"Certified" mig process for general fabrication

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I am a fabricator for a company where fab work is only part of what we do.  When I started, being certified wasn't important.  Now new management thinks certs are important and look good to the customer.  We use a few different processes (GMAW,SMAW,GTAW) but most of the work done is short circuit mig with 75/25 on 1/8" to 1/4" steel.  My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is short circuit mig in not a AWS certifiable process.  If I am right, then what process would we need to switch to in order to be "certified welders" using the process we are certified to use.  I don't know a lot about the other wire fed processes.  I know there is spray, pulse, gas shielded flux core and there may be others.  I'm just not sure what would be a good "certifiable" replacement for short circuit mig.  I hope this question is clear enough to understand and doesn't ramble too much.  Thanks in advance
Reply:It's not that short circuit mig (GMAW-S) isn't a certifiable process (it is) but rather that it's not a "pre-qualified" process.
Reply:Short circuit mig is not a Prequalified AWS process. You can cert to it, but you have to work out your own procedures etc and get them qualified to do so. This is opposed to say spray mig, where there are a number of prequalified procedures you can choose from.There are places that will work out all the paperwork etc that you need to accomplish what you want. You'll need to pick an AWS standard that you want to work to, say D1.1 that is often common for mig or stick, joint type, filler, material thickness etc.Keep in mind certs only cover that particular joint, for that particular process to that particular standard. If you qualify 3G or 4G 7018 stick, you can cert to limited or unlimited thickness under D1.1. However that cert means nothing if you weld instead with 6010 or 7024, and wouldn't cover you for pipe welds. Those certs are also typically done with a backing plate, if doing open root welds, that would be different certs.When I was looking to work for a guy who does crane repairs, I would have needed to qualify with both mig and  stick, in 3G and 4G unlimited and 2" 6G pipe. That's 6 different certs at almost $1000 each for all the testing and it would only have let me do the most common repairs that they do. If all management wants is papers to show someone, it may not matter if it's exactly what you are doing. Simply being able to state that your welders are certified to weld D1.1 in both stick and mig may be acceptable. It may not matter that you almost never use the procedures you are certified for, as long as the specs from the customer don't call out a specific weld process. If so you could cert 1G with spray mig and be "certified to weld with mig".Edit: I see HT2 beat me too it. I need to learn to type faster... .No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:In the mid 1970s I worked in a Fab shop. Every 3-months we had to recertify. We did this test in 2-G, 3-G, and 4-G. We ran 1/16” wire for the Mig process, with C-25 gas. You can write up your own WPS. Just have to have an engineer approve it. Here is a blank form, and an example of how to fill it out. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Thanks again guys for the great responses.  And all this is really about is being able to tell customers "we have certified welders".  Just to show a level of professionalism and/or competency.  Fabrication/welding, although is all I do, is only a part of a bigger picture which is product testing.  The fabricating only aids in the testing and is usually a small part of being able to conduct a given test.  I bet 99% of the customers don't know anything about welding codes and wouldn't know a D1.1 from a D17.1 or 1F to 3G.  Nothing we build is engineered although we have engineers.  I was also thinking about using this opportunity (I think they'll cover the cost of cert testing) to benefit me outside of work as well.  I have done some work on the side and was thinking of buying some equipment and doing more.  I was hoping having a few certs under my belt may come in handy for me.  I don't know...Thanks for all the help guys.  I knew I'd get some good answers.
Reply:Originally Posted by SJCThanks again guys for the great responses.  And all this is really about is being able to tell customers "we have certified welders".  Just to show a level of professionalism and/or competency.  Fabrication/welding, although is all I do, is only a part of a bigger picture which is product testing.  The fabricating only aids in the testing and is usually a small part of being able to conduct a given test.  I bet 99% of the customers don't know anything about welding codes and wouldn't know a D1.1 from a D17.1 or 1F to 3G.  Nothing we build is engineered although we have engineers.  I was also thinking about using this opportunity (I think they'll cover the cost of cert testing) to benefit me outside of work as well.  I have done some work on the side and was thinking of buying some equipment and doing more.  I was hoping having a few certs under my belt may come in handy for me.  I don't know...Thanks for all the help guys.  I knew I'd get some good answers.
Reply:SJC you can do your own testing. Document the process with pictures to show your customers. Then keep the coupons on hand for proof. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:@DSW: You are only partially correct regarding what AWS D1.1 covers and does not cover. The D1.1 unlimited thickness test, 1" plate welded in the 3G and 4G positions, using low hydrogen electrodes, covers you for the following:Base material: All steels listed in AWS D1.1Thickness: 1/8" to unlimitedFiller Metal Class: EXX10 through EXX28F-Number: F4 and lowerPosition: AllCurrent: Direct CurrentPolarity: Electrode PositiveYou are correct regarding open root welds being under different certifications. However, AWS D1.1 also qualifies you for pipe with a minimum OD of 24", welded with either a chill ring or other backing bar, or a band wrapped around the exterior of the joint and fillet welded.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hillbilly WelderFiller Metal Class: EXX10 through EXX28F-Number: F4 and lower
Reply:On any weld covered by AWS D1.1, yes.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPSJC you can do your own testing. Document the process with pictures to show your customers. Then keep the coupons on hand for proof.
Reply:Well if you are interested, buy a SWPS from AWS for some $180. Just choose the process and metal and thickness range you are interested in. You should also review the guidelines in AWS D1.1 before you start to make sure your essential variables are valid. Use those parameters to run a "welder" coupon. Grind flat, cut and do your bends and if successful  fill out the report form, and you are qualified. This is the way in-shop qualifications/company certifications are earned. If I am correct any qualification earned in one of either tig, mig, or stick, qualifies you for all. Potential customers may want to review your qualification reports.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956CEP,Have you ever tried running a standard 3/8" groove weld test plate with short circuit hardwire and then doing some face and root bend straps to check the results?   Could make for an interesting and information tutorial for the class.   I'm fairly confident it could be done.   Just have to be sure you'd run it good and hot.
Reply:There's no reason it can't be done if you're a halfway competent welder. We've destructively tested hard wire plate welds, both with a backing bar and open root, in all four positions, and they'll bend all day long. We've also done it with 4" and 6" standard wall pipe, open root, same results.  Originally Posted by HT2-4956CEP,Have you ever tried running a standard 3/8" groove weld test plate with short circuit hardwire and then doing some face and root bend straps to check the results?   Could make for an interesting and information tutorial for the class.   I'm fairly confident it could be done.   Just have to be sure you'd run it good and hot.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hillbilly WelderThere's no reason it can't be done if you're a halfway competent welder. We've destructively tested hard wire plate welds, both with a backing bar and open root, in all four positions, and they'll bend all day long. We've also done it with 4" and 6" standard wall pipe, open root, same results.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI did vertical up hill side bend test. With .045” wire, and C-25 gas. On 3/4” thick plate.
Reply:No I misjudged the amount of fill. So the 3-pass cap was too much.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:It can be done, but the flux cored and solid wire spray processes are not only faster, but penetrate better and are much less susceptible to a phenomenon known as "cold lap". It's too easy for an inexperienced welder to lay down a MIG weld that passes visual all day long but is structurally inadequate. With the multitude of other processes available, contractors are saving themselves time and money by using them instead of regular solid wire MIG, and simultaneously reducing the chance of something going wrong.Now, in non-critical applications, it's used frequently. It's relatively cheap, and anybody can be taught to glue pieces of metal together. Originally Posted by Pete.S.There is something I don't really understand. If you can weld thick plate with short-circuit mig in all positions and get enough penetration, why bother with spray and pulsed spray or even gas shielded flux core? Or are there other problems with mig that a bend test wont show? Or are we talking about 3/8" max?In theory short-curcuit mig with C25 is supposedly having a very narrow penetration profile, while spray and fcaw have better penetration on the sides. Did I misunderstand that?PS. Thanks for your reply to my other question about F4 electrodes covering F1-F3 as well..
Reply:Originally Posted by Hillbilly WelderIt can be done, but the flux cored and solid wire spray processes are not only faster, but penetrate better and are much less susceptible to a phenomenon known as "cold lap". It's too easy for an inexperienced welder to lay down a MIG weld that passes visual all day long but is structurally inadequate. With the multitude of other processes available, contractors are saving themselves time and money by using them instead of regular solid wire MIG, and simultaneously reducing the chance of something going wrong.
Reply:Some open roots done with hardwire using RMD (regulated metal deposit) mode.   Miller's high tech improved on version of short circuit transfer.   And since we're just showing off.....Pulsed sprayed hardwire fill and cap.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hillbilly WelderFiller Metal Class: EXX10 through EXX28F-Number: F4 and lower
Reply:You're qualified up to and including a deposited weld metal thickness of 1/4" per pass.
Reply:Originally Posted by SJCWhat about electrode diameter?
Reply:"AWS D1.1 (Structural Welding Code-Steel) Quick Review on Performance Qualification References: AWS D1.1, Clause 4 (Part C), Tables 4.10, 4.11, 4.12, 4.13 AWS D1.1, Table 4.12, Welding Personnel Performance Essential Variables Require Re-qualification:  Process, Position, Pipe Diameter, Thickness, F-Number (SMAW),Vertical progression, Omission of backing (if used in test), and Multiple electrodes (if a single electrode used by welding operator in the WPQR test)""Note: Welders qualified for SAW, GMAW, FCAW or GTAW shall be considered as qualified welding operators in the same process (es) and subject to the welder essential variable limitations, provided the welders receive training and demonstrate their ability to make satisfactory production welds."
Reply:Let me ask this while we're talking about this kind of stuff.  The place I've gone to take my last couple of tests (vocational/adult ed school/accredited test facility) offers a couple pipe tests.  Listed as D1.1, 6g 2" pipe schedule 80 in SMAW (6010/7018) and GTAW, and 6G 6" pipe schedule 120 SMAW (same).  Joint is, 1/8" open root (with 1/8" land on smaw test), listed as not prequalified.  How does that work?  What is it good for?  That specific scenario only?I wouldn't bet your job on it. For 99.99% of welding that's subject to testing of any kind, the inspectors are going to want to see certs. It's almost always an automatic cutout if a critical weld is made by a welder who does not hold the proper certification. I have seen the rare occasion where the inspector permitted the welder to qualify for the procedure halfway through the job to avoid a bunch of cutouts, but it's uncommon. Originally Posted by shovelonI keep going back to this note b under Table 4.12(2006) "Welding Personnel Performance Essential Variable Changes Requiring Requalificaton(see4.22). Am I correct by interpreting that any qualification of a process as described above also qualifies the other processes as long as the welding personnel receives training and  demonstrates ability?
Reply:Your best bet is to just go and speak with the test administrator. They should be able to tell you what the qualification ranges are for the test. Originally Posted by SJCLet me ask this while we're talking about this kind of stuff.  The place I've gone to take my last couple of tests (vocational/adult ed school/accredited test facility) offers a couple pipe tests.  Listed as D1.1, 6g 2" pipe schedule 80 in SMAW (6010/7018) and GTAW, and 6G 6" pipe schedule 120 SMAW (same).  Joint is, 1/8" open root (with 1/8" land on smaw test), listed as not prequalified.  How does that work?  What is it good for?  That specific scenario only?
Reply:Originally Posted by SJCLet me ask this while we're talking about this kind of stuff.  The place I've gone to take my last couple of tests (vocational/adult ed school/accredited test facility) offers a couple pipe tests.  Listed as D1.1, 6g 2" pipe schedule 80 in SMAW (6010/7018) and GTAW, and 6G 6" pipe schedule 120 SMAW (same).  Joint is, 1/8" open root (with 1/8" land on smaw test), listed as not prequalified.  How does that work?  What is it good for?  That specific scenario only?
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956Are you sure about that being D1.1?   That sounds more like ASME Section IX pipe test to me.
Reply:Keep it up in a FCM D1.5 bridge shop and have to certify in several states Port Authority ,City of NY it costs around 6000 to qualify our welders for each process and we run around 25 of them. Only good for 3 years too.Full time CWI. staff, xRay sub,& NYS CWI UT  inspector which their is only 25 certified in the field. And build tower crane and erection aids it is quite involved.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI keep going back to this note b under Table 4.12(2006) "Welding Personnel Performance Essential Variable Changes Requiring Requalificaton(see4.22). Am I correct by interpreting that any qualification of a process as described above also qualifies the other processes as long as the welding personnel receives training and  demonstrates ability?
Reply:Good catch, HT.
Reply:Originally Posted by SJCThey have it listed on a sheet of tests they offer as D1.1-08
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI did vertical up hill side bend test. With .045” wire, and C-25 gas. On 3/4” thick plate.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hillbilly WelderGood catch, HT.
Reply:Originally Posted by Daniel-BHey cep. You have to bend these coupon all the way to make them count.
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956Forgive my cynicism but that sounds a little hinky to me.   For one thing any legitimate testing / certification place would be making reference to the current version of the D1.1 and not the 2008 edition.   Plus those weld tests you've described are more in keeping with what you'd expect to find pipe welders taking in order to qualify for jobs where the work is being done to ASME and API codes (and not the D1.1 Structural Steel code).
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956shovelon,The key words in that note are "Welder" and "Welding Operator".   What it's saying is that a Welders qualification (where the welding is done manually) with any one of those processes also qualifies the person to be a Welding Operator (where the welding has been fully automated) with the same process.   It doesn't mean that if you've got a "Welders" qualification with one of those processes you've also got a "Welders" qualification with the others.   Also note that it doesn't work in reverse.   Having a "Welding Operators" cert in a particular process won't also count as a "Welders" cert with it.    Do you see what I'm trying to get at?
Reply:Originally Posted by SJCMaybe it's a typo that nobody caught or questioned. I'll have to ask them about it.
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956My advice is for you to be careful about spending a bunch of money to get a bunch of welding certifications from a place where that's their main focus.    There's places out there that I consider to be pretty much nothing more than "certification mills" whose business model is based on not much more than giving younger, less experienced people (like welding students) very unrealistic expectations about just how important having that certification paper work from them is.   For the most part nobody else involved with serious code work is going to  attach any importance to it when it comes to considering hiring you for a job.   Even these welding programs that promise you various "welding certifications" upon successful completion of the course are kind of misleading you.   That paperwork is not going to mean near as much to a potential future employer as they'd like you to think it is.   At most it'll just be considered as proof you've had some training.
Reply:Thanks for all the help and advice.