tig welding cast aluminum frame?

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Have a projecti have been mulling around for a while now. It requires cutting the motor mounts off of a 954rr frame and welding on extrusions. My biggest concern is figuring out what this is made of and following the necessary procedures to retain integral strength. I'm posting a PDF I found that lists Hondas frame construction techniques. I am looking at bringing any shared information to my brother and sharing my findings since he has all the equipment and I know nothing. http://210.101.116.115/fisita/pdf/G359.pdf Attached Images
Reply:Not sure how to go about getting it, but I'm betting that Honda has a spec'd frame repair procedure, or states not to repair and only replace.  Maybe become friends with a Honda motorcycle dealer or service manager and see what they're willing to provide you.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Originally Posted by wintermuteNot sure how to go about getting it, but I'm betting that Honda has a spec'd frame repair procedure, or states not to repair and only replace.  Maybe become friends with a Honda motorcycle dealer or service manager and see what they're willing to provide you.--Wintermute
Reply:I'd be seriously afraid of welding on an aluminum 'cycle frame.  You should keep in mind that as a general practice, frames damaged in accidents are not repaired but scrapped.  I don't know of any motorcycle dealer that would entertain thoughts of welding one of those frames.  And with aluminum structures,airplanes in particular, components have a finite fatigue life--unlike steel parts which can have infinite fatigue life.  You can bet that the frame was designed fairly close "to the line" regarding stresses and fatigue life so if you start welding on it and upset that design, you risk a fracture failure later.  I just wouldn't do it, regardless of what equipment and know how you have.
Reply:Good advise, I spent 15 years in the motorcycle industry and was there when instead of straightening a bent fork tube you had to replace it. Insurance companies can't control how much talent your mechanics have so replacing damaged parts was the safe way to go....As mentioned aluminum frames have a life and when its time to stop using them they usually break.....  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Aluminum frames are heat treated after welding.  I wouldn't even weld a bracket on one because the heat changes things.GravelThe difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
Reply:Originally Posted by B_CGood advise, I spent 15 years in the motorcycle industry and was there when instead of straightening a bent fork tube you had to replace it. Insurance companies can't control how much talent your mechanics have so replacing damaged parts was the safe way to go....As mentioned aluminum frames have a life and when its time to stop using them they usually break.....
Reply:I'm not saying you can't do it.  It is, after all still a free country.  What I'm saying is you're taking some serious responsibility into your own hands when you mess with an aluminum motorcycle frame.  I'm sure you can point to lots of cases where guys have welded this, that and the other onto an aluminum frame.  In your case, I suspect you're not trying to fit that engine into your frame because of its improved fuel economy.  Most likely, it's for a performance increase so right away, you're increasing loads and stresses in the frame and you're compounding that trouble by welding on the frame and upsetting the original design.  I would never attempt a project like that and I would not ride a bike that had been modified in that manner.  Perhaps you'll include a dye check looking for cracks as part of your routine maintenance.  Let's just hope you don't take someone else with you when the thing comes apart on the road.
Reply:why are you changing the motor mounts?the 954rr is the lightest bike made  to date in the liter bikes and has one of the earliest muilt thickess cast, hydro formed, stamped, welded frames made.IF your messing with it trying to install bigger motor dont. The 954rr engine can make a safe 170 rwhp all motor 190 rwhp all motor with crazy cash wasted. my buddy used to ride a 350 rwhp one that was turbo. straight up retardedLast edited by Bigrich954rr; 01-27-2015 at 02:46 PM.
Reply:I repaired the aluminum frame on a Kawasaki ATV last year. I wasn't sure what grade wire the manufacteror used for the original weld, so hrough Kawi's website I was actually able to find the number to call the technicians/fabricators that were able to find out for me. I called and the guy said he'd look it up, two days later I get an email saying it was 5356, which I assumed. So see if you can find a number for somebody like that
Reply:Originally Posted by Bigrich954rrwhy are you changing the motor mounts?the 954rr is the lightest bike made  to date in the liter bikes and has one of the earliest muilt thickess cast, hydro formed, stamped, welded frames made.IF your messing with it trying to install bigger motor dont. The 954rr engine can make a safe 170 rwhp all motor 190 rwhp all motor with crazy cash wasted. my buddy used to ride a 350 rwhp one that was turbo. straight up retarded
Reply:Originally Posted by Mick120I guess it depends on what you're doing when it fails, as to what's to lose......
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave+1 I find it hard to imagine that the failure will occur when the bike is sitting still on it's kickstand.I'm interested in this thread, but would not want a modified aluminum bike frame under me.... at 70+ mph a failure will hurt.
Reply:Oh yeah welding on a frame is fine I do it all the time.....BUT  the LIABILITY  risk is something that might close your shop and put you in debt forever.....I pick and choose what frame work I do .....I can say one thing about this POST......If you don't have the experience to just go do it, you might want to hire someone that does.....Welding Aluminum is no cake walk especially what your planning Last edited by B_C; 01-28-2015 at 01:28 PM.  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Hello Toobroke0029, in a nutshell, everyone is saying that aluminum is one of those materials that has so many variables tied to it's use that unless you have "all" of the information, even a small mis-step could mean a catastrophic failure. In the welding industry of today there are no pre-qualified welding procedures for aluminum, this is because of not being able to control everything to a point where confidence can be applied to a lot of the welding that occurs on aluminum. Case by case is how aluminum welding procedures are qualified and this process doesn't allow for deviations. You can have a weld on aluminum that looks physically stunning, you can take that same weld and X-ray it and it looks absolutely clean without discontinuities, cracks, or other abnormalities, you can UT (ultra-sonically) test it and not have any issues show-up, you can macro-etch the weld and it's adjacent parent weld metal without issues, and yet when you do a destructive bend or tensile pull test on it a failure might occur long before the correct tensile pull has been attained or a fracture happens long before the parent material shows any deformation/bending.This is where you have to know for absolute sure what materials are involved, the correct filler metal that needs to be employed, , the correct procedure with regard to preheats, interpass temperatures, and post heats where applicable, the heat-treating regimen that needs to be applied and a lot of other information that you likely will not have access to in order to be able to "guarantee" the modification/welding that you attempt to perform. The guarantee that I speak of may seem of little consequence if you feel that you are the only one who is affected here, yet if you are dead and the right lawyer gets ahold of your family. Anyone who has consulted with you on this endeavor has just become a party to an ensuing lawsuit and yes we can thank our current legal system and a lot of it's lawyers for this. Yes, I am describing an extreme case scenario here and one that most will never experience. Yet, for those out there who have gone through something like this and they are out there, they likely would not care to do so again. Good luck and best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Great reply Allan..The bottom line is just do it....It sounds like you have made up your mind anyway just take into considerationthe load demand and over kill it....You can't go wrong with 4943 filler    Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:you will never make it straight enough to make the bike handle like it should
Reply:Originally Posted by dieselbeefyou will never make it straight enough to make the bike handle like it should
Reply:at the end of the day its how it rides..good luck wit dat..it aint some pos west coast chopper only gonna go 40 mph and look good