Rust under bed liner....

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I think I already know the answer to this but here it goes....I have a thread in the projects area where I'm detailing the build of the table for a TM 4x4 CNC plasma table w/ water table. A few days ago I filled the pan with about 3 inches of water and had leaks everywhere! Was pretty pissed as I used 3 tubes of 15$ per tube metal seam sealer and about 60$ worth of raptor liner on the tray.  I drained the table and found that wherever the raptor liner touched the seam sealer, the seam sealer started bubbling and made a large gas pocket between the 1/8 steel floor of the pan and the raptor liner. So, the gas build-up made holes in the raptor liner that let water into the big pockets and from there it went everywhere. I have 3 tubes of 2k epoxy seam sealer due to arrive by Thursday and I will be wire wheeling out all of the old seam sealer and raptor liner 3-5 inches from the seams before I respray. Problem is, when I was wire wheeling back from the edges I noticed that there was tiny rust spots under the liner. I'm worried that these will grow and dislodge the liner later on. The metal was perfectly clean and roughed up with 60 grit via orbital sander before I sprayed the liner. No paint/primer between the metal and liner. (upol rep said this is fine as long as the metal was roughed up properly).Should I strip everything in the tray to bare metal and start over with a quality primer-paint-liner combo? Precision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion
Reply:My table is down draft, never wanted to be bothered with water. But as to your problem why not clean it out and weld the seams solid  then maybe just a coat of paint if anything. Just my two cents worth. Mike
Reply:weld it solid brother
Reply:I was thinking of welding it solid. I haven't tried it yet, but I can only imagine all the porosity I'll get with the bits of seam sealer the wire wheel can't get to. Not to mention the heat.... I think I might give it a try anyway, tiny porosity holes have to be easier to plug than the hundreds of stitch welds I have now.Precision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion
Reply:Good old white 6011C will be your friend here. I've welded seams that people used tons of silicone on, burned right through the nasties. Seemed to me it worked better than 5P 6010 in that application. Don't know why.
Reply:You make metal watertight by welding it or forming with a lock seam and soldered, not with silly putty. Sorry.However you are correct and it could be a hassle welding it now. You could wire brush it out and use a torch to burn up the remainder in the corners. Then weld it up with some farmer rod. Or you could band aid the band aid by caulking it with 3M 5200. It's expensive but it will hold water. But again I'm not sure of the compatibility with the other bedliner you were using. Honestly, I think you are better off chalking this one up to a learning experience, scrap it. Form a new tank and weld it. Test for leaks, then coat it with ONE type of coating.RyanMiller Multimatic 200 tig/spool gun/wireless remoteMillermatic 350P, Bernard/XR Python gunsMiller Dynasty 350, Coolmate 3.5 & wireless remoteCK WF1 TIG wire feederMiller Spectrum 375 XtremeOptrel e684Miller Digital EliteMiller Weld-Mask
Reply:I'm going to make a guess here. You seal the corners and did not let it sit for 96 hrs before you applied the bedliner. Silicon off gases for about 48 hrs after it is applied, hence your bubbles. Welding all the way around is your best bet to seal the water pan and a good quality marine bottom paint to complete the seal.Klutch 220si mig , stick, and dc tigHobart 140 AHP ALPHA 200X 2016Lotos LTP5000DSmith O/P
Reply:It was a automotive grade seam sealer. Instructions say: 30 minutes to paint and 1-2 hours to dry. I waited overnight before I top coated with raptor liner.I welded up all the corners and did 1" stitch welds every other inch, so I only need to weld up half of the pan. the two bottom pans are sitting on 2x2's, so every edge that needs to be sealed is overlapping the beam underneath by a good inch. I think I will give the wire wheel and torch plan a go first. In hindsight I should of finished welding everything up, but my mig ran out of wire and I just said 'fu@k it' and sealed everything up with seam sealer figuring the build would be done sooner than if I waited for the new spool to arrive. If I see that welding is not an option I will fall back on the 2k epoxy seam sealer.Precision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion
Reply:you mean to tell us that there is no Tractor Supply's around you. Two small rolls of wire should have been enough to finished the pan.Klutch 220si mig , stick, and dc tigHobart 140 AHP ALPHA 200X 2016Lotos LTP5000DSmith O/P
Reply:There is a TSC just down the street. I also had enough filler rod to tig it in as well, but at least 80% of the advice I got on the CNC forums was to just stitch weld it in place and seal the edges with silicone. One guy said he used nothing but silicone and self tapping screw to install the bottom of his pan. With that advice in hand from people who have done it before I figured my stitch-weld and professional grade seam sealer would do the trick... And honestly if there wasn't a weird reaction between the liner and sealer I'm pretty sure it would have worked just fine. But, it would have been safer and quicker in the long run if i had just welded all the seams from the start. Lesson learned for the next time I make a water table.Precision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion
Reply:Originally Posted by 1967martiThere is a TSC just down the street. I also had enough filler rod to tig it in as well, but at least 80% of the advice I got on the CNC forums was to just stitch weld it in place and seal the edges with silicone. One guy said he used nothing but silicone and self tapping screw to install the bottom of his pan. With that advice in hand from people who have done it before I figured my stitch-weld and professional grade seam sealer would do the trick... And honestly if there wasn't a weird reaction between the liner and sealer I'm pretty sure it would have worked just fine. But, it would have been safer and quicker in the long run if i had just welded all the seams from the start. Lesson learned for the next time I make a water table.
Reply:Thanks Hobbytime (and everyone else). I'll be spending some quality time with the 4.5 grinder and wire wheels today. Not trying to argue the more risky method of water proofing..BUT... Torchmate sells their commercial tables that require you to use silicone on the mating surfaces to make it water tight, I think that if one uses compatible products a 'weld-n-calk' method will work.My main source of $$$$ is restoring old muscle cars and so I have gallons of the por15/rust bullet stuff to use. Attached ImagesPrecision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion
Reply:These are the same car 1966 GT fastback, before and after.Precision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion
Reply:Nice work on the cars!!!!  do you have them dipped to get rid of the rust in all the non accessible spots on the body and chassis? are those cars already owned by customers? or you restore and put them up for sale?..
Reply:They are all owned before I get a hold on them. I would say 95% of my customers are people that got screwed over and now are faced with having an unusable car. The one in the above pictures was sold to the owner as "rust free", when the owner was replacing the carped he found a stop sign RTV-ed to the floor. That led to him bringing it to me to 'patch the only hole in the floor', after I inspected it and showed him all the real damage he luckily decided to do a correct repair. I installed a late model front end kit w/ rack and pinion and a rear 4-link connected to a late model 8.8 in the rear. I don't normally dip cars, its getting harder and harder to find a place to do it and most of the time sand blasting is only good for situations where you are trying to save a piece of metal. Since I'm replacing everything that is damaged I almost never dip/sandblast the cars. Here is the next one on the chopping block (and yes it was brought to me like this):Precision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion
Reply:wow, not much left to it..lol..wheres the rest of it? did they at least drop a load of parts that came off of it?  do you mainly do ford mustangs?
Reply:I do all classic muscle. The car was on a a spinning dolly but it literally cracked in half on the way buyers way home. He heard of me through someone and called me up. The only thing i was provided that isn't in the picture was a firewall and frame rail section from the front. It's going to be a close copy of the martini mustang (check it out on youtube). 408 stroker, rod and custom front end rideteck triangulated 4-link in the rear and mini-tubs in the rear. I used to do a lot of vintage race cars and baja bugs out in SD before I packed up and moved out here. So I dabble in a lot of cars, but race cars are by far my passion. "If you aren't first you're last!"Precision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion
Reply:cool, keep the pics coming, I like when the old cars are brought back to life to be enjoyed...I had a 1968 chevelle back in the 80s I restored to drive and was doing a better resto in the early 90s, but had other stuff come up and ran out of time, sold it off to a father and son as a project..now im looking for another to work on...Last edited by Hobbytime; 04-20-2016 at 04:07 PM.
Reply:For welding your pan up get a can of spot check made by magna flux. You need a can of penetrant and a can of developer. Spray the developer on the outside and penetrant on the other side after you have welded it. Wait a while if red bleeds through you have a hole. This stuff will show you just how good you are. Mike
Reply:That spot check stuff is pretty cool. I'll have to order some next time I place a welding order.Just got finished wire wheeling and scrubbing everything with xylene and a metal bristle brush.  Got everything cleaned out and shiny. I'll got over all the seams again tomorrow with a fine wire wheel after everything has out gassed over night.Hopefully I'll be able to weld without too much difficulty.Precision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion
Reply:Good luck!Klutch 220si mig , stick, and dc tigHobart 140 AHP ALPHA 200X 2016Lotos LTP5000DSmith O/P
Reply:Beautiful work. If you were closer I'd be tempted to have you look at my old Plymouth..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWBeautiful work. If you were closer I'd be tempted to have you look at my old Plymouth.
Reply:These are a 67 I did...These are the same 66 gt from the last pictures. The car has minitubs that cam fit an honest 11.5" tire but all the OEM interior seats and fiberglass. Precision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion
Reply:I'll post up a few pictures tonight...I wire wheeled, scrubbed with acetone, washed with power purple and then a final wipe down with some more acetone... She welded up pretty good, there was a fair pit of porosity in a few spots where the seam sealer squeezed far enough under the plates that it was impossible to manually remove it. After I welded all the seams up I did a water test, no drips!I'm not foolish enough to think I sealed everything up that easy, so I also applied 2 coats of the 'creeping epoxy crack sealer' to all the welded seams. I'm waiting 36 hours for the 24 hour dry time before I scuff up the paint and start spraying down some marine primer and paint.Precision TIG 225MillerMatic 250Powermax 35XPPowermax 65TM 4X4 w/ water tableLagun FTV1Monarch 10EEJD2 M3 with hydro conversion