detailing the steps we use to help guys learn. I'd suggest you look up a few of them and read all the comments and look at the picts that others have posted and see if you can pick up some ideas..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Myself...When I hold a tig clinic I like to start them off on stainless...You can get very good results with no filler and it gives the newbees a feel for the torch without getting the other hand going right off the bat.......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:We do basically the same thing by having them manipulate the puddle on plain plate with no filler 1st..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Aluminoom. Lots of guys start on steel and that is all they can do. Start them on alum and they can do anything. Steel is easy to learn but hard to master. Alum is hard to learn, but easy to master. Just my opinion. Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Aluminum is much more fun!!! It will deffently teach you foot pedal control. Just go slow and you will be good! If your moving really fast that means you got to many amps.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI've done plenty of posts on how to start out with tig, detailing the steps we use to help guys learn. I'd suggest you look up a few of them and read all the comments and look at the picts that others have posted and see if you can pick up some ideas.
Reply:I suggest starting with steel plate and laying a couple lines just to get the feel of the torch, filler, foot control etc. I find that boring though so jump right into butt fillet and lap welds then build a welding cart or some project.  Then get some aluminum and do the same.  I made an aluminum tig cart for my project. You need to do projects when at home to keep focus.  School is different.  After welding alumum you will find steel and reading puddles easy.The hardest with TIG is making the stack of dimes even.   I progressed from poor looking bad welds to poor looking good welds...to occasional even dimes now.  You'll see what I mean.  You learn to read the puddle before your rhythm is good
Reply:Originally Posted by Hambone2004That's a good idea. Should I just search under DSW and Tig or something like that?
Reply:Thanks for that. I read that and it looks like a good way to start off.
Reply:If you want to try Terry's way, we do everything the same when teaching alum. Only real difference is that the amps have to be set to at least 150 in AC, higher if you can handle the extra power. Also the drills with no filler don't work as well. You pretty much have to use filler with alum and that makes it a bit tough if they don't already understand what arc length and travel speed does to the beads.Biggest thing I find with guys who want to learn alum on their own is that they almost always want to try to run too slow and low. I'm constantly upping the amps on students machines because they try to turn it down. They often get a bit irritated when they are making a melted mess at say 120 amps, then I come along and crank the machine up to 200 and make really pretty welds. They just don't understand that more amps means less total heat input, but that I can get the puddle to form instantly on demand, then back off and fly to produce the bead.They also get very frustrated when they can't get decent looking beads. In maybe an hour or so I can have a student making nice beads with no filler on plain plate with steel. Many times it can take 3 or 4 classes to do this with alum as they also have to learn to add filler at the same time since alum won't weld well without filler. There's just a huge amount to learn to do all at once. It's really bad with students who are somewhat ADD. If they can't get results, they tend to want to "wander off" and do other things and can't understand why they aren't getting where they want..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIf you want to try Terry's way, we do everything the same when teaching alum. Only real difference is that the amps have to be set to at least 150 in AC, higher if you can handle the extra power. Also the drills with no filler don't work as well. You pretty much have to use filler with alum and that makes it a bit tough if they don't already understand what arc length and travel speed does to the beads.Biggest thing I find with guys who want to learn alum on their own is that they almost always want to try to run too slow and low. I'm constantly upping the amps on students machines because they try to turn it down. They often get a bit irritated when they are making a melted mess at say 120 amps, then I come along and crank the machine up to 200 and make really pretty welds. They just don't understand that more amps means less total heat input, but that I can get the puddle to form instantly on demand, then back off and fly to produce the bead.They also get very frustrated when they can't get decent looking beads. In maybe an hour or so I can have a student making nice beads with no filler on plain plate with steel. Many times it can take 3 or 4 classes to do this with alum as they also have to learn to add filler at the same time since alum won't weld well without filler. There's just a huge amount to learn to do all at once. It's really bad with students who are somewhat ADD. If they can't get results, they tend to want to "wander off" and do other things and can't understand why they aren't getting where they want.
Reply:Whatever metal you learn on, stay on this site and take the roasting. Post pictures and don't get butt-hurt if some comments are nasty. Just takes practice and input from people that have been there.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Yeah sadly there isn't enough of us to go around at the tech school with 12-16 students. There's only so much time in a 3 hour class you can devote to each person. Working one on one with someone does help them move forward faster..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I have a bunch of bits and pieces on which to practice and my feelings won't be hurt with criticism. Deep down we are all just the same. We love machines and we love to make stuff. I'm simply learning how at this point. The excitement is crazy and my machine is still with UPS. Won't get here until tomorrow. And with my luck, the little Chinese machine won't even work right when I plug it in. But I'll try and read and listen and learn. I'll post my progress.
Reply:What machine did you buy? You will also need acetone and a new stainless brush. And acetone then brush. Then even acetone again. The rag won't lie. U should make a third hand so you can hold the t joint up while taking. Or you could throw it in the vise but third hand is much easier and faster
Reply:i could have put this at 90 degrees. Just showing the angle these can hold
Reply:My tig welds....Charl
Reply:Originally Posted by xmancharlMy tig welds....Charl
Reply:...there are good night classes at local vo tech schools
Reply:Originally Posted by xmancharlMy tig welds....Charl
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313What machine did you buy? You will also need acetone and a new stainless brush. And acetone then brush. Then even acetone again. The rag won't lie. U should make a third hand so you can hold the t joint up while taking. Or you could throw it in the vise but third hand is much easier and fasterI heard so many problems with those the first day guys using them it was rediculas. Hopefully yours is a good one! What size breaker you gona put it on? You got a bottle of argon?you know to get 70s-2 for steel and 5356 for AL. 309 for stainless and for welding stainless to steel or welding dissimilar metals
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313I heard so many problems with those the first day guys using them it was rediculas. Hopefully yours is a good one! What size breaker you gona put it on? You got a bottle of argon?you know to get 70s-2 for steel and 5356 for AL. 309 for stainless and for welding stainless to steel or welding dissimilar metals
Reply:Originally Posted by Hambone2004I took advantage of the Longevity black friday deal on the 200 sx. I hope it works out ok. I have a stainless steel brush and I have plenty of acetone (I am chemist). The machine is supposed to get here tomorrow so I will try to get set up. I think I have everything I need to get going. It's about 20 degrees F in my garage at the moment so I will see how much I get done before freezing to death.
Reply:I don't think silicone bronze is very thoLast edited by motolife313; 12-08-2014 at 01:41 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313I heard so many problems with those the first day guys using them it was rediculas. Hopefully yours is a good one! What size breaker you gona put it on? You got a bottle of argon?you know to get 70s-2 for steel and 5356 for AL. 309 for stainless and for welding stainless to steel or welding dissimilar metals
Reply:Pre heat is your friend for AL.  You can't have enough amps for cold aluminum sometimes.  Even 150 degree pieces weld much nicer than 55 degree plates.  A consideration during the winter especially.Throw those tabs on a kerosene heater for a minute
Reply:Preheat can help and also have disastrous results if you don't know what you are doing with alum. Many alum alloys get their strength thru heat treating. Heat them too much and you anneal them and they go dead soft loosing all that strength. Some common alloys go soft at temps as low as 300 deg F. That's why you weld alum hot and fast, to avoid over heating the material and reducing the overall strength.  You make up for the strength loss in the weld bead with filler additives, but you can't combat that loss in the main part without reheat treating the whole piece if you have over heated it and annealed the piece.Most people I've found just learning to tig alum don't have the knowledge or experience to benefit from preheating alum. Preheat is not simply a generic solution for the fact your machine is too small for the job. Most that I see at the hobby level who preheat simply make a mess of things. Very few beads actually look decent. Most are way too "hot", even though the machine amps are too low. That's because the whole piece gets heat soaked and it's impossible to do a good bead..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Lol.. no need to troll my ideasHeating aluminum tabs slightly for practice makes it easier and more consistant as the metal welds easier as it heats but also gives heat to the room based on surface area, by pre warming you lessen the time welding and the changes in welding chacteristics.  dude ain't welding ASME section 3, just practicing
Reply:It's here! Let the fun begin
Reply:Nice bro!!!Post some welds tonight if you have the balls. Make sure you got about 5 tungstens sharp and ready. If I were you I would get the half back and cut you tungstens in half. It will make the torch feel smaller to. You don't have to worry about preheating 1/8 inch unless its a really big piece. Maybe just for like 1 minute to get it warm if its really cold in ur shop. And have fun!!!Last edited by motolife313; 12-08-2014 at 07:56 PM.
Reply:Also do you know you need post flow? Put it to about 7 or 10 sec. for 1/8 inch and 12 to 18 cfh with a 6 or 7 cup. I use 6 alot. The smaller the cup the less gas you gota use
Reply:I have the balls Motolife. But wow!!! No skill whatsoever!!! This is seriously hard. There are some pics of just beads with no filler. I thought I would then try to run with filler. FAIL!!!!!
Reply:I got the tungsten stuck about 50 times. Then I got it stuck about 50 more. I had a few all sharp and ready to go but I just got frustrated. The good news is that I know what I need to do I just have to work on doing it. This is very difficult. Much respect to all that do this well. Truly.
Reply:The other good news is that the machine seems to function nicely. I had no problems at all getting the puddles to form on 1/8 in Al.
Reply:Awesome
Reply:The pics are reversed. The first pic is where I decided to run a lap weld after running a few with no filler (second pic).
Reply:Originally Posted by bikesandcarsAwesome
Reply:That's really good for your first day!! Just go slow. And the puddle is really shiney on aluminum that's how you know it's puddled. I think we all sucked our for bottle or 2. I have never practiced with out filler other then fusing stuff and I love to speed tack. Keep it up man ur doing good!have you ever tiged before? With aluminum you got keep farther from the puddle with ur tungsten because you gota put alot of filler in and it Rises alot. I usually puddle then as I add filler lift up a little with the torch. What size filler you using? U will want 3/32 filler for 1/8 thick metal on aluminum. Looks like you know how to feed the rod already?
Reply:Don't make us guess. My crystal ball is out for repairs. Knowing your amps, filler wire size and type, material type and thickness, tungsten size and type, gas flow etc will help us help you. Don't assume just because you used the same settings before, we'll remember ( or bother to go back and try and hunt them down who knows how many posts back) Just looking at your lap joint, I'd say you were too cold and too slow, but without any information, that's just a guess based on what I've seen others do in the past. Back in post 12 I listed the steps we use to teach basic tig. You have already jumped to chapter 7 and skipped almost everything else. ( I understand it's a new toy and you want to play right now) There's a reason we teach things in the order that we do. Each previous step builds on what you learned to do before. Rushing ahead just puts you father behind. Yes it's boring repetitive tedious work. We don't move people ahead until they can show basic consistency and competence in the step they are working on.I've got  a student right now who admits to being ADD. He gets bored doing repetitive tasks and jumps ahead... Then he can't understand why he can't do what the other students are doing at this point. He simply hasn't learned the basics because he won't put in the time required to master them. He's trying to do vertical T's when he can't do horizontal T's, because he never put in the time learning flat T's or even flat laps... He's frustrated because he's not going forward, but he's not going forward because he won't do the drills until he gets them right..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:How did the tip of the tungsten look? Balled or did it have little pointy things hanging off it?
Reply:Ok, let's see some fillets.  Let's see your torch too.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:"Dipped 50 times"... Beginners tend the tungsten a lot.   It's not obvious at first,  but the contaminated electrode makes the arc very hard to control.   That's why you should swap the electrode every time you dip it.   I have a small harbor freight polisher/grinder that is dedicated to sharpening tungsten.  Only $28 this week.  Add the 20% coupon and it's not a bad deal.http://www.harborfreight.com/3-inch-...her-94071.htmlThe books say that you should cut off 1/2 inch from the tip if the tungsten is contaminated.   That keeps the contamination from getting into your grinding wheel. Dan----------------------------Measure twice.  Weld once.  Grind to size.MIG:  Lincoln SP100 TIG/STICK:  AHP Alphatig 200X
Reply:That would get expensive and take alot of time and be a pain  in the butt. I don't think he building a space shuttle yet. Does anyone actually cut there tungsten if the bump?
Reply:We just have the students grind the fouling off. On rare occasions I have cut them back, usually if they have fouled it so bad I can't get all the fouling off easily.Alum "wicks" a good distance up the tungsten as soon as you foul it, either with the filler rod or the puddle. If you stop right away and grind, it's not all that hard to remove. If you keep on going and dip a few more times, you get this massive blob that you almost have no choice but to cut the end off the tungsten to fix the issue.There is a huge change in how the arc behaves after you fouled the tungsten with alum. You aren't doing yourself any favors by just ignoring the problem. If you foul, STOP, regrind, and continue..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWDon't make us guess. My crystal ball is out for repairs. Knowing your amps, filler wire size and type, material type and thickness, tungsten size and type, gas flow etc will help us help you. Don't assume just because you used the same settings before, we'll remember ( or bother to go back and try and hunt them down who knows how many posts back) Just looking at your lap joint, I'd say you were too cold and too slow, but without any information, that's just a guess based on what I've seen others do in the past. Back in post 12 I listed the steps we use to teach basic tig. You have already jumped to chapter 7 and skipped almost everything else. ( I understand it's a new toy and you want to play right now) There's a reason we teach things in the order that we do. Each previous step builds on what you learned to do before. Rushing ahead just puts you father behind. Yes it's boring repetitive tedious work. We don't move people ahead until they can show basic consistency and competence in the step they are working on.I've got  a student right now who admits to being ADD. He gets bored doing repetitive tasks and jumps ahead... Then he can't understand why he can't do what the other students are doing at this point. He simply hasn't learned the basics because he won't put in the time required to master them. He's trying to do vertical T's when he can't do horizontal T's, because he never put in the time learning flat T's or even flat laps... He's frustrated because he's not going forward, but he's not going forward because he won't do the drills until he gets them right.