Need help with Weldanpower Code 8928 Idle

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I had to try again to get some idea as to what is causing this problem with the 225 Lincoln This is pretty much a repeat, hoping to get some needed help. .  Engine automatic high idle no longer works, but when you use the switch , it does. Prior to having to do the work of replacing the fan and broken through bolt, all worked as it should ,. both generator and welder. Checked careful for any broken wires and continuity good . So don't kow if that idler board is bad or what. Is there a way to hot wire it or check it out? I get the feeling there is not much wrong, something small. Also, I noticed when I pull the ground off the battery while running the idle increases. Put it back on and it decreases. So what is up with this? Am I suppoed to polarize this or something? Thanks for the help
Reply:There's a serious problem with the forum site so navigating around is a little frustrating.Did you see the replies to your first thread?http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=44844Double/triple check all your circuits and connections against the diagram in the above thread.  If you disconnected the idler board, you may have a cracked solder connection that is causing the problem.Yes, the battery has to be connected for the idler system to work properly and the activation input signals are low voltage/low current so don't start jumping things with 12v or you'll be sure to have a bad board.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Hey Duaneb:A buddy sent me an email telling me that you had responded, on account of the forums being so messed up. Thaks for your good help. I did check , again, the transformer wiring and cleaned the contacts on the Idler PC board. I carefully traced the wires and check at several points for continuity, which I got. Then I checked again for the output using 218, the one end of the stator coil transformer pickup and ground, # 5. So couldn't really read anything using the digital readout on the newfangled meter. So, I thought why not try an old radio shack analog meter? Know what? It registered to the tun of aobut 1/2 a volt DC. So , next I suppsoe is to pull the board and check for damage on those leads, and if nothing, hunt of another board. On last thing, the machine auto idle works great while welding . The output on the AC AUX is 115-120 AC, BUT , you need to flip the switch to get it revved up for this AUX only. Welds like a champ. Thanks for the help. Maybe this board will start to work again! LOL
Reply:Yeah, the it was a little frustrating navigating the forum for a few days there and one couldn't always tell if a post would go thru.  Looks like everything is back good as new now though.Back to the unit, you need to check for voltage between wires #218 and #5 with a load on an auxiliary AC outlet.  A 100W lightbulb should do and the reading will be an AC voltage not DC.  Disconnect wire #218 for the test and if you get an AC voltage output reading from the idler current transformer then it's likely a board problem.Now, seeing as the idler is working when welding, you'll notice on the idler board diagram here M14013_728200991007 AM.pdf that the weld signal and auxiliary signal circuits are identical with the exception of wire #216 which is a redundant ground for the welding idler transformer.  So, if you do get a reading between wires #218 and #5 with the lightbulb test, you can remove wires #216 and #217, secure them and plug wire #218 in where #217 goes.  Try the lightbulb load again and if the idler works this confirms the auxiliary signal circuit of the board is bad.  If it doesn't then the idler current transformer is suspect.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Hey Duane;Can you explain to me how that Idler Board works? I got the idea that it senses the AC input from the two separate transformers, but how does adjust the Idler Solenoid voltage after that happens ?And I tried what you siad, and found the board was bad on that AC AUX side of it. Got to board hunting now it looks. Thaks for the help
Reply:Well, there's a couple things going on but you're off to a good start.  In a nut shell the input signals - or lack thereof - control a couple transitors that control input signals to an OP-AMP (Operational Amplifier) or "chip" which controls another transistor and so on until the final transistor with enough capacity controls the ground for the idler solenoid.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:duaneb55 You need to go back to school. Those are nand gates not op amps.The nand gate works just like a and gate but the output is low not high.a and gate needs two highs to get a high output. a nand has a high output until it has two high inputs.horvik  To get the idle circuit to work you need two things to happen. 115 volts  AC on 3 and 5 to pcb and either the weld or AC power signal. Q1,Q2 or Q6 turn on. This turns X1 to the right state and turn Q3 on. discharges C3 (This is the timer) turns Q4 off. when current is removed Q3 is allowed to turn off. The recharge time of C3 is the 10 to 12 second timer. Q4 then turns Q5 on and solenoid is powered. Since most of the pc board is working I would look real hard at wires 218 and 5. from the current transformer. make sure wire 5 is really connected to the ground post with all the other wire 5s. Bad contact here and you will have symptoms like yours.Measure wire 218 to the ground stud see if you have near 0 ohms. The voltage on 218 and 5 should be similar to the voltage on wires 216 and 217 under load.They are both AC voltages and they are driving the same type circuit. make sure you have all your inputs before declaring the pcb bad.
Reply:Boy do I.  Or at least keep my control boards straight.I was just reviewing a a Legend remote current control board recently that uses a 358 OP-AMP and somehow confused the two.  And those 4011 NANDs have inverted outputs as well if it helps to show I have some understanding of what's going on - even though I made a major blunder.  Thanks for setting the record straight, the in-depth function description and lesson in humility.Back to the board, you did catch the part where he used the auxiliary AC current transformer output to activate the system on the weld transformer input as I suggested confirming the CT is functioning and indicates the auxiliary AC part of the board is not.  Connected correctly, it was working while welding so that part of the board is good.  Because 218 on terminal 217 caused the unit to function with an AC load, it can be assumed 5 has a good connection.  Agree?Last edited by duaneb55; 09-28-2010 at 01:10 AM.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Hey Duane;thanks a lot for your good help , couldn't have done it without you. That rebuilt board is working now like it should.
Reply:That's great news and thanks for the update!Did you have the original repaired or purchase a rebuilt outright?MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Hey Duane;Yup, good to be welding again. Got that board as a rebuilt from Stumpfs, a good outfit I then send back the old , bad PC idler board as a core charge and get the 75 bucks back. . Do you know much about Briggs & Stratton? The problem I got is a noise, I believe, coming from that 16 HP mill. After I run the better part of an hour, she makes kind of a "tinny" or "rubbing" kind of sound. Any ideas?Thanks a lot
Reply:Check for the air housing hitting the flywheel.  There's a baffle inside that may have broken loose or is just bent and making contact with the flywheel.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Hey Duane;I pulled of the shroud and looked good and solid. Then put an iron bar to the coil the other to my ear. Noticed that the flywheel had a high spot that hit the coil on every go round. Answer was to back the coil off to .010 and now all is fine. Also took the time to try to pry up on the flywheel against a solid bar, no play in that bearing.In the picture you can see the rubbing left of the coil  So looks and run loads better, like a Briggs should. Attached Images
Reply:Excellent troubleshooting and good job. I usually clean the entire outside of the flywheel and reset the coil gap any time I have the blower housing off.Thanks for the update.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Hey Duane;I saw that video of you trying different exhausts on that Weldanpower 150. So on the 16 HP Briggs, can you run that tractor style pipe that runs upright? i don't want to put something on the engine that is gonna mess up the deal.