Makeshift anvil- ideal approach?

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Hey Guys and Gals, I have been using a 190lb solid block of mild steel for my anvil. Recently I picked up my first welder from another member here, and have zero experience welding. But I'm thinking this particular project would be good with stick welding. After some practicing of course. The welder is a Longevity TigWeld 250This is currently what I use as my anvil.As you can see, I pieced together a few pieces of wood, as a make-shift hardy hole for some specialty tools. No surprise that it doesn't hold up very well right?My goal, is to build a new stand- and weld on a 1'' thick piece of steel with a square and pritchel hole in it for the hardy.I was thinking it wouldn't be super difficult to weld it right on to the anvil.  My question is, what would be an ideal way to weld together the parts via stick? I have 3/32'' 6011 and 1/8'' 7018.Is it best to do a root pass with 6011, and cover with 7018?Here is a poor sketch, interpreting what my plan is. The blue coloring are places I intend to weld.Any advice would be very much appreciated, thanks everyone.
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Reply:You have a beautiful piece of steel for an anvil.If you want to weld on a plate, what you propose would work just fine. I plan to make a plate for doing hardy work and so I can forge hardy tools and not beat on the fairly light heel of my smaller anvil. I have some 4"x4" 3/8" wall square tube 3-4" tall on a 6x6 3/8" steel plate that I picked up as scrap. I plan to burn out a hole in the center of the base plate, so I can knock out things from the back if they get stuck and weld at least some 1" plate with a 1" or 1 1/4" square holes( size of my hardy holes) on the top. Then I'll just attach that to a wood stump all it's own. That way I can beat the snot out of pieces I want to upset to make hardy tooling, or have a separate tool in the hardy, say my hot cut, and not have to worry about taking it in and out of the hardy on the anvil to work..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I'm not sure what kill dozer said, but I'll share a little of my logic. First I'm not sure what you plan to use the anvil for, so take the next few thoughts with an open mind as this is quite open ended. Mild steel is not the best material for an anvil because it's soft. Most anvils are cast/forged(better) from a harder alloy. Sometimes even tool steel. The distinctive ring of the anvil is evidence of this. Anyway you can build up a hardened layer of material on the surface of the anvil. A few layers built up of 7018 followed by several layers of hard facing. You're going to want part A welded close to "full pen" if you're going to be beating on it. This will keep stress cracks from showing up at the seam. I would definitely choose 7018  over 6011 as the filler metal has better ductility qualities that 6011. If you plan on welding it, you'll probably want to pre-heat it to avoid cold welds. Also it may be easier to lift if you built a square bar to insert in the hardy hole with a pin on the bottom side. That way you don't have a knee cap killer on the side face of the anvil. Just a few thoughts I had. If you primarily do small work and rarely get into full blacksmith mode, you may never need to hard face it.Teach Ag Mech - Mike At Home:Lincoln Electric AC225Miller Challenger 172Gas AxeWork:eclectic bunch of 90's vintage blue boxes
Reply:The average hobbyist probably will never use an anvil enough to justify hard facing mild steel. The exception might be if they do a lot of forging on some of the harder tool steels.A block of steel like this is way better than most railroad track "anvils" He's got a lot of mass under the hammer and a decent sized face to work on. I just dug out some big pieces of 2 1/2" x 4" solid steel out of the heavy steel pile at the shop I'd forgotten I had grabbed years ago. I was thinking I might cut a few chunks off as small anvils if I end up doing some stuff with the scouts..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I'm with dsw. That block of steel is a nice anvil surface! And a hardy hole is a wonderful thing to have. I'd say that your design  is probably more than sturdy enough for doing most anything you would normally encounter when smithing! I would suggest picking up a few pounds of 5/32 7018 and run your machine about wide open. And deffinately do some practicing before you attempt that 1" steel. If you can't get 5/32 rods the 1/8 7018 will do the job, just takes a little longer. A little pre heat will help as well.Good luck. You'll have a nice anvil when your done!Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:I would notch the 1" add-on plate for the hardy.  No need to have a square hole in the middle of it unless the bottom of the hardy is rough and will scar the surface of the bigger block.I have seen a lot of knife forging work done using a sledgehammer head in a log as an anvil."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:You'd have better luck with buying an anvil.
Reply:I wonder if you could braze a piece of S7 tool steel to the top of it for impact resistance.
Reply:Wouldn't that be to hard and brittle being air hardening?
Reply:S7 wouldn't probably be my choice for a working surface, but I make my hot punches and chisels from it. Those get struck by the hammer without major issues. You really don't need a super hard surface for an anvil face. In fact most guys who do critical work don't want a novice to use their "good" anvil, where a misstrike can leave a mark on the face from the hammer. The hammer is usually harder than the anvil face. 4140 is often used for hammers..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWYou have a beautiful piece of steel for an anvil.If you want to weld on a plate, what you propose would work just fine. I plan to make a plate for doing hardy work and so I can forge hardy tools and not beat on the fairly light heel of my smaller anvil. I have some 4"x4" 3/8" wall square tube 3-4" tall on a 6x6 3/8" steel plate that I picked up as scrap. I plan to burn out a hole in the center of the base plate, so I can knock out things from the back if they get stuck and weld at least some 1" plate with a 1" or 1 1/4" square holes( size of my hardy holes) on the top. Then I'll just attach that to a wood stump all it's own. That way I can beat the snot out of pieces I want to upset to make hardy tooling, or have a separate tool in the hardy, say my hot cut, and not have to worry about taking it in and out of the hardy on the anvil to work.
Reply:Yes what I'm describing is very much like what Mark Aspery talks about. How he uses his is exactly like I plan to use mine part of the time.7018 vs 6010/11. 7018 doesn't do well with open roots on occasion and it's possible to end up with porosity on the back face. 6010/11 is often used to close up the root 1st, so you don't have that issue with 7018. If you are only doing fillet welds, or only grind a partial bevel with the pieces tight butted, you will not have that issue with 7018, and there is no reason to run a 601/11 root. In many cases even with open roots, they don't bother with 6010/11. They just run the root pass and start welding all with 7018. Then they come back at the end, grind or gouge out the root pass to remove any possible porosity, and weld it back up with 7018. In effect the root pass is "disposable", it's only purpose is to close up the open root, and they will take it out later.In your application any of the above will work. I was tempted to suggest doing a full penetration weld, but I was afraid that all that heat might cause the pieces to warp in relation to each other. Having a flat surface ( or close to it) is probably of more importance in this application than a 100% penetration weld, especially with the gussets underneath to add support. You could of course have the top milled when done, but that adds extra work/cost, would possibly thins the 1" plate if it stuck up versus down, and really wouldn't gain you all that much over simply keeping it fairly flat to begin with..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Very good points DSW. I learn something new everyday.
Reply:Mudman,Your point about forging hot steel, which is "softer", on a cold mild steel surface is the key.  Go ahead and use your massive steel anvil as is and don't worry so much about hardfacing, etc.  It should work just fine for the light forging you are doing.  DSW made some fine points on the anvil that should work for you.  If for some reason, the surface gets pretty badly beat up, the mild steel can be easily resurfaced with a little grinding...something you don't usually want to do with a conventional anvil.Forge away on it an have fun!!  You'll really enjoy a hardy hole addition.
Reply:I've also been giving a lot of thought to what I want my anvil to be. It seems to me that the traditional shape of an anvil has been influenced heavily by the jobs they were intended to do... things like shoeing horses... that may be very different from what I want to do. As much as I envy the guys with a mint $3k anvil, do I want a family heirloom or something I can beat the snot out of when I fixing things? For me it's typically the later so I'm beginning to think my anvils should be disposable rather than expensive. I also have a couple ideas for railroad anvils that will end up being very much untraditional in shape to do the job I want them to do rather than being cute ASO's. I also have a broken tractor spindle (pictured) that has been living under my work bench for about 4 yrs than has been pressed into service more than once, and may actually get shaped into a proper round "anvil" that I can hold in the vice. I'm sure the purists and traditionalists are going to take exception to my comments, and I am also new at this so take my rants with a grain of salt. I'm just saying that the if the job description is changing, the shape of the anvil may need to change as well. If you are using your anvil to do traditional work, this obviously doesn't apply to you.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:There are all sorts of "anvil" shapes out there besides the typical London pattern anvil most would think of. Revolutionary war anvils either don't have a horn, or the horn is very blunt and rudimentary. European anvils are often double horned, one side being round like most are familiar with, the second side being triangular. There's Sawyers anvils that would look almost exactly like the OP's block only larger. Just a big dead flat block they used to use to bang out saw blades. Bridge anvils that are "hollow" in the middle, just like  a bridge. Chain makers anvils, church window anvils, anvils with steps or upsetting blocks... Then there are dedicated "stakes" or "bicks" These are often just a T shaped piece of metal that you insert in a stake plate or pound down into a stump. The top might be similar to a long double horn anvil, or it might have a different shape.I've looked at a number of stakes and bicks that people have had for sale, but so far the prices haven't been what I wanted to spend. The kid who helped me at the Grange this year picked up a super nice double horned bick 2 years ago there for $25 from one of the antique dealers, a real steal.I could easily see turning that shaft into a really nice bick by forging down the shaft some and doing a bit of grinding, then welding on an upright..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I think Thor here is using an old breaker point from a big hydraulic hammer as a horn and has a heavy chunk of steel he's using as an anvil.Edit: I found Thors' posts starting at post 34 http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread...question/page2.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:LOL...now you're just tempting me into more projects you know I don't have time for! I just find that a lot of what I am working on now often needs a rounded shape rather than a flat one... although I can see some unique Hardy tools filling that position.  The spindle could end up being more of a large round ball on the top of the shaft. I also plan to get into more work on old cars which means I'm often beating on cold sheet metal rather than heated thicker steel... one more reason not to be ruining a good purchased anvil. That being said, there is also a need to form brackets, frame rails etc. which could use a forge, anvil, big hydraulic presses etc. I've been infected with a vicious infliction...250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Welcome to the Dark Side....My box up at the shop is filled with all sorts of home made jigs, hardy tools etc as well as "repurposed" items. Even then I'm light on that sort of stuff compared to many I know. I'm still looking for a decent ball stake and one of these days I'll get around to making a stake to hold the old 2" hitch ball instead of tossing it in the vise.Sheet metal fab is a whole nother world. One of these days I'd love to take a basic class using a shot bag, english wheel, planishing hammer, or even simple hammer and dolly work to learn some of the basics. I've done a tiny bit of hammer and dolly work years ago when trying to work on a car, but I'd really love to go learn the basics from someone who is really skilled at it. I have enough trouble doing hot work on existing forms like a shovel ( I'll do a thread on that next time I do one). I watched a PBS show years ago on a car company that had hired a bunch of old time body guys. These guys using hammer and dolly, english wheel and so on were doing almost flawless body work. No bondo at all and very little body lead, but the lines were almost dead perfect and you could see reflections in the paint with almost no distortions. True masters at what they did..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Yea... watched one show where they scratch built a one of a kind Bugatti out of magnesium. Aside from being hard to work with it was also explosive. Don't try that in your forge!250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:I think people really have gotten used to strictly referring to the english pattern as the only "real" anvil. Anvils have come a long way. A bullhorn anvil will be the next tool to either make or acquire, once I get a scythe to restore.
Reply:Originally Posted by MudmanA bullhorn anvil will be the next tool to either make or acquire, once I get a scythe to restore.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThat's one I'm unaware of ( or simply know it by another name). Do you have a picture or link to one?I recently watched an old Swedish video on Youtube showing them forge a scythe. Most of the work was done under a helve hammer under power, though they did fuller the blade after they drew it down. I'm wondering if that is what you are talking about.Check out the anvil in this video.
Reply:Ah yes I'm familiar with those stakes. I've looked at two or three but the prices just weren't what I was willing to pay for an item I just don't have an immediate need for..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I don't have an immediate use for one either, nor the scythe. Scythes have long had an appeal to me though. Unsure why- maybe due to unusual design.
Reply:Originally Posted by MudmanCheck out the anvil in this video.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThey are doing an iron bloomery. They have smelted down iron ore ( bloom) and are refining it into wrought iron similar to what say Vikings would have done using similar methods. Stones were used as anvils originally and some reenactors  will still do it this way to be "authentic" to that time period.
Reply:I desperately want an ACME brand anvil. I want to get one of those little stuffed Willey Coyote's and place it under the anvil... Sears sold anvils under the brand name Acme....No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI desperately want an ACME brand anvil. I want to get one of those little stuffed Willey Coyote's and place it under the anvil... Sears sold anvils under the brand name Acme...
Reply:I'd be more than happy to have that for an anvil. I've got a broken chunk of rock anvil that I use when I get the chance to forge. which was a step up from the rail track I had before. in all I've spent about $75 total on my entire forging tool collection and that includes the anvils, forge, and coal.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:I'm with you on that one ^^  black smithing is about the pureness of self sufficiency,! It only makes sense to me that a new or veteran smith should repurpose, make or modify his own tools instead of paying someone else to do it providing you have the capability to do it! There is quite a bit to learn before you ever need more than a few hammers, chisels, a heat source and something hard to beat on, by the time you get around to needing specialty tools you will probably have the skill set to forge your own. Just my opinion! I love making my own specialty stuff!Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Building your own stuff is also a good way to gain that skill set. Sort of like welding up your welding cart or welding table. Part of the process of passing your ABANA Journeyman's grill is being able to make all the specialized tools needed to complete the project.Few people today understand that the smith was an important part of a community. They just think they shod horses...Just about everything you can think of revolved in some way around what the smith made. The wood worker/ carpenter needed chisels, axes, drills etc not to mention hinges, latches, nails, bolts... The farmer, plows, shoes for the horse/ox, wagon hardware shovels or hoes... The sailor anchors, chain, bolts and brackets, assorted hardware. The cobbler his knives to cut leather, needles...  Even the whore probably needed something the smith made.  And it wasn't just blacksmiths, there were silver smiths, tin smiths, copper smiths, they'd make the kettles, spoons, forks pots plates etc....No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I tried to search the blowhorn anvil on Google as well and didn't find much that made sense, although the term seems to be related to a set of anvil tools or sheetmetal forming stakes. I did find a beakhorn stake anvil that looks like a smaller version of the horn, and probably was built to fit into the Hardy hole. I'm guessing that's the one DSW is referring to that sells for $40 very rough to almost $400 for decent ones.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Originally Posted by whtbaronI tried to search the blowhorn anvil on Google as well and didn't find much that made sense, although the term seems to be related to a set of anvil tools or sheetmetal forming stakes. I did find a beakhorn stake anvil that looks like a smaller version of the horn, and probably was built to fit into the Hardy hole. I'm guessing that's the one DSW is referring to that sells for $40 very rough to almost $400 for decent ones.
Reply:Start saving your pennies.... the "buy it now" price is $600 for this set.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Piece-Tinn...item43cfd16a41250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:A lot of Fleabay stuff is WAY over priced. It's a nice set, but not worth that kind of money.I'd bet you can score a stake like you want under $75 if you are patient, under $50 wouldn't surprise me at all. I've seen them for those prices..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Here's a couple more pics I googled. I think the beakhorn stake anvil may be what you were talking about. I also found this cool football shaped one that would go really good with a 2" ball hitch anvil.    Oh man, it better quit raining soon so I can get back to work!250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Call me shy, but as perverse as it may sound, I've never actually stuck anything into my Hardy hole. I thought it was just a square hole in the anvil, but looking at these pics it appears anything built to be placed in it is tapered, so I assume the hole in the anvil is tapered as well. Is there a standard size that fits most, or are they as varied as the styles we are looking at? I thought a ball hitch attachment would be as simple as threading a hole into a square shaft that fit the Hardy, but I'm guessing things are about to get more complicated once again. Is the taper to make it easier to remove the tool once you've beat it into submission?250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Dsw can probably answer better than me but... Yes most hardy tools are tapered not necessarily the hardy hole in the anvil. This makes for a nice wobble free fit and can allow one tool to fit several different size holes. But it isn't necessary for tools to be tapered, normally a tool made for a specific anvil will sit flush on the face ,You can make almost any tool to be used as a hardy, it's like a third hand for chisels, sewage blocks, cones, hold down, square block....the possibilities are endless! Hot cut chisels are an awesome addition to any hardy hole.Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:These are stakes, not hardy tools. A hardy hole IS square and usually straight. Stakes on the other hand usually have a taper and fit into a stake plate similar to what was shown on that Ebay link. Some plates were single vs multiple like that one was. Stake plates themselves can go for big money. They can be harder to find than the stakes as many didn't realize what they were and they got tossed or scrapped. Stake plates have a tapered hole so that they help take the load and spread it out to the plate that is usually mounted on wood. Most stakes are used for light duty shaping.Hardy tooling has a straight shank or slightly tapered shank for use in the hardy hole. The hardy tool often bears on the face of the anvil. The shank simply keeps it upright and in place. When you have items like hot cuts, bottom fullers, or swage blocks, they can take quite a beating, usually way more than anyone would do on a stake. The taper is more a left over from shaping the hadry more than a deliberate taper to make it a "wedge". Drawing something to a taper is fairly easy.  Then you drop in in a swage block or hardy and upset it to fit. That usually "squares" and straightens the shank. The are below this however is still tapered.Also most hardy holes are NOT truly square. If you forge a tool to fit your hardy hole and clock it consistently the same way when you upset it, it will fit really nice in only one way. In some cases guys will flip the tool 180 deg when upsetting so they can use it in either the "north" or "south" orientation vs just say "north". If you constantly turn the tool when forging, you can get it to fit in any direction. The advantage by doing this is you won't get the tool stuck if you accidentally don't install it properly, then start to beat on it. In a really out of square hardy hole there could be a chance you could break the heel by wedging it apart possibly. Down side is the tool will not fit as tight as one clocked to only one direction or only say north/south or east/west. Excess play can always be dealt with say with wooden shims added from underneath to snug things up..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:There are a TON of tools used for the hardy hole. You can also use them for drifting or punching. Some hardy tools themselves have a tapered shank for fitting different size hardy holes as Dan mentioned. Others are flat.Tools include, Horns, miniature anvils, bicks, shaping tools, hot cuts, jigs, and many variations of the previous mentioned.
Reply:Originally Posted by MudmanI don't have an immediate use for one either, nor the scythe. Scythes have long had an appeal to me though. Unsure why- maybe due to unusual design.
Reply:lol reaper of love. I would definitely be afraid of a lady with a scythe
Reply:Originally Posted by Mudman I would definitely be afraid of a lady with a scythe
Reply:haha we got so off track about welding some steel to my anvil.. dangit.
Reply:Nah were just taking a breakBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck