Vantage 300 flat bead

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I have a vantage 300 and while testing on 12" .250 wall pipe and running a 5/32 bead my bead goes in great on the top quarters, but when i do my bottom quarters it flattens out bad i know i can push it through but while testing for elpaso they looked me out before i was even finished because my bead was so flat on the bottom what can i do to make it consistent with the top halves.. I have tried everything and the only thing that seems to somewhat work is to run low heat and work it in but it always wants to stick on me any ideas out there to help me out.....
Reply:If you want the bottom to look like the top - then **** up the top too.   First - running a stringer bead in .250" wall 12" pipe (on a 45) with a 5/32 5P+ is tough even for me and I've spent most of my welding life as a professional bead hand on pipeline jobs.There is a difference in the way the top of the pipe and the bottom of the pipe welds but usually it's us that makes it weld differently, not the pipe.  If we could do the exact same thing all the way around the pipe we would find that the art of running stringer beads only requires very slight adjustments as we move down the pipe, usually not the major adjustments that many of us make by mistake.  Bringing it back to the basics like that can be difficult but if we do then we should be able to see what I mean.There is an old saying for what you describe is happening to your bottoms.  Its called getting her deep.  And it sounds like you're getting her plenty deep.Try lightening up a little and see what that does.  The harder you push the more you've got to turn it up, and it sounds like you're plenty hot. lolGood luck man
Reply:But thats the thing i have had a few other guys try putting a bead in with my machine and it does the same thing to them, when ive welded with a different machine or there machines havent had much of a problem with it being pushed through the first time i run it, some say its a vantage thing but i just wanna learn to do it with my machine without having to get a different one guess i need to just keep trying new variables and asking around....
Reply:I have a Vantage 300 (check it out http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=45195 ) and I've made several xray pipe welds with it - without a repair I can gladly say, so the machine isn't the problem.  They'll weld xray pipe and they do it pretty well.  The arc is smooth and the machine puts out the voltage so it'll weld, but IMO it does weld differently than some machines I've used.What I most like about my Vantage is running a stringer bead in a wide top because it does that so well for me.  Thats a combination of the OCV, the amp to volt ratio (the slope) and the smoothness of the arc.  On a wide top its a very hard machine to beat IMO.  Those qualities might post problems to some if they don't understand what they've got.To make a wide - flat - more than likely somewhat undercut bottom the first thing it takes is heat.  To tear up that much pipe you've got to be running quite a bit of heat, and in this case, too much heat it sounds like.  lol  I say that because too little heat and there isn't any bead in there what so ever.  To make a big wide flat bead in the bottom you've got to "get her in there deep man"    To do that you've got to run way way way too much heat, which means you're going way way way too slow with that much heat.As an example lets think about this.  Say I have a robot thats running a stringer for me.  I tell him to hold the same rod angle, rod pressure, travel speed, and shut his eyes (don't change nothing).  Lets say the space and landing are ideal and consistent and so is the preheat.  Now the only variable thats left is the heat and I'm the one turning the knob.I set my robots heat at the lower end of the spectrum (only enough to maintain a steady arc).  He'll start running that bead and won't be getting through because he doesn't have enough heat for the way he's doing it.  Now lets say that every inch or so he travels I give him another 5 points more heat.  When I get the heat up hot enough he'll start getting through a bit and the weld will now begin to show up on the inside.  It'll be pretty small in there (just squirted through) and not built up much.  As I continue increasing the heat the bead will start getting bigger and wider and at some point - "we'll be dialed in man".  The heat will be the correct heat for his travel speed, his rod pressure, his rod angle, the space, the landings, the preheat, the machines amps and volts output, etc, etc, etc.  At that point the bead will be the best he can do with what he's got to weld with and the way he's doing it.  To make a better weld either he'll haft to change one of his variables or we'll haft to get a machine with a different slope (amp to volt ratio).He keeps welding so I keep turning him up.  At some point the bead will start to flatten out because now we have excessive heat for his other unchanging variables.  At some point, after the maximum has been reached, the weld will no longer bridge the space and it begins to fall out.I've ran xray beads on pipe with machines that would only put out 13 volts and with ones that would put out as many as 30 volts, so a bead can be run with just about any machine that'll burn a rod, but the proper amps and volts ratio is still very important.  My Vantage puts out a very nice realistic amp to volt ratio and for me its pretty easy to run a good stringer bead with.Not too long ago one of my friends ask me, "since you own a Vantage do you think my son would like one?"  (he's a young pipe welder with about 4 years experience I think).  I told him, "I think it's going to depend how he runs a bead.  If he runs them with a lot of pressure and a big keyhole then no I don't recommend it for him."  See, welding with the Vantage is easy if you understand what you've got there.  The amps and volts are pretty good, but is your technique tuned up properly for it.  I ask this because I think you claim to do better with older machines.  What amps and volts are you welding with on them, and how much different is their ratio?I'm tired now.Later manLast edited by slowhand; 05-01-2011 at 12:25 PM.
Reply:So all in all is what your saying is to crank the heat up and run it fast right...  I know i can pass a test with it its just the nit picky inspector who wanted my bead to be pushed out all the way in one pass... Im just a young guy startin out and always lookin for advice to advance my skills so thanks for the advice i appreciate it..
Reply:Originally Posted by circle ryI have tried everything and the only thing that seems to somewhat work is to run low heat and work it in but it always wants to stick on me
Reply:Ya read them... And when i said work it in i was meaning side to side with low heat to build it up ... goin back and forth as if it was thumbnailing the whole time.. I been running a nickel landing with nickel gap if it gets tight i will run a zip disk through it to get my gap seems to work pretty good also when i try running high heat fast i notice undercut in bead so i turn it down to  get rid of that seems like my remote is really sensitive little is alot lol.. just run a couple tonight its gettin somewhat better just not what i think that inspector was lookin for because last time he wouldn't even let me push it in with a hot... but o well better luck next time then out of eleven welders three passed so i guess i cant feel too bad but i want to be able to run a bead with my vantage and not have to worry about pushing it in one time and have inspector check it out guess it don't just come overnight for some of us but practice makes perfect
Reply:First I must say that a nickle land and a nickle space on that 250 wall x 12" test is too wide man.  You're looking at it wrong, and also setting yourself up for a bust.  To prove my point I mentioned today to my friend and welding pardner (same one as on my Vantage pages) that I had been talking to you on the forum lately.  I explained to him that your bead in the bottom of your test was wide and flat with your Vantage 300.  Without any help from me he said, "Nickle space, nickle lands, and he's in there deep.  I can see that happening pretty easily under those conditions",  he said.I then ask him, "would you take that much space on that test?" He quickly replied, "Hell no man!!!!"     You've got it in your mind that you need to "get it in there deep" so to make that very much possible you open up the space.  Now its going deep for sure, no other way.On light wall pipe with that nickle space now it guarantees that if you don't have at least nickle lands you'll burn her completely up trying to run your bead with that big old 5/32.See - - - do you follow what I'm trying to say?  You're going at it all wrong man and its eating you up.  Hell, that lineup would eat me up too more than likely.Now for the weld:You start your bead and the end of your rod burns itself completely through the bevels and all of its fire is now on the inside of the pipe. Mistake #1.   A bead can be run like that but once you're in there that deep it now takes some finesse and experience to actually pull it off correctly on a test, especially on hard pipe.  (I call it choke)..You try to keep the heat down as low as you can but at times your rod sticks.  Mistake #2.  You don't run a test like that.  Its too if-y.The farther you travel down the pipe the wider and flatter your bead gets.  Mistake #3.  It gets wider and flatter because you're in there so deep you're now fighting the laws of physics and also the laws of gravity.  Its take even more heat to do that, don't you know.You're now looking at a **** load of internal undercut (possibly among other ugly defects - remember - the bigger the bead the harder it is to tie in to and make it look right) that you want to try and push it out with the hot pass.  Mistake #4.  Not very many testing inspectors will let you do that.  Most times the root has to be good or it ain't going to fly, no matter who you are.  Besides, a wide bead don't usually hump up and push out with the hot pass like a small bead does.  Usually once you get it hot enough to push its so hot it sags down (flattens out worse).  Remember this.  A small bead will push in, but a big bead usually sucks back.The way you setup and ran a bead in your nipples has now cost you this job.  Mistake #5.  You know what that'll mean better than I.You blame the Vantage for some of this. Mistake #6.  The Vantage will weld pipe, but it'll put out some volts man,  and if you don't know what I mean by that - then you've got some learning to do.Good luckLast edited by slowhand; 05-02-2011 at 08:03 PM.
Reply:Ha ha ya gotta lot to learn..  and another thing is the inspector told me that i was too tight and needed a nickel land and space like he was the one welding it so thats what i started practicing nickel land nickel space thinking that it would help but obviously its not, they told me i was too tight on my gap but yet they let me carry on after i showed them my tack up... I was a bit tight on one side but figured zip disk would take care of it no problem, they looked me out told me to get some more practice then come see them again so now i'm trying to perfect it because i hate failing something i love to do i know its not the machine its just gotta be ran with different variables then what other machines have.... What type of landing and gap would you prefer, and dig setting..Last edited by circle ry; 05-02-2011 at 11:16 PM.Reason: addin stufff
Reply:Yea, I know.  The real art of pipelining seems to be slipping down the tubes as the years has gone by.  But, thats only my opinion.     Who actually remembers why we weld downhill?  It was for the speed.  If its for speed then why would someone tell you to take a nickle space and (non standard) nickle lands when all that will do is slow you down.    See, the art of it all is slipping away.With my Vantage I'd want "NO MORE" than a penny land and a penny space when I tacked up.  I'd actually use pennies to space with.  Oh yea.  The best pennies are 1968 D's.    Been told that by some good welders before.    Then I'd be looking forward to running a "no surprises" root pass.  I'd want to just hold it in there and let my Vantage do its thing.  If I had to do anything that required my superior knowledge then I'd probably be pissed off.   The last thing I want to do is call upon any of my experience to save my a@@.  I'd want it to be a no-brainer experience.  I wouldn't want to change rod pressure, heat, rod angle, anything from top to bottom if I could.  Just weld.  But I can't do any of that if I'm "getting in her deep and gutting her out".  Instead, I'm going to keep her nice and safe if I can. I'd try about 250 and start welding on 50 or 55 on the remote.  I'd say thats pretty close.  If I needed up or down I'd go 2 1/2 at a time.  But I'd want "perfect heat in perfect space" to be 50 on the remote so I might need to move the big knob a little.  That way I know where I'm at at all times on the heat.  My experience with my Vantage says it welds good there for me, so 50 is where I want it.Here's one of the problems you are facing.  The .250 wall pipe with that big 5/32 rod.  When you get that 5 hot enough to burn its almost too much for the light wall pipe - especially on a test weld.  On the line in production mode then YES I'd want a 5 for the speed it can give me, but on a test weld, especially if its on a 45 degree,  that 5 can be a bear if you let it get out of hand.To stay on top of that 5 you first need to keep it burning.  To do that requires the right space and land.  The rod is going to take a certain amount of amps to run.  If its too wide then you can't run the heat you need.  If its too tight you can always soften.  Even then the Vantage can make it look good (if you do it right).  To tight won't hurt you if you have a good helper, but too wide and its now an if-y deal.  That you don't want.IMO one of the big deals today is the welding voltage we're dealing with.  Your machine will put out the volts just fine and as you get more experience with it you'll see just how important having volts really is.  For now - those volts may cause you come minor problems, but the real truth of the matter is (IMO), those volts is what makes it all work right in the end.  Let me try to explain....(IMO) Volts is arc characteristics and spray and without those (without the proper amount of them) a welder is hurting.  He's hurting because all thats left is the amps (dig and travel speed) for him to weld with.  A machine will a low voltage output is a wet machine.  Its fast yea, but its sloppy (IMO).  A machine with good voltage output is a dry machine.  It might feel slow to you, but its neat and consistent for you under the hood.  Running a bead with a wet machine you'll find that you usually use more heat than you should because of the wet puddle.  The wet puddle will flow out more and it will also seem to cover a lot undercut that you might be having.  In a way its sorta forgiving to the unlearned.  It won't stand up though.A dry machine doesn't seem to flow much.  It freezes.  This freezing effect is the volts that helps cool the puddle.  I prefer a dry puddle myself over a wet one.  For me its easier to weld with a dryer puddle but I am experienced enough to want to deal with it.  And usually a dry machine has a pretty nice arc characteristic.  They seem to have some spray in them.  I use this spray to my advantage.  I like to just beary shave off the lands.  You know if you don't get all that fire inside the pipe it can't undercut don't you?Setting high in the saddle spraying in a small bead is where its all at man.  Now thats pipelineing!!!!!   This other stuff is crap.  Choke it up or get your money.  What else can you do when you're in there that deep.  Gut it?  I think not.I prefer a dry arc over a wet arc because for me its a lot easier to weld with.  I also prefer a smooth arc over a rough arc.  IMO a rough arc makes me run more heat because of the actual heat I loose between the high output pulses and all those low output rough pulses.   But a smooth machine can also make you run more heat than necessary because we might be so used to the roughness of a bad machine that we try to recreate that on our smooth machine. (?)    All this can be seen if we would just watch ourselves.Another tid-bit if you will.  When I was taking my pilot training my instructor ask me, "do you stop when you know you can't stop, or do you go when you know you can't go?".  He said, "you stop even when you know you can't because you're better off crashing trying to stop than crashing with the throttle wide open."  My point?  If it ain't going your way then STOP and fix the problem.  Even if you think you can't stop.I'm tired now.  Good luck manLaterLast edited by slowhand; 05-03-2011 at 06:32 PM.
Reply:It seems like i have tried everything different landing different gap low heat high heat different rod angles dig settings and all comes out the same besides low heat and walkin the bottom im out of ideas i have probably weld on 20 to thirty different coupons with the dang thing and almost always the same outcome but i got the machine and may as well keep trying thanks for the advice.. gonna go back out and change some stuff up again and see if i can get it...
Reply:A flat bottom......  What causes it....I've tried to tell you above but I guess you didn't get it, so I'll try again.  Running that bead is a manner of heat, travel speed, rod pressure, rod angle, space, landings, Xgrade of the pipe, angle of the bevels, amount of high-low in the fit, angle of the weld, etc. etc.  The list goes on and on I'm afraid.What do I do......  I've said it all above I'm afraid.If you run that bottom with "too little heat" then you don't get a bead in there at all.  Its all on the outside of the bevels.  You need to try that then you'll know that for yourself. Second.  If I set my heat right, and if I've got all those other variables right, then I can run a pretty bead.  As pretty as possible unless I want to change one or more of the variables i have control of, or change my machine (or how its setup).To show you that I'm afraid I'd just haft to show you in person.  That I cannot do......  So you're on your own I guess.#1.  Don't get all that fire inside the pipe.  Try doing that by managing your heat.  Besides saying that I can't say much that will help ya I'm afraid.To make a wide flat bead you must have a huge amount of fire inside the pipe.  Enough fire in fact so it makes the weld flow out really wide.  Your travel speed must also be very slow in order for you to leave enough weld inside the pipe for it to be that wide.  Stop doing either of the those things and its not wide anymore.The more you heat up the pipe, the more fire you have inside the pipe, the more heat you run, the slower you go, the more rod you burn off inside the pipe, THE BIGGER THE BEAD IS GOING TO BE!!!!!! (  ), and the wider its going to be.If I'm trying to run a small skiny bead in the bottom what do I do.  I go fast.  Why would I go slow - - - because I know if I did the bead is going to be not skinny - - - BUT WIDE!!!!!Get it man?  The bead is wide and flat because because of how you're doing it, not because of some strange VANTAGE thing.   In fact.  The Vantage is pretty hard to bead.  Get the hang of welding with yours and you'll see for yourself.Good luck man
Reply:Ya thanks man... gonna keep trying gonna have one of my weldin buddy slash tutor help me out tomorrow night try to figure the problem with someone with more knowledge then i have, gonna run my machine and then his classic 300D to see the difference in beads, hes told me he has run vantages before a few different ones plus mine and has the same problem so were gonna hopefully figure out how to solve the different variable...
Reply:I'm not a pipeliner but a mistake that I've seen a lot is people somtimes do the wrong thing trying to fix a problem. I.E. this weld isn't building up so they slow down trying to get more fill only to burn through. Sometimes the hardest fixes are the ones right in front of you. If your buddy knows his stuff have him watch through the hood don't just start throwing settings at it. When you understand what to look for you can than fix it.Millermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:thanks will be doin that
Reply:Actually we're back to what I've already said, if you only knew what I was talking about.  Ok, its a bad Vantage.  What it does is weld so badly that the bead in the bottom is wide and flat (and probably undercut).  But at the same time you said the top 1/2 looks good, its only shows this problem when you're welding a bottom.  Lets see...... ?  What could be the problem.My experience (and I've run beads with some junk in my life believe me).  A machine thats so bad you can't run a decent bottom will also show all this bad traits on the top.  Its the same machine - - - right?  So the top will also show signs of it being a messed up machine. For a machine to be so messed up that you can't run a small bead in the bottom means for 1, its got an extremely rough arc.  2, it extremely watery (high amps to volts ration).  3, the only way to control these bad traits is to really press hard on the rod (to try and kill off some of those bad traits).  4, It has no spray.  The only way to put in a bead is to melt off the bevels (which means you fire is now all inside the pipe).  And 5, its a real bear to deal with.A machine that bad won't cap.  The cap will be so hard to manage and watery you just can't do anything with it.  It'll hot pass but it'll undercut the bevels so bad it'll be hard to fill over, not to mention how hard the slag will be to buff of the weld.  On every cap the center will be concave no matter how high you fill and strip it.  Its rough and watery.  You'll have so much molten metal under your rod will trying to cap the whole process will be extremely difficult.  You'll recap every weld especially in the side.  Trying to cap the bottom it will blow the pipe away and refuse to tie-in to it and your cap will either blow off the weld entirely or all run to the middle.  Again making the entire process extremely aggravating.   If that what your Vantage is acting like then yes you have a problem and it now needs serviced.  But if it caps and fills good - - - then the problem is what I think it is.  Operator error.     (no pun intended)Bring it out on my job and let me and my pardner try it out.  If it's messed up we'll tell you after 1 rod.12" x .250 wall pipe.  On production I'd be running the bead with 2 rods.  One for each side.  And I'd have a pretty nice stub left off each rod if that machine welds like mine does.  And they all would pass xray.  On a test I'd use 4 rods (1 for each quarter) but I'd have a good stub off each rod.  But on the line I'd be making that off side with 1 rod almost every time.  Besides, thats only 19" (or so) per side.  You should be almost making it with 1 rod.  At least 14" pre rod.  That only 1:1 and that ratio has always been at least the standard soak.  Anyone can do that, right? To put a big wide flat bead in the bottom you haft to be using way over my 1 rod pre-side.  More like 2 1/2, for the bead to be that wide.I run beads every day on this job and I don't have big wide beads in the bottom on any of my welds.  And on this job (over 13 months now and still here) I've welded with some real junk man.  Machines that just won't cap at all because they break arc and are so watery you just can't do anything with them.  But even then, I wasn't putting in big wide bottoms. lolGood luckLast edited by slowhand; 05-05-2011 at 05:43 PM.
Reply:Like some one said in a different post a good welder can weld with anything a bad welder blames his equipmentMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:Well thanks for the help guys me and my buddy got it figured out tonight we both weld one side and had the same little  problems but we got our beads to push through quite good and it wasn't flat just had to watch each other and figure it out... Blame the machine was just and easy excuse i guess just like you guys and my bud said.." gotta keep practicin and learn the machine" its just me bein young dumb and impatient but im gonna have it and hopefully get that test whipped appreciate it fellas
Reply:Slow hand, thanks a lot, Jim
Reply:Ok circle, got some more for ya.  (if you can stand it)  Last fall at work they rented an older Vantage machine with about 2500 hours on it for me to weld pipeline with.  It was a dream come true (actually) but in reality it did have its own set of problems.  Since it was like an 07 model Vantage it didn't have the new board in it.  When you plugged in the a remote you "had it all" on the remote.  The whole 300 amps.  With a remote plugged in the big knob didn't work anymore.....For me, and considering what I was doing with it (welding 20"x.375 wall pipeline) it was fine, but if you're machine is an older model without the new Lincoln Vantage updated board, then on your 12" weld test it could be problem I think.On that old machine I found that if I turned the big knob down to 0 it acted better.  Was less harsh overall I thought.  I liked the dig on +4 I think.  And I think I remember in good space it was about 50 with a 5/32 5P+.  I actually liked that machine better than I liked my 2010 model Vantage I had on my rig for welding like that.  My new Vantage, with its new board, I couldn't make it weld like that old Vantage did even with it on 100.  For production pipeline I prefer the older machine with its old board over the newer ones with their updated board.On 12' light wall pipe I can see how having the old Vantage with its old board could be a problem.  You would be well below 50 on the remote trying to run a bead and the heat would be very sensitive.  2 at a time would be quite a bit.  I could also see it maybe breaking arc on your since the amps were set to full bore (100) with the remote plugged in.  On that small of pipe and under test conditions I can only recommend the new board I think.  The old board would be quite to handle I think.If your machine is older with the old board then you need to get the board upgrade.  If thats the case then it will help you.If you do then I'd probably set it to like 250 or so.  Whatever puts you on 50 in good space.  Thats where I'd start.  And about +4 if you've got a #2 whip cable on 2/0 leads.Best of luck man and keep at it.When you get it I know you'll like it.  Welding pipeline is all fun.  If it ain't, then you ain't drinking enough beer.   LaterP.s.  I made 15 - 20"x.375 wall xray welds (with my same old friend and welding pardner) in 7 actual working hours today using a 480 volt - 170hp 6cyl turbo charged Cummins - 159 KW 3-phase generator with 350-XMT Miller Inverters welders running 5/32 5P+ root, 70+ 3/16 out (full welds) and NOT ONCE DID I HAVE A WIDE FLAT BEAD ON THE BOTTOM.     (actually I think they were on the skinny side)  Set high in the saddle - just bearly shaving the lands off - spraying in that skinny bead with voltage - using a light hand - with a light forward rod angle - dragging that sucker down there as far as it will go.  Thats pipelining man.  Thats where its all at.  Or thats where it all goes.Good luckLast edited by slowhand; 05-06-2011 at 11:14 PM.
Reply:Ya my machine is a 07 or early 08 model and i did notice with my remote that when i adjust my dig nothing seemed to change i told a few of my buds that and never thought nothin of it so that could very well be a slight problem i got the bead lookin bettter anyway also like you said my remote i have always noticed is very sensitve it doesn't take much to to turn up the heatLast edited by circle ry; 05-07-2011 at 12:33 AM.
Reply:I heard awhile back that Lincoln was offering the board update for free on the older machines but I can't promise that was true.  Check into it, ok.   You need that board I think.Here's how to tell which you have.  Plug in the remote, turn the big knob down to "0", and the remote to 100.  If the display says 300 then you have the old board.  The new board will only allow the remote to go up to whatever you have the big knob set to.  To set it put the remote on 100 and turn the big knob until you see about 280 on the meter.  When you turn the remote down to 50 it should read about 140 (1/2 of that 280).  With the old board on 50 it will read about 150 amps (1/2 of the full 300).  On that 12" light wall pipe I'd say you need it somewhere around 250.  That'll probably put you on 50 or 55 in good space (penny space and lands).  About 130 amps.On bigger pipe you'd probably like the 280 and the 140 that 50 would give ya.  Its pretty close to start with I think.Besides in my opinion the new board welds different than the old board.  Its softer I think, or at least it felt that way on the two machines I've welded with.As for the dig control.  I've always felt it responded to me when I was crowding the rod (lowering the voltage by short arcing).  Set down low it didn't do much.  Set up high it kicks in the amps.  Set on 0 its supposed to maintain what you had.  But I think the condition of your cables has an effect on how it works.  Old mismatched cables and you won't fell much.  Long arc everything and you might not fell much.  Crowd the rod and you should notice a difference in different settings.  With my cables and how I weld I like +4 pretty well.Good luckLast edited by slowhand; 05-07-2011 at 05:53 PM.
Reply:Would do but my vantage is the one with optional meters havent got the digitals
Reply:In my book, slowhand's word is law,  would love to weld with him, and tilt back some cold ones.
Reply:Originally Posted by Josey WalesIn my book, slowhand's word is law,  would love to weld with him, and tilt back some cold ones.I have never ran a Vantage, but am looking at one as my next machine. I love my SA-250 (gas job) but she drinks alot of fuel and is a heavy beast.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Originally Posted by circle ryWould do but my vantage is the one with optional meters havent got the digitals