Heat Soak Problems

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The 1 ton refuses to run after it's been run hard.  It will stall once you come to a stop, and refuse to start until the motor cools down.  Prior to stalling, it runs with reduced power.At first, I assumed it was vapor lock.  Being as it would restart after you pop the hood, and let it sit for half an hour.This happened again on Sunday while hauling hay.  Stalled in front of the driveway.Restarted fine after cooldown, but it did something that's leading me to think it's not a fuel problem......................Ran like crap in the driveway while going up a slight grade........engine under minimal load.  BUT.....the damn thing ran perfect going down a slight gradeThis motor uses a coil, and a module in/on the distributor, and some sorta module on the firewall.  I'm wondering if there's a heat problem in one of these electrical components.For the past year, the thing has had dropping power.  Used to run 70mph with a 10K load, now it's doin' good to maintain 55mph in most situations.Gotta head to town today to pick up some stuff, might pick up an inductive thingy to check spark at the plug wires in order to see if the thing's getting spark when this happens.  No other way to test it I'm thinkin'.  No good way to replicate heat soak
Reply:Lisle makes a good inline spark tester that you can run the motor with while plugged in. If it dies again, check for spark and if none present, ice down the module and retest.
Reply:Check the grounding of the module on the firewall, if I remember right, that was a common problem.  If it checks out good, get a heat gun on a cold engine and heat up the different components until the problem shows up or the opposite way as MJD said above with ice.............Mike
Reply:If it is a Duraspark system(cast aluminum ignition module on the drivers side fenderwell) it is probably the pickup module inside the distributor.I've had several do the exact same thing you describe and it was the pickup module.If it is a TFI system(small ignition module bolted to the side of the distributor) it could be either the pickup module or the TFI module!You will need a special wrench to remove the TFI module screws! https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-64650-I.../dp/B0002STS30
Reply:farmersammmDo you have any electrical accessories that bypassed the ignition switch? Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by rexcormackIf it is a Duraspark system(cast aluminum ignition module on the drivers side fenderwell) it is probably the pickup module inside the distributor.I've had several do the exact same thing you describe and it was the pickup module.If it is a TFI system(small ignition module bolted to the side of the distributor) it could be either the pickup module or the TFI module!You will need a special wrench to remove the TFI module screws! https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-64650-I.../dp/B0002STS30
Reply:I'll try the heat gun. All I have is a hair dryer........if it doesn't work I'll go get a heat gun.  And I'll carry some water in the truck to see if it works when it's hot.  Douse it on the module.Ran it today,, and no problems stall wise......no real power, but ran ok.  It was below 90* today, so that tells ya somethin' I guess.Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I'll try the things you guys said.BTW.......it's a Ford system, so that ought to make a difference.  I know where the stuff is, so I'll be able to mess with it.
Reply:Sam you might try calling Oreillys and see if they can test the Modules for you. You would probably need to pull them off of the truck and have another vehicle to run them in to be tested. The local Oreillys near me does a pretty good job of testing these and if you find the right person in the store a lot of times they can do stuff to replicate the problem to see if it works then doesn't.
Reply:One thing I remember from the older systems is occasionally a hairline crack can develop on the coil and cause issues when it heat's up. Just one more thing to think about.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:All components were tested with a heat gun, trying to make the truck stall.  Nothing showed any signs of problems.  Starter/battery relay, fuel pump relay, ignition module, distributor housing (pickup sensor), and ignition coil.  I'm convinced that the problem is NOT electrical at this point.Next up is where I really started.................the fuel system.Nothing is definitive here either.  The fuel regulator tests good, but it might be the fuel pump getting hot after running for a while.  I would like to see the pump run up to 45psi, but it's sort of within specs at this point.I can let it run for an hour, engine off..........but I figure it's easier, and more definite, if I current ramp the pump.  Ordered a low amp probe for my scope, and figure I'll find out more when it gets here (shrug)BTW  The rear tank fuel pump failed on the F-150 Friday.  Luckily it puked about 3/4 mi. from the house, so the walk wasn't too bad.  The front tank ran out of gas, and when I switched to the back tank.................nothing.........no hum from the fuel pumpSadly........neither problem is a parts changer deal.  Motorcraft pumps for these trucks run between 3 and 400 bucks  You better be right before you go out and spend near half a grand.
Reply:Just for fun, check the fuel pump plug on the top of the tank. Not sure about Fords, but the 90's Dodges would heat up the terminals and die, after cooling off the pump would run a while again. Usually by that time the pump needed replacement because the terminals were nearly burned off. The new pumps came with a replacement harness to splice in.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71Just for fun, check the fuel pump plug on the top of the tank. Not sure about Fords, but the 90's Dodges would heat up the terminals and die, after cooling off the pump would run a while again. Usually by that time the pump needed replacement because the terminals were nearly burned off. The new pumps came with a replacement harness to splice in.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmI will definitely check that out.  About 5 days ago we went to town to take a big load of crap to the local transfer station in the F-150, and I ran over a branch on the road (we had a bad ice storm the week prior), and it bounced along underneath the truck............so an electrical check is definitely in order.  Won't hurt to do the same on the 1 ton.I think I can get my hand up there to check either truck.  Sadly, it's a bed-off for pump replacement on both of the damn trucks.  I don't care to have to fight with rusted fasteners in order to drop the tanks.  Easier to just lift the bed off (hopefully with no incidents)
Reply:Cut out a hole in the bed over the fuel pump, then plate it when your done. Just a darned old work truck!
Reply:Not sure when the amp probe will arrive.https://www.amazon.com/Hantek%C2%AE-.../dp/B06W2KFZLW  (I bought off of Fleabay, Bezos has enough money, doesn't need mine)It's identical to the one that OTC sells for their scopes, probably made in the same factory.Probably has $3 worth of components in it
Reply:Originally Posted by cwbyCut out a hole in the bed over the fuel pump, then plate it when your done. Just a darned old work truck!
Reply:I had a marine engine drive me Nuts doing just what you describe once. Turned out to be a bad rotor. This was the type of rotor that pushed-down onto the distributors shaft and, when the shaft got hot it swelled enough to open a crack and allow the coil connection, at the center of the rotor, to pass the high voltage to ground...
Reply:Originally Posted by BaTuI had a marine engine drive me Nuts doing just what you describe once. Turned out to be a bad rotor. This was the type of rotor that pushed-down onto the distributors shaft and, when the shaft got hot it swelled enough to open a crack and allow the coil connection, at the center of the rotor, to pass the high voltage to ground...
Reply:Supposedly, this high fallutin' probe will allow me to "see" what's goin' on in the pump.  Determine how fast it's running, whether the brushes and commutators are good, see if there's a blockage in the fuel line to the injectors, if amp draw is within specs, and a couple of other things.It's a brave new world, and I'm not sure I'm really caught up with it yet.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmI'll try the heat gun. All I have is a hair dryer........if it doesn't work I'll go get a heat gun.  And I'll carry some water in the truck to see if it works when it's hot.  Douse it on the module.Ran it today,, and no problems stall wise......no real power, but ran ok.  It was below 90* today, so that tells ya somethin' I guess.Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I'll try the things you guys said.BTW.......it's a Ford system, so that ought to make a difference.  I know where the stuff is, so I'll be able to mess with it.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmNot sure when the amp probe will arrive.https://www.amazon.com/Hantek%C2%AE-.../dp/B06W2KFZLW  (I bought off of Fleabay, Bezos has enough money, doesn't need mine)It's identical to the one that OTC sells for their scopes, probably made in the same factory.Probably has $3 worth of components in it
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmThe 1 ton refuses to run after it's been run hard.  It will stall once you come to a stop, and refuse to start until the motor cools down.  Prior to stalling, it runs with reduced power.At first, I assumed it was vapor lock.  Being as it would restart after you pop the hood, and let it sit for half an hour.This happened again on Sunday while hauling hay.  Stalled in front of the driveway.Restarted fine after cooldown, but it did something that's leading me to think it's not a fuel problem......................Ran like crap in the driveway while going up a slight grade........engine under minimal load.  BUT.....the damn thing ran perfect going down a slight gradeThis motor uses a coil, and a module in/on the distributor, and some sorta module on the firewall.  I'm wondering if there's a heat problem in one of these electrical components.For the past year, the thing has had dropping power.  Used to run 70mph with a 10K load, now it's doin' good to maintain 55mph in most situations.Gotta head to town today to pick up some stuff, might pick up an inductive thingy to check spark at the plug wires in order to see if the thing's getting spark when this happens.  No other way to test it I'm thinkin'.  No good way to replicate heat soak
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmSupposedly, this high fallutin' probe will allow me to "see" what's goin' on in the pump.  Determine how fast it's running, whether the brushes and commutators are good, see if there's a blockage in the fuel line to the injectors, if amp draw is within specs, and a couple of other things.It's a brave new world, and I'm not sure I'm really caught up with it yet.
Reply:Bill:I believe the probe has various accuracy levels at different settings.  I think the error is around 2% IIRC.  Have to look at the specs to verify.The fuel pump doesn't have a "driver".  It's an old fuel system with a return to tank line.  The pump just runs flat out all the time.........the regulator just allows fuel to return to the tank according to fuel demand.  I've read that the more modern systems do have a driver module that varies pump speed according to fuel demand (no return line back to tank), so this one ought (yeah right!) to be easier to diagnose.
Reply:https://www.autosafety.org/ford-tfi-...ss-settlement/This I believe was the device that went on the GMC Savana Van. Sincerely, William McCormickIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.Originally Posted by William McCormickhttps://www.autosafety.org/ford-tfi-...ss-settlement/This I believe was the device that went on the GMC Savana Van. Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:Sammm, does it have an emergency fuel pump shutoff, if so it should be in the right side kick panel, some were notorious for the terminal blocks melting and causing a bad connection, what year is the truck?IMPEACH BIDEN!NRA LIFE MEMBERUNITWELD 175 AMP 3 IN1 DCMIDSTATES 300 AMP AC MACHINEGOD HELP AMERICA!“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream".RONALD REAGAN
Reply:Originally Posted by CAVEMANNSammm, does it have an emergency fuel pump shutoff, if so it should be in the right side kick panel, some were notorious for the terminal blocks melting and causing a bad connection, what year is the truck?
Reply:I happened to look at my Emails, and noticed the receipt from Paypal for the probe.It showed a payment to about a 3/4" long string of Chinese characters  I didn't open the Email...........never know.........might unleash a horde of MIDGETS in my puterI explicitly bought from a "US' seller.  Well..........I'm thinking these Chinese companies are just using an address in California for purposes of doing business on Ebay.  Although, the DHL tracking number shows it processed through Compton last night.  Maybe some sorta industrial park small storefront/warehouse unit??????
Reply:The stinkin' probe last scanned thru the Grand Prairie, Texas facility  Be lucky if I get the stinkin' thing by Tuesday
Reply:The probe showed up today I scanned the specs for those interested.  I imagine they're the same as all the other brands, as they're probably made by the same people (Hantek)Considering what the others cost, once they're labeled differently..........this appears to be identical for about $55
Reply:I found two good videos on the subject.  I'm not familiar with this sort of testing,, so I'm going off tutorials on YouTube.Both of my trucks never set a "lean" code when they run out of fuel, or the pump quits...............so I think this is the only way, short of hooking up the pressure gauge, and driving while waiting for a failure.Probe specs are in the previous post.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmI found two good videos on the subject.  I'm not familiar with this sort of testing,, so I'm going off tutorials on YouTube.Both of my trucks never set a "lean" code when they run out of fuel, or the pump quits...............so I think this is the only way, short of hooking up the pressure gauge, and driving while waiting for a failure.Probe specs are in the previous post.
Reply:Got after it today................First test:  Pressure regulator WITHOUT vacuum.  This means that the fuel demand is high, and the pressure has to be high, which means that the pressure regulator RESTRICTS flow.  Less gas flows back to the tank.  (This is an old system WITHOUT fuel pump control.......it just runs flat out all the time)  60,000 (miliseconds in a minute) / Delta 12.7 (the time between the brushes hitting 8 commutators) = 4700rpmSecond Test:  Pressure regulator WITH vacuum.  This means the engine is idling, and the pressure doesn't have to be high........just enough to supply the injectors at low RPM.  The pressure regulator OPENS UP to allow gas to go back to the tank in order to relieve pressure.  60,000/10.6 = 5600rpmRPM on a Ford V-8 in this year should be around 6000rpm, from what I've been able to gather.  AT ALL PRESSURE, AND FLOW, DEMAND.  This thing is bogging down when it has to push pressure.How it works.................Domestic pumps in this year, and maybe even now, have 8 commutators.  This translates to 8 humps in the waveform.  Setting the cursor so that it divides the waveform into 8 distinct humps gives me the time from start to finish as those humps complete one revolution.  It's like 8 on-off cycles, which make up one full revolution of the pump motor.To verify............I ran a quick test on the F-150.  It has a higher pressure pump.  There was no variance in RPM, or Amp draw, at any pressure.  Steady as a rock.So...........we're right back to vapor lock!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Old time pre fuel injection wisdom.  If it quits when it gets hot, and acts like it's running out of fuel, it's gotta be vapor lock.  I'm still here on the diagnosis.For S&G's I looked up the pressure at which vapor lock can occur............  https://www.mckinseyenergyinsights.c...apor-pressure/I have no idea whether my pressure is going that low when everything is hot.  This truck regularly gets so hot that you cannot touch the front fenders, or hood, when the ambient temp is relatively high,, and it's been pulling a load.  Ton of heat coupled with a pump that's definitely out of spec.........pressure test, and rpm test..........I'm thinkin' it's the pump.  And, the truck will restart, and run ok when it's been sitting for an hour.  All points to the pump.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmGot after it today................First test:  Pressure regulator WITHOUT vacuum.  This means that the fuel demand is high, and the pressure has to be high, which means that the pressure regulator RESTRICTS flow.  Less gas flows back to the tank.  (This is an old system WITHOUT fuel pump control.......it just runs flat out all the time)  60,000 (miliseconds in a minute) / Delta 12.7 (the time between the brushes hitting 8 commutators) = 4700rpmSecond Test:  Pressure regulator WITH vacuum.  This means the engine is idling, and the pressure doesn't have to be high........just enough to supply the injectors at low RPM.  The pressure regulator OPENS UP to allow gas to go back to the tank in order to relieve pressure.  60,000/10.6 = 5600rpmRPM on a Ford V-8 in this year should be around 6000rpm, from what I've been able to gather.  AT ALL PRESSURE, AND FLOW, DEMAND.  This thing is bogging down when it has to push pressure.How it works.................Domestic pumps in this year, and maybe even now, have 8 commutators.  This translates to 8 humps in the waveform.  Setting the cursor so that it divides the waveform into 8 distinct humps gives me the time from start to finish as those humps complete one revolution.  It's like 8 on-off cycles, which make up one full revolution of the pump motor.To verify............I ran a quick test on the F-150.  It has a higher pressure pump.  There was no variance in RPM, or Amp draw, at any pressure.  Steady as a rock.So...........we're right back to vapor lock!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Old time pre fuel injection wisdom.  If it quits when it gets hot, and acts like it's running out of fuel, it's gotta be vapor lock.  I'm still here on the diagnosis.For S&G's I looked up the pressure at which vapor lock can occur............  https://www.mckinseyenergyinsights.c...apor-pressure/I have no idea whether my pressure is going that low when everything is hot.  This truck regularly gets so hot that you cannot touch the front fenders, or hood, when the ambient temp is relatively high,, and it's been pulling a load.  Ton of heat coupled with a pump that's definitely out of spec.........pressure test, and rpm test..........I'm thinkin' it's the pump.  And, the truck will restart, and run ok when it's been sitting for an hour.  All points to the pump.
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormickIs the amperage too low? I cannot make out what each division is supposed to be representing?Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:Hey Bill................  It seems that the current probe converts current flow into milivolts, which can be converted, using mental gymnastics, into amps.  I'm on the verge of figuring it out I think  Never used a scope to measure amps before, so it's a learning curveI'll get back to ya when my moron brain has it figured out
Reply:I got 'er fingered out!!The Hantek low amp probe is different from those mostly used for automotive stuff, but it's same same (sorta).  This probe has two settings.  1Mv = 10Ma...........and 1Mv = 100MaWe know that 1000Ma = 1ampMy voltage range is 50Mv per division on the vertical axis.My time is 2Ms per division So..............................we gots approximately 150Mv output from the probe.150Mv x 10Ma = 1500Ma1500Ma / 1000Ma = 1.5ampsThe pump is TOAST  .  Or there's excessive resistance in the circuit.  Or my calculations are wrongNow why the graphing multimeter function gave a bad result (amps too high compared to scope), I dunno (shrug)   I don't fully understand this aspect yet.
Reply:What's the year model and make of the truck?What engine is in it?Have you eliminated the basics such as fuel filter and basic tune up?It does sound like fuel starvation problem which can be a clogged filter or screen in the tank on the fuel pickup. After the  truck Sits a while the clog eases somewhat as there is no longer any pressure on the filter and it will run again for a while.Just a thought and easy enough to do the filter for a few bucks.Also check for a restricted exhaust system problem.Last edited by solman; 11-19-2020 at 11:56 AM.
Reply:This has been a really difficult learning curve, and I've spread some misinformation.........I apologizeAfter watching literally hours of YouTube videos, and trying to understand manuals written for someone who ACTUALLY  has a clue................I finally got it.  WHEW!!The basic screen has a BASELINE.  It's labeled "A".The divisions ABOVE AND BELOW that baseline are volts, millivolts, and microvolts.........depending on how you set the scope up.  This is the default location for the baseline.  Always in the middle.  You can reposition the baseline if you need to measure volts in excess of half the horizontal divisions on the screen.  In this example, each division has been set to represent 5V  (A:5V lower left hand corner).  I can measure a signal up to 35 volts now, because I have 7 divisions above the baseline.The screen shows a flat solid line on A (baseline).  This is because no voltage is being measured.  This is 0If I were to measure a constant DC signal, the solid black line would move ABOVE the baseline (A) in divisions corresponding to the amount of voltage I'm measuring.Now, let's look at what was actually measured on the truck (sorry about the glare, and poor photos)  This is looking at the Graphing Multimeter.  The solid line is one division above the baseline, plus a tad.  Now look directly below the divisions.  The number second from the left identifies what each division represents.  In this case..........each division is 5amps (5A/d).  The digital display in the upper left shows the amperage (5.88).  This corresponds with the location of the solid line on the grid above the baseline.  You can see the line is about 1/5 the distance into the next division.   (Before we go onto the scope, you might be wondering why the solid line doesn't show any waveform.....it's because the minimum time division on the GMM is 5 seconds, and the variation in amps is too small for the scale on the GMM).Now let's see how it looks on the scope.  This is current ramping the fuel pump.  Measuring same thing as the GMM, but now we can see the current build between the commutator bars on the motor as it spins.  From low amperage to max amperage on each wave.The baseline is at A.  There are 7 divisions above A.  Looking directly underneath the graph, you see what each division represents (A:0.1V).  Each division is 1/10 volt, or 100 milliamperes.Our highest peak on the wave is a tad above the 6th division, or 600mAThe amp probe is set at ImV/10mA.  This means that we multiply the 600mA reading by 10, which gives us 6000mA, or around 6amps.  Thus, the oscilliscope agrees with the Graphing Multimeter (GMM)Next, we have to interpret the peaks and valleys in the oscilliscope pattern.  Each peak is the max amp draw as the motor spins.  The valleys are the lowest amps drawn as the motor spins.  You're never going to get back down to the baseline if the brush/commutator are passing current as they interact.  The only time you'll get down to the baseline is if you have a "dead" commutator (this is where you have to bang on the gas tank to get the pump going again).  So, the pump in the truck is drawing 6amps peak, and 5amps minimum, as it spins.  It's not suffering from a dead spot.Last edited by farmersammm; 11-19-2020 at 09:26 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by solmanWhat's the year model and make of the truck?What engine is in it?Have you eliminated the basics such as fuel filter and basic tune up?It does sound like fuel starvation problem which can be a clogged filter or screen in the tank on the fuel pickup. After the  truck Sits a while the clog eases somewhat as there is no longer any pressure on the filter and it will run again for a while.Just a thought and easy enough to do the filter for a few bucks.Also check for a restricted exhaust system problem.
Reply:Put about 40 miles on it this evening, and no problems  Gas mileage is back to normal...........it took about 7.5 gallons to make the trip.  Power was pretty good..........70mph when needed.  No hesitation, and NO STINKIN' VAPOR LOCK WHEN IT GOT HOT ON THE WAY BACKI'd like to see another 5lbs on the snap, but it's running well...................so for now, it's good to go.  The fuel filter was the culprit.  And......if I ever find the time, I'd like to drop the tank, clean it out, and put a new strainer on the pump.I guess it seemed like a long drawn out process, but mostly the time was used to learn how to use the scope. I've never had to do actual voltage measurements on the thing in all the years I've owned it.  Knowing what I know now, it really boils down to about a 15 minute total test including pressure, and amp ramping.  This was the first fuel problem I've had on any of my 1994's.  I guess it says a lot for that particular year.Would I just guess, and slap a filter on it??????  Y'all know me  It has to be a right diagnosis before I do anything.  I hate throwing parts at a problemIt's a real pleasure to have it back up and running again.  There isn't a modern gasser that will out pull these old 460's.  I get a kick out of flyin' by them on a four lane
Reply:Only two pages.  I must be slipping in my old age
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmOnly two pages.  I must be slipping in my old age
Reply:Glad thats fixed, now you can get onto the pickup.  Looking forward to what you find there.  I have the same issue- low pressure from the rear tank but not the front.  First thought was the pump, but a new one didn't fix it.  It will run along at part throttle, but lay down when more power is needed.  Front tank runs fine.  From what I read, there is a check valve in the system that could be bleeding off pressure.  More diagnostics needed here too.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZimmGlad thats fixed, now you can get onto the pickup.  Looking forward to what you find there.  I have the same issue- low pressure from the rear tank but not the front.  First thought was the pump, but a new one didn't fix it.  It will run along at part throttle, but lay down when more power is needed.  Front tank runs fine.  From what I read, there is a check valve in the system that could be bleeding off pressure.  More diagnostics needed here too.
Reply:When it was a couple years old, my 2001 Savana van had the 4 wheel drive conversion. The fuel pump cut out regularly. Took it to the dealer several times for fix. They said it wouldn't act up for them. I needed the truck, so I added key on power source controlled by a manual switch. Mr. Goodwrench kept removing my added wiring. I got mad, said if you can fix it so it doesn't quit on the road, go ahead and remove my extras. Otherwise LEAVE it there! I drove it that way a few more years. Eventually the gas tank leaked. In all the wrestling installing a new tank, we discovered a mating plug in the wiring harness above the transfer case. Because the transfer case is not original, the harness was stretched.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by ronsiiSounds like the common issue with the multi tank fords  the check valve on the fuel pump assemblies goes bad and let the other pump feed back into the bad pump(tank)... symptoms are low fuel pressure on one or both tanks, slugishness, running rich,etc....Fix: replace the bad fuel pump/s or some people have actually put in secondary check valves...
Reply:Might be the same sockets you ordered.  Anyways, I thought this was a good idea.  I've never seen these before.
Reply:"Any ideas for how to get that plug out would be welcome." If you can get around it, slip a very large nut over it. MIG it to the steel. If you can't make room, break off the porcelain. Slip an impact socket over it, and weld it to it with 6011 filler. The heat from welding might help, but be careful not to get the head too hot. It'll take a tremendous lever of patience wiggling the socket back & forth, I think it'll loosen.Friday I had two grade 2? bolts rusted solid in the end of two shafts, and broke off 1/4" deep. Only welder I had was MIG. With patience I built up flush, then a good sized ball of filler sticking out. It took 15 minutes each of wiggling with vice grips to free the thread. One of the two was bent halfway through the thread.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.