How would you fix this (bent engine hoist)?

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I'll be needing to pull the engine on my truck soon so I'll need to grab a cherry picker/engine hoist at some point. I just saw one pop up on CL for cheap ($50), but it's cheap because there's a bend in the main support. From the picture it looks like the hoist has the ram jack, but it also has a solid steel support that can be locked into place with a pin -- that's the red piece which is where the bend is at the bottom of it where it attaches to the hoist.Two questions:  1) It looks like the bend occurred because the static support was used, which puts a lot more pressure on the support since it's so much shorter than the jack. But if you're only using the ram jack, I feel like not only would there be no pressure in that direction of the bend, there would actually be a bit of pressure in the other direction as there would be upwards pressure above the bottom mount point of the jack. Is my thinking correct here? If so, fixing it may not be important if I never use the static support. The poster did say it's been used a fair amount as-is...  2) How would you go about fixing the bend? I'm thinking I could just weld a few pieces of plate around the tube where the bend is, but I'd obviously have to cut off the mounting bracket where the bend is, and then possibly cut out some of the bulging area to be able to weld on some flat plate. Or is there some other way that I could avoid the tubing?Of course I won't bother if the rest of the hoist isn't otherwise straight, but from the pictures it seems to still be reasonably straight and for $50 it seems like it'll get the job done. As good as a HF lift I'd think...at least. Oh yeah, my truck has a 4cyl 22RE engine, so it's not like it's very heavy to start with.Thanks! - Ian
Reply:Replace the whole square tube. Go up in wall thickness while you are at it.No point risking life and limb for a few dollars in steel.Hobart 210 MVPHTP Invertig 221 + coolerEverlast SuperUltra 205
Reply:I agree, get the same size tube in 3/6" wall and replace it would be the best. You could do as you think and cut out the bulging parts, straighten the tube, then plate all 4 sides. But I would think that you will end up with 1/2 the money and twice the time and have a weaker unit when done if you try to salvage it.Yeah, I know, but it'll be ok!Lincoln Square wave 255Miller Vintage mig30a spoolgunThermal Dynamics Pacmaster 100xl plasmaSmith mc torchEllis 1600 band saw
Reply:That does sound a lot easier and better for a few extra bucks...not sure why I didn't think of that, heh. Thanks guys! I'm second in line to grab it, so we'll see...
Reply:I suspect that red support tube is there for a safety, (no faith in the hydraulic jack) and obviously should not be used by itself without jack pressure to hold the load.Who knows what they lifted with it to crumble that tubing, maybe they overloaded it and dropped the jack hard with the pin in. I agree with replacing the tube and go thicker wall.
Reply:The guy said that he used it to lift the back end of a truck for an axle swap, which he left lifted overnight, and then it was bent in the morning. I'm assuming he left the pin in the safety and the cylinder lost pressure during the night, leaving the entire load on the safety. So yes, definitely user error. I expected as much since I wouldn't expect what looks like a pretty good quality USA-made hoist to fail like that unless it was pushed beyond its limits.
Reply:+1 on replacing the entire vertical bar.  I wouldn't try to straighten and weld the existing bent one, just replace that piece and probably replace the cylinder while you're at it .--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Yep.......replace the tube with something a little heavierMiller 252Miller Bobcat 225Lincoln MigPak 1801959 Hyster forkliftHarris OA torch
Reply:I do have another idea. Not that it is better.I might save the effort of all that. Cut out the bent section, find a long piece of square tube to fit inside of the existing section and slide it in the bottom piece, fit a sleeve the same size as the original damaged piece you removed, then slide the top half back on. You get the thicker wall thickness without having to start from complete scratch.I don't think a spliced piece with a thicker inner sleeve is any worse than what it was when it was new.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:I wouldn't want a hoist that wouldn't hold pressure overnight....  There are lots of time when I use my hoist to lift the engine and hold it while I am working under the engine replacing pan gaskets etc and I don't always get it done in one day and definitely would not want the engine to settle back down when I wasn't around.Miller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig  Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:Originally Posted by DougAustinTXI wouldn't want a hoist that wouldn't hold pressure overnight....  There are lots of time when I use my hoist to lift the engine and hold it while I am working under the engine replacing pan gaskets etc and I don't always get it done in one day and definitely would not want the engine to settle back down when I wasn't around.
Reply:Absolutely replace whole upright with larger cross section steel square tube, AND while you are at it, use TALLER piece of tubing...Been there, done that.How many times you ever attempted to lift an engine into the bed of our new pickup trucks?...Man, the typical new truck today is HUGE where I can barely peek over the tailgate, yaknow? My old 2 ton cherry picker just couldn't seem to lift that high before engine got in a bind with lifting boom or boom maxed out.Remove current damaged upright.....Cut both top and bottom pieces off leaving about 6" of original square tube attached to both...Go to steel yard and locate square tubing that old pieces will just fit inside and buy it 1 foot longer than original.Get home and weld old pivots in exact same distance as old from TOP of original upright...Insert top and bottom tubes and weld in place, then enjoy it.
Reply:BYW, the bottle jack in the pic is a Harbor Freight jack...No big deal, just know what you getting...At least they keep them in stock if you ever need a replacement.
Reply:I would cut the mounts for the ram and the support off  after noting where they were located. Hammer the tube back into shape then run a strip of what appears to be about 3" wide by 1/2" flat bar about 2 or 3 feet long over the mounting area. That tube buckled because the so called safety brace has about 4 times the force on it due to leverage and a small base area.
Reply:We now how it bent ... the safety support took ALL of the load for a long period of time... which it is not designed to do.But HOW did it bend??look at the mounting bolts for the jack.  draw a straight line from the center of the top bolt to through the center of the bottom bolt .... the bottom mounting bracket follows this line transferring all of the load in a vertical path and down to the tube where it can be passed to the base.now draw a straight line from the center of the top bolt for the safety jack through the bottom bolt .... you end up in open air.  When all of that load went to the safety jack it was transferred to the bottom bolt and the bottom bracket which had no easy vertical path to transfer the load.  Instead it is cantilevered.  Now instead of compressing the tube along its length vertically [essentially, not perfectly] you are compressing the center of the tube with fixed ends essentially trying to crush the tube ...  well, succeeding at crushing the tube, not trying per se.  The tube was loaded in the weakest direction and the cantilever multiplied the force of the original load (in addition to the location of the safety jack being closer to the pivot point) as well as changing its direction.  Had the safety jack bracket been designed like the lifting cylinder bracket ... i suspect it may not have failed.AWS CWI xxxx21711968 SA200  Originally Posted by WelderMike  I hate being bipolar, It's awesome.
Reply:Originally Posted by AFFENDEWe now how it bent ... the safety support took ALL of the load for a long period of time... which it is not designed to do.But HOW did it bend??look at the mounting bolts for the jack.  draw a straight line from the center of the top bolt to through the center of the bottom bolt .... the bottom mounting bracket follows this line transferring all of the load in a vertical path and down to the tube where it can be passed to the base.now draw a straight line from the center of the top bolt for the safety jack through the bottom bolt .... you end up in open air.  When all of that load went to the safety jack it was transferred to the bottom bolt and the bottom bracket which had no easy vertical path to transfer the load.  Instead it is cantilevered.  Now instead of compressing the tube along its length vertically [essentially, not perfectly] you are compressing the center of the tube with fixed ends essentially trying to crush the tube ...  well, succeeding at crushing the tube, not trying per se.  The tube was loaded in the weakest direction and the cantilever multiplied the force of the original load (in addition to the location of the safety jack being closer to the pivot point) as well as changing its direction.  Had the safety jack bracket been designed like the lifting cylinder bracket ... i suspect it may not have failed.
Reply:Originally Posted by wornoutoldwelderAFFEND,After I un curled all what you stated in the above, I remembered an old saying...."A man will tend to chase his tail in ever diminishing circles till he stuffs his head firmly up his arse."All that time you just spent going in circles I never saw a chance to deflect you in any straight direction...Because NONE of it made any sorta sense, right or wrong.But that's cool and all ain't wasted, because I'm attempting to design a scribble machine that never repeats itself and goes on endlessly in random patterns in a perpetual motion sorta way.A guy once stated that the most challenging curve to attempt to express mathematically is one that never manages to intersect  it's self....Maybe you finally discovered it?
Reply:Originally Posted by wintermuteThat is a terrible idea btw.  You realize there is just one little o-ring keeping that thing up even when it holds pressure perfectly right? That's a very small failure point to bet your *** on.--Wintermute
Reply:I probably wouldn't repair it myself. That style hoist is commonly under $250.00 complete and new from a lot of the home centers, cheap tool stores, and of course Harbor Freight. Citing it already has a cheap jack on it that leaks down, I'd scrap the whole assembly as my thoughts are a person's life and limb and much more important than the compromise working with this thing is to possibly save a few dollars. It's not my call but you asked the best way to fix the problem. I have a similar but much heavier duty unit for pulling heavy truck diesel engines. I've removed from my lift truck, and readily moved the 4800# counterweight without boom deflection a few times along with other heavy things and this unit, built from scrap, costs just about what one of those inexpensive units run in it's basic form.SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:So I ended up picking up the jack yesterday for $50. I forgot to take a picture when it was all together. I took it apart when it was in the truck so that I could move it into the garage. It is indeed a HF jack, and he did say that it was a replacement jack for the one that leaked when he left it lifted overnight and caused the bend, too.Besides the bent upright which is 1/8", all tubing is 3/16" thick. The extendable legs are 2.5" square in 3" square, and they can be extended pretty far. All mounting brackets are 1/4". Made in USA and it seems to have been made pretty well.A lot of good repair ideas were offered here (thanks!), so I'm trying to decide what I want to do.Whether or not it's worth it to repair, that's not really the point for me. I'm just a hobbyist, and I'm just the kind of guy that likes to fix things but I don't always have things that need to be fixed. So it's probably not worth the time for people that do this professionally, but for me fixing the hoist is just something else to do.
Reply:Originally Posted by wornoutoldwelderAFFEND,After I un curled all what you stated in the above, I remembered an old saying...."A man will tend to chase his tail in ever diminishing circles till he stuffs his head firmly up his arse."All that time you just spent going in circles I never saw a chance to deflect you in any straight direction...Because NONE of it made any sorta sense, right or wrong.But that's cool and all ain't wasted, because I'm attempting to design a scribble machine that never repeats itself and goes on endlessly in random patterns in a perpetual motion sorta way.A guy once stated that the most challenging curve to attempt to express mathematically is one that never manages to intersect  it's self....Maybe you finally discovered it?
Reply:I think for $50 you did real good - the replacement jack/cylinder costs as much.A new tube and you're all set Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Don't leave us hanging. Post some pics when you finish the repair.Hobart 210 MVPHTP Invertig 221 + coolerEverlast SuperUltra 205
Reply:So the upright is 3x4", but I just called my local metal shop and the only 3x4" they stock is 1/4" wall, which is way overkill for a full tube replacement. So I'll either need to find another source or just opt for another repair of the damaged section. I like the idea of sliding another tubing inside/outside this one, but I'm also not sure if there's actually a tube that will fit it well. (I'm up in Fort Collins, CO if anybody could suggest a metal shop that might have 3x4, either 1/8" or 3/16" wall).It's cold out there in the garage today, but maybe some time with a torch and a hammer trying to see how straight I can get it might warm me up a little.
Reply:Just buy the 1/4" wall tube. Can't weigh that much more, and gives you more support.I'm a hobbiest, and I like to fix things just for the sake of fixing, but I would NEVER try to straighten or repair that part. You are putting your life in danger and you say that's acceptable. But who knows where this thing ends up in a year or two? Then someone gets killed or maimed because they did not know you affected the strength by heating, hammering, and welding on tube? Not worth it.Do the right thing or take the $50 loss and scrap it.Last edited by wb4rt; 02-16-2015 at 03:45 PM.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.comOriginally Posted by ian1386So the upright is 3x4", but I just called my local metal shop and the only 3x4" they stock is 1/4" wall, which is way overkill for a full tube replacement. So I'll either need to find another source or just opt for another repair of the damaged section. I like the idea of sliding another tubing inside/outside this one, but I'm also not sure if there's actually a tube that will fit it well. (I'm up in Fort Collins, CO if anybody could suggest a metal shop that might have 3x4, either 1/8" or 3/16" wall).It's cold out there in the garage today, but maybe some time with a torch and a hammer trying to see how straight I can get it might warm me up a little.
Reply:Originally Posted by wb4rtJust buy the 1/4" wall tube. Can't weigh that much more, and gives you more support.I'm a hobbiest, and I like to fix things just for the sake of fixing, but I would NEVER try to straighten or repair that part. You are putting your life in danger and you say that's acceptable. But who knows where this thing ends up in a year or two? Then someone gets killed or maimed because they did not know you affected the strength by heating, hammering, and welding on tube? Not worth it.
Reply:Can you go bigger? Did you ask if they had 4x4 3/16" wall? Seems like that would still fit.Hobart 210 MVPHTP Invertig 221 + coolerEverlast SuperUltra 205
Reply:If you don't spread the load out on the lower ram mounts it will fail again.
Reply:Hey, Zizzle.I have basically that same shop crane. I think he will have to have 3" to fit the lift arm and the bottom brackets. I just think the difference in 3/16" and 1/4" over about 4' is not much weight and adds a lot to the strength of that main member. To Ian: "First of all, I never said that putting my life at risk is acceptable. I'm not sure where you got that impression." I'm not trying to argue here, only trying to help. The fact that you seem to persist in ignoring several experienced welders that have said this is not a good idea and the potential downside is huge, is where I got this impression. I'm sorry if you are offended, but I would not take the risk.I am not a welder by trade either, in fact much closer to your profession, but have been welding for about 8 years. I know there are proper ways to weld tube and ways that weaken the tube. My understanding is you would not want to weld across the tube, so not sure of the right technique to do what you plan. Not a problem to shop around and see if you can find a suitable piece. I have occasionally found tube that size in my local scrap yard, but these days they charge almost the same per pound as new. Good luck with your project!Last edited by wb4rt; 02-16-2015 at 10:39 PM.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:It might take you a little bit of looking but you should be able to find a piece of 3x4x3/16. I looked at a couple online resources and found one at Metal Depot for $86.00 for a 6' piece. Don't know what all is available in your area, but in Wichita there is a place called the Yard that deals with all kinds of metal etc also all kinds of used aircraft machining supplies.  Some times the local metal dealer I purchase from might not have exactly what size metal I need in stock but he has said if not in a big hurry he can try ordering other sizes with his next order.
Reply:Originally Posted by ian1386So the upright is 3x4", but I just called my local metal shop and the only 3x4" they stock is 1/4" wall, which is way overkill for a full tube replacement. So I'll either need to find another source or just opt for another repair of the damaged section. I like the idea of sliding another tubing inside/outside this one, but I'm also not sure if there's actually a tube that will fit it well. (I'm up in Fort Collins, CO if anybody could suggest a metal shop that might have 3x4, either 1/8" or 3/16" wall).It's cold out there in the garage today, but maybe some time with a torch and a hammer trying to see how straight I can get it might warm me up a little.
Reply:Just use the 1/4 wall tube. The difference in weight is about 2.4 lb/ft, so your talking 8-10lbs total difference. How much shopping and driving and labor can you do for $10-20.00?Yeah, I know, but it'll be ok!Lincoln Square wave 255Miller Vintage mig30a spoolgunThermal Dynamics Pacmaster 100xl plasmaSmith mc torchEllis 1600 band saw
Reply:JFC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The "safety thingy" is probably like the things on most hydraulically operated equipment.  It's something to put in there when you remove the cylinder, or work on the cylinder.  It has nothing to do with the actual function of the cherrypicker.Replace the stinkin' mast, and call it a day"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammThe "safety thingy" is probably like the things on most hydraulically operated equipment.  It's something to put in there when you remove the cylinder, or work on the cylinder.  It has nothing to do with the actual function of the cherrypicker.
Reply:Dave, all my discs have a "transport lock" like the thing on the cherrypicker.  They're meant to use when moving the equipment without a cylinder.  AND they can cause a lot of trouble when you forget you have them in, and try to actuate the cylinder.  Stuff gets bent real bad"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I got it guys, I'll replace the tube.
Reply:I doubt the safety was meant to casually hold the arm up under load.Where it is positioned and the loading angles involved,it would have far more load on it then the ram.
Reply:I'm sure the safety gizmo would have worked fine on an engine, or engine and tranny, which it was designed to be used for. . They don't call 'em "truck hoists".."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:I used mine for loading cars with no axles onto the trailer.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTI used mine for loading cars with no axles onto the trailer.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveGet a tractor and you'll have more fun I use my WD Allis to lift the front, then back the trailer under it.  Then I scoop up the back and push it on - super easy
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTOh it is on my mile long list of things I "need to get".  The problem I am having though is people won't give me money for these things.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveGet a tractor and you'll have more fun I use my WD Allis to lift the front, then back the trailer under it.  Then I scoop up the back and push it on - super easy
Reply:Originally Posted by BlueweldersGet a JohnDeere, tell the government you're going green.Lots of no questions asked money to be had.
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyI'm sure the safety gizmo would have worked fine on an engine, or engine and tranny, which it was designed to be used for. . They don't call 'em "truck hoists"..
Reply:I have a crane exactly the same as that in my shop. I don't consider it safe enough to lift an engine from a car,Any engine when it comes to that. They are unstable(even with legs extended out each side and the top pivot bends when supporting an engine. The damn thing has even tipped over. It's only used for lifting light stuff into trailers etc and there's a bracket on the end of the arm for lowering and lifting trannys into cars. Now if you really want to make it safe , replace the vertical pillar with a 6" X 2" x 1/4" RHS .Gusset the bottom with 1/4" plate and instead of that pissweak bolt on the top pivot,use a 1" diameter shaft with bearings on each side.  This how my other crane was built (bought for $90 at an auction ) and has worked well for the last 15 years. I think the biggest problem lays with that top pivot which twists under load,especially when moving an engine across a less than smooth floor.
Reply:Not that much time this weekend, but enough to buy the new tube (went with the 1/4" wall) and get the old mounts cut off and cleaned up. It'll be about 6" taller than stock and a lot sturdier.
Reply:Good job cutting and cleaning up those parts. Good choice on the new tube - you will be much safer and will be glad you went with that option.Post pictures of the finished crane.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Good stuff! Looking forward to the rebuild pics!990# or so on mine here.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829