Weldanpower 225 woes

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Got a weldanpower 225 awhile back and had to repair the oil/sump pan, which was cracked. I got the machine back together and have a problem or two:1. The small wire that bolts to the engine on the back of the machine is causing some trouble. I believe this to be the kill wire. When it is unhooked, the machine seems to run fine..2. The machine will not generate or weld at this time. I suspect these problems are related, but I am not for sure. I need to find a repair manual of some kind. I took the start/kill switch off and unhooked what would be the top right wire, looking from the back. The machine runs and seems to be idling right when I do this, whether or not the wire on the back is attached. I do not have any way of knowing what wires are what, or what they should be carrying. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Reply:I am new here and new to my Weldanpower 225 ...but I suspect those are two different problems...the kill wire is just to turn off the engine..you have another problem if , when running, it will not produce electricity..if you search on this site I think someone has posted an electrical schematic for this machine... But a quick trip to your local Lincoln dealer might solve the problem fast and cheap..or perhaps you can email pics of the inside of your machine to them...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:have you checked lincoln electrics site for maunal www.lincolnelectric.com  search the service navagatoruse your code model numberidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tigidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tig #2 used for sticklincoln sp100hh125dual arbor grinder polisher30 yrs of hand tools52 pitch blocks 6p-26prake gauge -pitch gaugeG&D prop repair 918-207-6938Hulbert,okla 74441
Reply:wheres DUANE....he should be called Mr,Lincoln..LOL.. he will appear soon and answer all your questions...
Reply:in the meantime if you goto the lincoln websight you can down load all the manuals you need, sorry I dont have the link at my fingertips
Reply:Here's the link http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us...r-manuals.aspx bobb was talking about and we'll need to know the unit code # and engine make in order to know which 225 you're dealing with.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:i will get the code asap. It is the Briggs 16 HP version.
Reply:The code is 9444Model WP225G7So i got it to generate for a bit tonight. It is acting very funky, which is why I am struggling to nail down the problem. Wire #203 that attaches to ground on the engine at the back is the one that I was having to disconnect to get a spark. When I did that, It would run, but I had no output.Today I had everything hooked up, and it started, ran, and generated fine. I shut it off to get a volt meter and came back. It started right up and ran fine, but is not making power now. I did have the engine off, but got it all back together right, or at least how it was before. It seems maybe I have 2 problems here. The larger concern for me is the generating/welding part. Where should I start testing to see what the problem possibly is? It seems it may be fairly simple, but I am not sure where to check first. I have the wiring diagram and manual from Lincoln, but simply do not know where to start!
Reply:Wire 203 is the start /run / stop wire for the engine. Open engine runs. Connected to ground engine stops. Wire 203 connects to wire 5 in the start/ run / stop switch in the stop position.Wire 203 also connects to wire 220 through the switch. 220 goes to the oil pressure switch.Must have oil pressure for engine to stay running. This switch also supplies 12vdc to the pc board. No 12vdc to pcb no output. The switch is 3 , 3 position switches ganged together.Check the run and oil pressure switches out, one or both may be bad. I hope you have enough oil in the engine so there is oil pressure.
Reply:Yes the engine is correct on oil. The run switch is the start/run/stop switch I assume? And for the oil switch, will it simply ground out if it is bad? If that is the case, I would think it wouldn't run at all. Thanks a lot ccawgc for the help!
Reply:Yes, the RUN switch is the RUN/START/STOP switch and I would check it for possibly being bad as well as ccawgc suggested.If the OPS is bad (not opening with oil pressure) you would need to disconnect it not ground it.  With no oil pressure the switch closes to connect to ground and shorts the engine ignition thru the RUN/START/STOP switch.Also check the plug at PC1 for corroded terminals and pins which could be the cause of the intermittent weld/generator output.Last edited by duaneb55; 02-15-2011 at 09:23 PM.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Had a chance to do some more checking on the welder. so far I've found:Wire 212A goes to the idler/high idle switchWire 212 goes to the boardwire 209A has 12V (not sure from where yet)Wire 211 goes to the boardwire 211A goes back to the starter solenoidwire 5G goes to ground??wire 203 goes to ground at the back of the machinewire 203A jumps from a post on the switch to 203.I also tested the switch and can post a scan up of what I sketched out. I tested the switch for continuity between all 7 of the spades in all switch positions and cannot seem to understand what circuit it closes when you switch it to STOP. Based on my testing of the switch I found that when the switch was in the RUN position:-212 and 209A are closed together-203A and 220 are closed togetherIn STOP position:-5G and 203 are closed together( this is what I don't quite understand)In START position:212 and 209 are closed together.By closed together I mean had continuity.I blew the diagram up and will check to verify they are at least all right, or as they are on the schematic. Any advice on checking the RUN switch? The oil pressure sensor switch is working.thanks!
Reply:209 gets 12vdc(+) thru the ammeter from the battery side of the starter solenoid.In STOP position, 5G connects to 203 to ground (short) the engine ignition mag to stop the engine.You should also find that 211/211A and 5G connect in START position.  If so, the STOP/RUN/START switch checks out.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:All # 5 wires are connected together. They are your battery minus and ground system.The different letters show they are different wire segments.On engines with magnetic ignition systems. A magnet passes a coil causing a pulse of electricity and making the spark. as long as the magnet keeps going by the coil it keeps working. Engine runs until it runs out of gas. To stop the engine when we want to. we take a coil wire and short it to ground and this kills the spark and stops the engine.This explains the closed switch in the stop position.The coil on your car is a step up transformer that needs 12vdc turned on and off to make spark.One more thought. Make sure you do not have to much oil in the engine. This also causes problems.
Reply:So bmyers, is this thing generating/welding again?  I trust the engine starting/running/stopping issues are behind you.  ??MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Hey Duane! Sorry for the delay I have been out of town and extremely busy. Had to get a few parts, and went ahead and put a carb kit on while I was at it. Got all the connections cleaned and everything put back together and it seems to be running great, but no power still.Not sure where to go next on this. The start/stop switch checked out OK, but still no power, which would indicate that is/was not the problem. Another small issue is I can not get it to idle down low enough. The mag is working, but it seems like it just won't pull back quite far enough. The idle screw is not the problem, as I backed it out plenty far. I have not messed with the spring system underneath, but I am afraid it may need adjustment- unless it is possible that the mag can get weak on these? Thanks for all the help!!!
Reply:Ok I looked at the troubleshooting guide from lincoln and discovered a few things:1. The slip rings measured 4.4 Ohms all the way around- good according to the manual.2. Rheostat checked out ok. (1-10 Ohms)3. I disconnected lead #4 and D2 (diode) and lead #5B. Tested continuity between the 2- came out ok. The auto idle is in fact working, so I do not believe it is the board. No loose wires or connections that I can see anywhere. Other things on the troubleshooting list include lead #5 from the "field rectifier". I am not sure where this is and cannot find it on the diagram. I found the field capacitor on the diagram. Any other ideas on why this thing wouldnt be welding/generating?
Reply:Continuity between leads #4 and #5B confirms the field exciter output stator windings are OK.  I don't have the specific voltage figure for this unit but when the generator is producing output, AC voltage on leads #4 and #5B is probably something in the neighborhood of 40-60 volts.The "field rectifier" is that diode D2 that leads #4 and #5B attach to and is actually a full wave bridge rectifier that rectifies AC voltage to DC for the field exciter circuit to use after initial field flashing (excitation) from battery voltage.The fact the AUTO IDLE is working only shows that portion of control board PCB1 is functioning.  PCB1 performs several duties including initial field flashing to get things started which may be the root problem.  An open flashing diode on PCB1 could be the cause and you can by-pass the board to test for generator/weld output by manually flashing the field at the brushes.To do so, simply momentarily (a couple seconds) apply 12VDC to the rotor brushes circuits.  There are several places you can do this to make it as easy as possible and you must apply the (+) and (-) to the correct wires such as:12VDC(+)1) wire #218 at the positive brush holder2) wire #218 at the Fine Current Control rheostat3) wire #200 at field rectifier D24) wire #200 at the Fine Current Control rheostat5) wire #200A at the field capacitor(For 3-5, Fine Current control should be set to Maximum)12VDC(-)1) wire #201 at the negative (-) brush holder2) wire #201/201A at field rectifier D23) wire #201B at the field capacitor4) any wire #5(x)5) main chassis ground stud(With the battery connected, properly grounded and charged, you should only need to connect 12VDC(+) to one of the points listed for it).Pick any combination that makes it the easiest and make the connection for only a couple seconds.  You should experience a significant arc when you remove the wire used for flashing so make sure you don't damage any stud threads or braided brush leads in the process.If I'm not mistaken, if the flashing circuit on PCB1 is good, you should see 12VDC(+) battery voltage on wire #219.  unfortunately, I don't have a board circuit diagram to be able to offer much board troubleshooting.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:I will give this a try today. Thanks Duane!
Reply:Ok, I flashed the field using a 12V battery and fired the machine up. It is generating and welding now. I used the actual brush studs to flash the circuit with a set of wires I made. I did not experience a huge arc when I did it, but I do not know how big it should've been. I tested the voltage at D2 between #4 and #5B. It was around 20-30 VAC. Anyway, it seems to be running and generating fine. So, the question I would ask is- how long will it go working before the field needs "excited" again? If this happens again and I flash it and it works again, that tells me I basically need a new board correct? Thanks a lot!
Reply:Originally Posted by bmyersIf this happens again and I flash it and it works again, that tells me I basically need a new board correct?
Reply:I certainly will keep everyone updated on how it is working. I had all 4 110V outlets running something ( drills, hand grinders, etc, while welding with some 1/8" rods. I burned a few of them up and it did not seem to have any problem at all. Havent tested the 220 outlet yet, as most of my stuff has a different plug than what the welder has on it. Thanks again for the help. I have learned a lot, not to mention saved some hard-earned $.
Reply:Went out today to get the cover cleaned up and put it back on and, well, it's doing it again. Last time I ended up re-charging or flashing the field and it woke up. I has only been around a week that it has sat. Nothing at all. No power, no weld, running good. Seems like the idler board may be giving fits, since I flipped it over to high idle and nothing changed. Any ideas?
Reply:If it is the idler board, does anyone have a good idea what one costs? I am guessing I would have to order from lincoln.
Reply:I have read that there is a capacitor that flashes the slip rings. If this is bad, there will be no output? If this is possible, where would this capacitor be found and how could I test it? Is this something that would be built into the board? Also, if this is the case, would it make sense that it ran after manually flashing it? If so, could I confirm it by maually flashing it again and seeing if it worked? Sorry for so many questions! This thing is frustrating me because I thought I had it going. ThanksbenRe-flashed it again with a battery and away it went. Hmmm? I have pulled the capacitor, but do not have the right tester to test it. My multimeter will not test above 40 micro ferrads. This one is an 800.
Reply:Originally Posted by bmyersI have read that there is a capacitor that flashes the slip rings. If this is bad, there will be no output? If this is possible, where would this capacitor be found and how could I test it? Is this something that would be built into the board? Also, if this is the case, would it make sense that it ran after manually flashing it? If so, could I confirm it by maually flashing it again and seeing if it worked? Sorry for so many questions! This thing is frustrating me because I thought I had it going. Thanksben
Reply:Thanks Duane! I will check tomorrow on the voltages. Thanks for the help with the capacitor. I believe it is probably ok, as I was able to test that it is/was not shorted out. If PCB1 is in fact not putting out any voltage at #219, does that for sure indicate a bad board? Is it possible that R3 is bad and that could be causing problems with flashing the circuit?
Reply:Originally Posted by bmyersIf PCB1 is in fact not putting out any voltage at #219, does that for sure indicate a bad board?
Reply:Ok, with the unit running but obviously not generating, there is nothing at all at 219.212 has 12 VDC with the switch in run position, and when the machine is running. When I flashed the circuit, the machine would run and generate, and I had around 17 VDC at wire 219 at idle. When the machine kicked up to run something, 219 went to around 20 VDC. After R3 it drops down closer to 12 VDC.Shut the machine off, checked a few things, and restarted, nothing again anywhere but 12 VDC at 212. One other wire that goes to the ammeter (208 I believe does have 12V). I did not check 211, but I believe it may have 12 VDC as well if i remember right. Nonetheless, wire 212 has battery voltage, which would indicate the board is gettingits power.So basically it runs when it wants to, but then just quits generating power. Seems like the board may be bad, but the fact that it puts out voltage to flash the circuit when it is working has me baffled.I also checked R3 for resistance and got 10.3 ohms. R2 checked at around 3.3 ohms, and R4 was around 3.8 ohms. R4 seems a little high but does not seem like just that would cause all this trouble. Would a bad circuit or component in the board cause it to act this way?
Reply:Sorry to be so long getting back to you.Your results indicate a bad flashing circuit on PCB1 which may be an open flashing diode (D8) or defective p-channel MOSFET - electronic switch - (Q1) on the board.Diode D8 is easy to check by doing the following:1) Remove control harness connector J1 from PCB12) With VOM set to "Diode" mode, probe PCB1 pin #2 with black (-) lead and #7 with red (+) lead.  Reading should be between .200 & .900 if diode D8 is good.3) Switch VOM test leads and reading should be .OL if D8 is good.If step 2) or 3) fail, diode D8 is bad. To check for output from MOSFET Q1:1) Plug connector J1 back in to PCB1.2) Select RUN position on RUN/START/STOP switch.3) Confirm 12vdc(+) at connector J1 pin #1 (again).4) Check for 12vdc(+) at connector J1 cavity #6 (no wire).  12vdc(+) here indicates input voltage to Q1.5) Check for 12vdc(+) at connector J1 cavity #7 (no wire).  12vdc(+) here confirms output from Q1.No 12vdc(+) in step 5) indicates a failed Q1 or it's non-functioning due to a failure in Q1 gate control circuit.Any failed component can be easily replaced if you're comfortable doing that kind of work or there are a number of places that do repairs.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Ok thanks Duane. Have been in the Seattle area all week for work but will try these hi gs when I return.
Reply:Forgot to include the board schematic and component layout drawings compliments of Lincoln engine drive troubleshooting tech Mr. Wagner.  I had the schematic and the appropriate component layout drawing will confirm component location for you should you elect to repair it yourself or ???.The schematic drawing lines are a bit hard to follow in a few spots so if you have any questions just ask.M15506.pdfL7607-2.pdfL7607-3.pdfMM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Yes I will be repairig it myself upon confirming what the problem is. I have the tools necessary and access to some good help if I need it. One question for you is how to remove the epoxy coating?
Reply:Originally Posted by bmyersOne question for you is how to remove the epoxy coating?
Reply:bmyers;I bought a rebuilt P.C. idler for my Weldanpower at Stumpfs in Il. , they are online. It went for about 150 exchange, and it's been working good for 6 months now. They, also are good at helping a man out. My 2 cents after reading all the posts is check the output connectors where the ground and stinger go. A tear here can for sure cause them intermittant problems. Mine got twist connectors, they needed to be cleaned to make "good" contact. With it not idling down, a low battery can cause this from what I have heard. make "sure" you got a full charge. Don't give up, she is a mighty fine machine, worth the work. Hope this helps.
Reply:Hey Horvik, thanks for the help. Does that place have a website? I am going to try to rebuild the one I have, but if I can't, I would certainly be interested in talking to these guys.
Reply:Theres a Idler Board on eBay right now for 125.00. L6325http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:ITI was watching it in-case mine didnt work, but Im all-set...Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:Yes I have been watching it. It is different than mine- probably for an older code, though I think it would work. I would have to remove the multi-pin connector and put spade connectors on each wire. I will attempt to fix mine before going to all that trouble. Thanks!
Reply:Just re-read for your code number, looks like yours is 2-3 years newer than mine, and likely has different guts... I triedLincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:Ok, had a chance to test it this evening. D8 is good. tested 0.547. Q1 is where I believe the problem lies. Had 12VDC at pin #1, and 12VDC at pin 6, but no output at pin 7. How can I further test Q1 to guarantee it is the problem? Is there a way I can test the component itself while it remains in the board?
Reply:Hey dere;If you are still looking for a rebuilt Idler PC control board, i got mine through stumpfs welding , in downstate Il. Nice folks to trade with. On my Weldanpower I had the electrode side on the PC board down, the AC side worked. Hope this helps  Originally Posted by bmyersOk, had a chance to test it this evening. D8 is good. tested 0.547. Q1 is where I believe the problem lies. Had 12VDC at pin #1, and 12VDC at pin 6, but no output at pin 7. How can I further test Q1 to guarantee it is the problem? Is there a way I can test the component itself while it remains in the board?
Reply:testing on pcb is a yes and no. sometimes. A short is always a short. But do to parallel circuits, ohm readings can be off.  A mosfet is metal oxide silicone field effect transistor.The gate lead is not connected directly the transistor channel. So a resistance check would have a very high to open reading. The best way to test them is with a tester that uses battery voltage a resister and light and a switch to gate it on. Just look to see if there is agte voltage to it and the power it is controlling is there. If it doesn't turn on it is bad. For 5 to $10 just change it. If you remember what a vacuum tube was, the FET is functionally very close.
Reply:bmyers488777;How ya doin?http://www.stumpfweldingsupplies.com/Good folks, nah, I get no commision.  Originally Posted by bmyersHey Horvik, thanks for the help. Does that place have a website? I am going to try to rebuild the one I have, but if I can't, I would certainly be interested in talking to these guys.
Reply:Thanks! I have the mofset on order. $1.50 for the darn thing. went ahead and got a few just in case. I will post updates when i get it in and get it all back together.Ben
Reply:Installed the Mosfet on the board and did some testing. I am really confused now. After testing the diode and replacing the mosfet, there is still no voltage at pin #7. Oddly enough, when I first fired the machine up it worked perfect. When I shut it down and started it again, it had nothing. no power output, would not idle, etc. There must be something else going on here? Duane!????? I need more help!!
Reply:anyone out there? I am lost for real now. It makes me think it may not be the board that is giving me problems, but the test still stands- no voltage at pin #7. This would indicate a bad mosfet? Or could there be something else on the board? Diode D8 tested good.
Reply:I am out here... but remember that old saying about ' the blind leading the blind' ?   I am rooting for you getting it working ...and I am watching carefully in case mine starts to have problems...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Hey ben, why don't ya just send that thing on down to me, seems like it's causing ya too many headaches. I'll just go ahead and remove that stress from your life for ya
Reply:Im getting close but not there yet- I don't have much in it at the moment, though I couldve taken a night job at McDonalds and bought a nice Ranger by now with the time I have in it . But hey, I have learned a lot, which is worth it to me.