Pipe quality for bends

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Every winter I bend commercial table frames out of 2" sch 40 galv pipe.  About 800 bends.  I have made these tables for many years.  I use a cheap harbour frieght type bender that I modifie with an air/hydraulic pump.  It works fine for the job, usually makeing wrinkle free bends.  Last year I noticed pipe from 1 country was far inferior than another (I can't remember which country was best). This year, same thing, some of the good pipe was from Thailand. The stuff from Korea or Veitnam was kinking.  In anticipation of next winters order, have any of you noticed a country that makes pipe for a more uniform, predictable bend?  I think this years is opposite than last year, but not sure. I told my supplier to check into it, their answer was to print "bendability not gaurenteed" on my reciept. Attached Images
Reply:You may have to look into a mandril bender. Uses a support mandril inside the pipe to keep it round while it is bent. then it is pulled out. Some high end muffler shops use them.
Reply:Yeah, I realize they are better. But the fact that this is a recent quality issue with the pipe is why I ask.  I have bent them succesfully with my modified bender for many years.  I have the same issue with a hydraulic pipe "squisher" I built for the angle braces on the table frames.  The inferior pipes will split, where the better quality ons squash fine.
Reply:check out griffin supply in hammond ind they sell allied tube and conduit in the midwest. They have all sizes in stock. Its what we use in the dairy equipment business, and i believe its still american made. they have a web site
Reply:Where you located ? Try a pipe plumbing supplier and get made in USA pipe. Depending on supplier you may be able to get ''plain end'' no threads.  That's cool. Now you only have to add wood and instant table.
Reply:I am in N Ca, I didn't know you could get "made in USA" pipe any more.  Where I normally get it, it is plain end, in 21 or 24' lengths.  I'll check into if they can get American pipe.  They know I am looking for better quality steel.  I just bought sheets of 10 gauge for boat pontoons that had mill scale pits so deep, they went all the way through!
Reply:I have my wood custom milled cedar, full 3 X 12 for us big Americans.  These go in the recreation area where my shop is. Although I have built them for local churches and other agencies, they are not cheap, but you could park a backhoe on top of them. My material cost is just over $300 (not bent,cut or punched), so they aren't for your average homeowner.  If some one insists on uying one, they go between $650 and $700. Other commercial tables of that size, with 2 X 10 lumber go for more + shipping.  That usually stops homeowners from looking at them. I would pay more for American steel if it is available.  I have'nt seen any around here for quite a while.
Reply:If my steel supplier to me to right that on my receipts,  my answer would be then ill find a new supplier....Miller bobcat 225g  - spoolmatic 1Mm250 - 30a spoolMiller spectrum 375Thermal arc 95 Everlast Ex 250As the boiler turns, these are the days of our lives
Reply:American pipe is available, it will cost about 2 to 2.5 times what you are paying for the import pipe. You might try using seamless pipe, it might take the crushing a little better.
Reply:I would pay more for US pipe.  I never heard of seamless sch40 pipe, only tubing. I just know I've bent it for years with no distortion, but the last two years quality in some of the countries steel has gone way downhill. As most of  you know, the cheap benders only bend pipe, not conduit or tube.  I do have access to better benders, but I use the cheap bender on these just because it has always worked and my other tooling is freed up. I might have to upgrade the bender to compensate for the crappy steel used in the pipe.
Reply:http://www.tiogapipe.com/carbon.htmlhttp://www.wosupply.com/index.php/contact-locationsThese are both suppliers that I have used in the past for seamless pipe
Reply:Material $300.00  ????    How long are the pieces ??  Is that 1/4'' x 2'' flat stock ?
Reply:3/8"x 2 1/2" flat, I used angle in the past designs, but the layout and welding was tougher with the radius. It was slightly stronger, but had a small cut hazard, plus extrs welding time. Not quite $300.  About $115 of steel, $120 of wood (3 X 12 X 8'), and bolts and finish. The tables are bigger than any other commercial table, and I'm not trying to sell them.  I build them to keep my recreation area employees employed year round so I have experienced people in the summer.  We also make all our own BBQ's, marinas, rental 2 story patio boats, cabins etc. Welding is not my main job, although I have been doing it for 35 years. I run a large recreation area in Ca.  I know I can buy similar commercial tables for $700-$800, but this way everyone stays employed. In the summer we run over 60 employees, including some seasonal. My passion is the shop and designing the projects to keep them busy and employed in this economy. I'll post the finished table when I get time.  We also drill a hole in the center for commercial umbrellas.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartI would pay more for US pipe.  I never heard of seamless sch40 pipe, only tubing. I just know I've bent it for years with no distortion, but the last two years quality in some of the countries steel has gone way downhill. As most of  you know, the cheap benders only bend pipe, not conduit or tube.  I do have access to better benders, but I use the cheap bender on these just because it has always worked and my other tooling is freed up. I might have to upgrade the bender to compensate for the crappy steel used in the pipe.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbart3/8"x 2 1/2" flat, I used angle in the past designs, but the layout and welding was tougher with the radius. It was slightly stronger, but had a small cut hazard, plus extrs welding time. Not quite $300.  About $115 of steel, $120 of wood (3 X 12 X 8'), and bolts and finish. The tables are bigger than any other commercial table, and I'm not trying to sell them.  I build them to keep my recreation area employees employed year round so I have experienced people in the summer.  We also make all our own BBQ's, marinas, rental 2 story patio boats, cabins etc. Welding is not my main job, although I have been doing it for 35 years. I run a large recreation area in Ca.  I know I can buy similar commercial tables for $700-$800, but this way everyone stays employed. In the summer we run over 60 employees, including some seasonal. My passion is the shop and designing the projects to keep them busy and employed in this economy. I'll post the finished table when I get time.  We also drill a hole in the center for commercial umbrellas.
Reply:Originally Posted by shortfuseHats off to you, Bart for doing your best to keep your people EMPLOYED and on the payroll.  Not many can do that in a seasonal (or regular, for that matter) business.  I'm sure they all appreciate it more than you realize.
Reply:Redone:  As far as import pipe goes, you must consider the hardness and use. We had some sent out by mistake to the job. The material  was so hard we could not get a decent thread  on it.  Neighbor brought over some import pipe from big box store that was the opposite. The stuffalmost collapsed in the machine as I tried to thread it.  I guess it depends where it is from and your application. I never did a price check difference but we only use MADE IN THE USA. In our industry it is not worth taking a chance.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartI build them to keep my recreation area employees employed year round so I have experienced people in the summer.  We also make all our own BBQ's, marinas, rental 2 story patio boats, cabins etc. Welding is not my main job, although I have been doing it for 35 years. I run a large recreation area in Ca.  I know I can buy similar commercial tables for $700-$800, but this way everyone stays employed. In the summer we run over 60 employees, including some seasonal. My passion is the shop and designing the projects to keep them busy and employed in this economy. I'll post the finished table when I get time.  We also drill a hole in the center for commercial umbrellas.
Reply:As far as the cheap bender goes, I have bought several because of the weak dies, modified them to air/ hydraulic pumps.  I have made literally thousands of sucessful bends and have made many shop made adapters for it. So again I am pretty sure it's a pipe quality issue.  I do have to say the Jet and greenlee style has me thinking anyway. The reason I have so many benders is for the dies, I have broken several due to the cheap castings.  I will post soon some of the adapters I made.  One of a "pipe squasher" for welding pipe joints, one is a square tube bender, and I have also used it for channel and heavy flat.  I have to figure out how to post multiple pics on a post.   Thanks for the encouragement on employees, I think it pay's off.  Running a rec area in California becomes a zoo in the summertime, shop time is almost a vacation for us!
Reply:Other notes on the cheap bender.  It has always worked best on 2" sch 40, probably because the roller dies are machined for it.  Smaller pipe is always less accurate, 1/2" almost always has to be heated.  I get much better bends out of the smaller 12 ton than the bigger 16 ton, which will not do "1 shot 90 bend" on 2 1/2 and 3" pipe.
Reply:Here is another batch of good bends, most of this was Thailand pipe, with a couple sticks from Korea. Also finished tables. I only had 1 bad stick of pipe in that batch and it was unmarked,duller (almost hot dipped) finish, and had a heavier seam in it. Even though the Thai pipe looks good, it is no where near the consistancy I was getting even two years ago. Attached Images
Reply:The tables look great. Can you show the cross support?I know my greenlee does 2" rigid nice and clean. But I don't bend enough to notice much. What is the ASTM marking on the pipe? Normally A53 is suitable for bending. I believe the ASTM specifies a 90 degree bend test at 12x diameter mandrel diameter. What is your diameter? A53 is available in several grades a few grades are suitable for 8x diameter close coiling (CW, ERW). Is it possible your getting various grades? Pipe without markings is always suspect. Where are you placing the weld in your bend?If your within the 12x diameter bend diameter and the marked pipe is failing... the manufacturer should stand behind it.
Reply:I believe the best pipe this time was A53A.  The cheapo harbor freight benders do a 7" inside radius (8 1/4" center radius) on 2" sch 40 (2 3/8"OD) pipe. Although I have bent sch 80 easily with it as well.  I have never speced a grade except for 2" sch 40 galv plain end. I think the unmarked one may have either been some sort of conduit or fence pipe, even though it all came in the same order. My supplier knows some countries are better than others, but are in the same boat. Neither of us remembers which supplier is most consistant.   The cross braces are 1" sch 40, squashed on both ends (see my next thread on pipe squasher attachement)   With this design I can make either std 8' table or go 14' for group areas using 3 sets of legs. Attached Images
Reply:When you ask "where are you placing your weld" I assume you mean the pipe seam?  I do remember one year we decided one location for the seam was better than the other for a clean bend, but I can't remember what was best.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartWhen you ask "where are you placing your weld" I assume you mean the pipe seam?  I do remember one year we decided one location for the seam was better than the other for a clean bend, but I can't remember what was best.I used angle on a 100 or so table years ago.although it was slightly stronger, I switched because of my design. The inside rarius made it tough to weld without beveling pipe, and it was a slight hazard for customers thighs, although I had no complaints. The 3/8" is overkill, but the American public can be ruthless on campsites, these get carved up with graffiti withen the first week.  And that is with half a dozen security employees.  I've even seen campers drive up on my BBQ's to fix their cars. There are several MFG's of similar commercial tables, using 2x10 tops and seats.  Mine are 3 x12 and a little taller to get in and out, I have made some out of 4 x 12 also. The extra weight keeps them from tipping when one side is fully loaded. It also keeps them from being stolen easily. I drill a 1 3/8" hole in the center for umbrellas.
Reply:@ REDONE, I actually polished my dies on the cheapo bender when I first bought it back in the 90's.I think it helped. I have bent miles of pipe, and know it won't bend tubing, in fact I have bought several at garage sales from ignorant people that tried to bend muffler pipe. Here is another couple pics of bent pipe projects done with the harbor freight design. I am convinced it is a material problem, thanks for the tips on Mexian pipe and from the other tip on ASME markings from the other member.   This is one of five comercial playground and swing set structures i have built with it. Thanks for all the tips everyone, I might be looking for a greenlee or Jet bender to compensate for the cheaper pipe. I will have to adjust all my bend notes if I do that though. Attached Images
Reply:I went back to the supplier today and showed him the good and bad bends. We went out to the shop and started inspecting pipe with together.  Apparrently they have been ordering a lot of Sch 40 Galv plain end pipe that is not A53A for solar panel supports.  Solar panel installers in Ca don't care about the A53 pressure test.  I also noticed it is a little bigger diameter ( should be 2.375, the non spec pipe is 2.415) so it is much tighter in the die and has a much bigger interior seam. I also noticed the shiney sch 40 bends better than the rough, dull stuff. Maybe it is electro galv instead of hot dipped. The best luck I had was with Thailand pipe.   I can order American pipe, about .10 cents a lb more ($8 a stick).  It might be worth it, I thought it would be more.
Reply:That's really interesting. A36 (I believe, but could be mistaken) is what gives me the best bends, but it's also what I get cheap from my local supplier and also what I've ground my dies too. I may be misunderstanding your terms for the texture of the pipe, especially since it's been galvanized, but the rough texture I'm used to seeing is from hot rolling the metal into a tube shape, while the smooth texture is more common to the cold rolling process. My phone camera sucks but I've got some black pipe in the shop to show the differences. I'll try to get some pics that don't completely suck and if so, post 'em up. Since it's not galvanized it may be completely arbitrary though.
Reply:I'm talking about the galvinized finish, which I would think is done after the pipe is Mfg. It looks like the Thai pipe is electro galv, while others are hot dippid leaving a duller, silver.  Is A36 a Sch 40 grade? Most of the stuff I was having problems with had no markings at all, country or type.
Reply:Also remeber I'm talking only about pipe,not tube, which is the only thing the cheap HF benders are barely acceptable at bending. I have better benders in my shop, but the tables have all been jigged for the cheaper HF design.  I might have to go to the better benders if the inferior pipe continues. (this is the second year i received a lousy load) I have not had any problems in the prior years, I think quality standards are going down.  Plumbers tell me they notice the same thing when threading diferent brands of pipe, some is hard, some soft, and some just crumbles.  Now I sound like Goldylocks.
Reply:Well, now you got me thinking. A36 is structural steel, and when I started buying pipe from my local supplier I just told the guy in a hardhat I needed these various sizes of schedule 40 in structural steel. I could've sworn it's been marked A36 over the years, but all I've got right now is marked 1014 (mild carbon steel), and one short stick of 1.25" schd 40 galvi with no markings left on it.
Reply:PST may be the way to go.  I don't know if you can get it in galv or not.My name's not Jim....
Reply:I would assume sch 40 is made from A36, but not sure.  Boostinjdm, is PST a supplier on the west coast?
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartI would assume sch 40 is made from A36, but not sure.  Boostinjdm, is PST a supplier on the west coast?
Reply:That's a new one for me! I doubt it would normally be available in galv however. Good to know.
Reply:There are many times I don't want the Galv, like the playground pictured.  PST might be ideal, cleanin off black iron pipe is a pain.  The table frames are better in galv for their abuse.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartThat's a new one for me! I doubt it would normally be available in galv however. Good to know.
Reply:did you bend the first piece marked A53 on a bender?  I would think it would have done fine, especially being black iron which has always seemed softer to me than galv.  I agree with the bologna concept, I just think they are throwing a lot more beaks and feet into the mix then they used to.
Reply:I never have heard of pipe size tube, but google tells me that it is ASTM A500.  Sounds like a higher quality product with tighter tolerances than A53.  It's no good for pressure applications but sounds like it's worth looking into.Rene