Deve needs a Plasma!

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Ok, so I had a partner who purchased us a Hypertherm 65 and it is exactly what I want. However, my partner and I split the cost and since he has it now, I need to purchase one less expensive but very comparable. (Sorry Jim!). So ideas? Thanks again!
Reply:I have a hypetherm PM65, and if I have to buy again a Plasma, I will choice Hypertherm.Mauricio
Reply:Originally Posted by DeveOk, so I had a partner who purchased us a Hypertherm 65 and it is exactly what I want. However, my partner and I split the cost and since he has it now, I need to purchase one less expensive but very comparable. (Sorry Jim!). So ideas? Thanks again!
Reply:[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Hypertherm-Powermax-65-Hand-System/dp/B0041X0HZ0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1363477422&sr=8-3&keywords=Hypertherm[/ame]Mauricio
Reply:http://www.weldersupply.com/
Reply:Does anyone have any experience with Everlast? I also need a TIG so would one of their combos be a good choice?[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Everlast-PowerPro-Plasma-Cutter-Process/dp/B0081BF1AE/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_14[/ame]
Reply:1st you won't find anything " very comparable" to a Hypertherm that's less money. To go "cheap" you'll have to give up something.That's sort of like saying you want a Lamborghini, but you have a $5000 budget... You can get a used  import car with 4 wheels, and maybe the color will be close, but it's not going to perform anything like the original. As far as import plasma combos, in general they have had a very poor track record over the years. Lots of those machines had a very bad tendency to go  "bang" and die. Honestly I'd stay away from them for several reasons..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Everlast and Hypertherm should not be used in the same sentence except to say they are as different as night and day.  I won't speak about the machine as I don't own one.  Hypertherm is a great machine and great company!
Reply:Originally Posted by DeveDoes anyone have any experience with Everlast? I also need a TIG so would one of their combos be a good choice?
Reply:I read that. I run into that with other equipment too and I get pretty upset. The problem is, I am a one man automotive restoration shop. I cut 1/2" pretty regularly for tooling but mostly need it for sheet metal. Hypertherm is just too proud of their machines for my use. Keep those suggestions coming! Thanks
Reply:Stay away from Eastwood.(check my other posts for the whole story)  Seems like all the Chinese stuff has very very high return rates.  You pay for the warranty, not quality.  My eastwood 60 amp plasma worked great for 20 minutes, took almost 3 weeks for the refund, bad experience.  Lost almost a month i didnt have. Ordered a hypertherm 30 and ran it for about 4 hours, almost constant, yesterday, never a hiccup, just cutting metal.  I was cutting a box off a commercial fertilizer spreader that is towed behind a tractor, about 9 feet long, 7 foot wide, and 6 foot tall.  Lots of long cuts.  The 60 amp machine went through 5/8 inch like butter, then it quit.    The 30 struggled a bit, but got it done and kept working all day.  Weldersupply.com had the best prices on miller, thermodynamics, and hypertherm, cyber weld was not far off.  If you need your tools to work when you hit the trigger, stay away from imports.  If you can wait for the company to send you another or repair yours, Chinese will save you a few hundred bucks.   My eastwood was like 899, the ht was 1075 or so.  A 60 amp would have been 1500 and change.  Had I known my sons ag class would qualify for the rebate, I would have bought the bigger ht.   dang it....Good luck,Jay
Reply:Originally Posted by Deve Hypertherm is just too proud of their machines for my use.
Reply:I own an Everlast plasma cutter.  When I first bought it I used it for about 2 minutes before the machine stopped working and started smoking.  I paid to return the machine to Everlast and they sent me a new one.  The second I turned on the new one the hose caught on fire.  Everlast then sent me a replacement hose, I didn't have to ship the old one back.  After hooking up the replacement hose I tried to use the machine but heard an air leak inside.  I opened up the machine to find that there was a loose air connection inside.  Everlast shipped me the replacement parts.  I changed the internal air hose and the machine worked.  I have now been using the machine without issues for several years.  Everlast does honor their warranty and their machine does work well after getting the defective parts swapped out.  Its unfortunate that I and several others have had issues from the start with these machines.  Once the bad parts were replaced the machine has been working well and I've been happy with it.As a comparison, I bought my Tig and Mig welders used.  Each are Millers that were several years old when I bought them.  I have added another few years of wear to them.  I have never had any issues with them.  Just remember the old saying, "You get what you pay for."*************************************Mike AccardiHenderson, [email protected] 250XLincoln Weldpack HDMiller Syncrowave 180 SD*************************************
Reply:Not sure exactly what you are getting at with this statement. Originally Posted by Deve. Hypertherm is just too proud of their machines for my use.
Reply:Originally Posted by jimcolt The Hypertherm is the F350.Jim Colt
Reply:BrandX....maybe I should have used Chevy for the analogy.....since Hypertherm has a Duramax torch! I actually have an F250 diesel.....we haul horses with it most of the time. A new one ton will come this summer...
Reply:Well, you can get an import for about $800 but a 'comparable' Hypertherm costs about $2700. I owned a Hypertherm 65 until last week. LOVED it. Would a Hypertherm 45 work to cut occasional 1/2 steel? If I take the 65, lower the amperage on the control panel to 45 amps, then the answer is NO. I tried that and it was a miserable experience. If the 45 behaves better than that, maybe? Jim what do you think? I can spend $1800 for the 45 but I just cant make the jump to the 65 at 2700 delivered.
Reply:If you cannot cut 1/2 " with the Powermax65 with the 45 amp shielded Consumables, with excellent cut  quality then something is terribly wrong! The 65 with 45 amp consumables cuts exactly like the 45. The 45 amp process pierces 1/2 " and cuts at 21 ipm. If necessary I'll go out in my shop and cut a 1/2" part at 45 amps with my 85 and post a pic for you. Also....the 65 is only about $400 more than a 45. Looks like you are comparing an internet price on the 45 to a list price on a 65. Shop around, the prices are way closer!The 45 will cut as thick and fast as any $800 import with dramatically longer consumable life....and squarer cut edges. Need a sample cut?
Reply:Jim, all I did was drop the 65 down to 45 on the control panel with 65 consumables. I no nothing about all this, so if that is not apples to apples, then I need to know that the 45 would be better than that. All I really need to know is that the 45 cuts 1/2" steel easily so I can make small tables, receiver plates for vises, anvils, etc from time to time. Mostly I will be cutting 18 gauge sheet metal so it wont matter, but I just need it to cut 1/2 inch. I am comparing Amazon to Amazon prices. This is because my local welding supplier has trouble matching the low prices at Amazon but reluctantly will do it. 1830 plus shipping for the 45, 2599 plus shipping for the 65.
Reply:I was playing with my new 30 and went through  3/4.  Not pretty or fast, but did it never the less. Don't have any 1/2 laying around.  Here is an extra $200 for you.  Free shipping and fast service.http://www.weldersupply.com/products...tting+MachinesThere is also a rebate from ht if you are a recent welding grad that I think is $200 for the 45.  My 30 is pretty amazing so far.  Learning this plasma thing but picking it up fast.  My cutting is done, now to start building.  I wish I would have got the 45 now, but the times I will need it are few and far between.  I think the 30 will do what litte 1/2 I encounter just fine.  Jay
Reply:Originally Posted by jimcoltAlso....the 65 is only about $400 more than a 45
Reply:Originally Posted by jimcoltBrandX....maybe I should have used Chevy for the analogy.....since Hypertherm has a Duramax torch! I actually have an F250 diesel.....we haul horses with it most of the time. A new one ton will come this summer...
Reply:Suggested list price for a base hand torch version of the Powermax45 is right around $2300, suggested list price for a Powermax65 is right around $2700. Dealers can sell the units at any price they want...but generally they won't sell them for less money than they have to pay for them. I work for Hypertherm...all units are sold through our distributors. We do not warehouse any units, they are always shipped within about 24 hours of being built, most often within a few hours!  Our distributors...especially the larger ones do purchase larger lots and warehouse them.Jim Originally Posted by OldSkullActualy Jim the best price for the PM45 I seen was $1600 and for the PM65 it was $2300 so it's a $700 step....If you can share with us were we can get a PM65 for $2000 I bet your stock at the warehouse may get pretty low...
Reply:The Powermax65 has 3 sets of consumables: FineCuts for under 10 gauge cutting, 45 amps and 65 amp shielded sets. Each set of consumables is designed to produce its best energy density at its max amperage rating. Using a 65 amp nozzle at less than 65 amps effectively "softens" the arc, and produces worse edge angularity and more chance of dross. So....if you want best quality on 1/2" while cutting at 45 amps, you need to use the 45 amp nozzle. Here are pictures of some 1/2" steel parts cut with a Hypertherm Powermax45 on my PlasmaCam machine. If I ran a Powermax85 or 65 with the 45 amp consumables...the cuts would be the same.Interestingly....most low cost import plasma's only have one available consumable set for all thicknesses. Think about how the cut quality is affected as you cut thin materials vs thick materials.Jim Colt Originally Posted by DeveJim, all I did was drop the 65 down to 45 on the control panel with 65 consumables. I no nothing about all this, so if that is not apples to apples, then I need to know that the 45 would be better than that. All I really need to know is that the 45 cuts 1/2" steel easily so I can make small tables, receiver plates for vises, anvils, etc from time to time. Mostly I will be cutting 18 gauge sheet metal so it wont matter, but I just need it to cut 1/2 inch. I am comparing Amazon to Amazon prices. This is because my local welding supplier has trouble matching the low prices at Amazon but reluctantly will do it. 1830 plus shipping for the 45, 2599 plus shipping for the 65.
Reply:Comparable no, less expensive (<$1000) yes:http://store.cyberweld.com/thdycu42plcu.htmlWhat I use for hand cutting.Good little machine. It compares well with the Powermax30 and at a similar price. The Powermax30 is made in USA, the Cutmaster 42 imported from China. Just depends on your preferences regarding where you spend your money!Jim Originally Posted by dbotosComparable no, less expensive (<$1000) yes:http://store.cyberweld.com/thdycu42plcu.htmlWhat I use for hand cutting.
Reply:If your just doing body work and the occasional frame work and maybe cutting some 1/2" then all you really need is the PM 30Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Another option is ParkerMetalworking. I have the PM 40/160 and have never had an issue.http://www.parkermetalworking.comMy Photos on Flickr
Reply:As I see it:You either want a real plasma cutter or a chinesse trinket to play around with.  If you want a plasma, the guys in NH perfected it. If you want a trinket just pick the one that comes in your favorite color and know that it'll be in the land fill in a few years (if you're lucky).If my NH TD Cutmaster ever gives up the ghost I know what I'll replace it with.Syncrowave 300Maxtron 450, S-52E, 30A
Reply:I just bought a TD cutmaster 102 and I love it. We also have a Miller 2050 and I have hated it for a while now. The Miller has always seemed to under perform and go through consumables very quickly.Using the TD 102, I cut (pierced) almost 100- 3/4"X 1-1/4" slots in 5/8 stainless with the same consumables.
Reply:so only the 65 have 3 sets which would make it more well rounded ?or does the 85 have that to ?will be doing alot of sheet metal some times worried the 85 will be to much most of the time. but will hate the smaller one when i have thich stuff to cut  Originally Posted by jimcoltThe Powermax65 has 3 sets of consumables: FineCuts for under 10 gauge cutting, 45 amps and 65 amp shielded sets. Each set of consumables is designed to produce its best energy density at its max amperage rating. Using a 65 amp nozzle at less than 65 amps effectively "softens" the arc, and produces worse edge angularity and more chance of dross. So....if you want best quality on 1/2" while cutting at 45 amps, you need to use the 45 amp nozzle. Here are pictures of some 1/2" steel parts cut with a Hypertherm Powermax45 on my PlasmaCam machine. If I ran a Powermax85 or 65 with the 45 amp consumables...the cuts would be the same.Interestingly....most low cost import plasma's only have one available consumable set for all thicknesses. Think about how the cut quality is affected as you cut thin materials vs thick materials.Jim Colt
Reply:The Powermax 85 has all the same consumables as the 65, plus a set for 85 amp cutting. Originally Posted by Bigrich954rrso only the 65 have 3 sets which would make it more well rounded ?or does the 85 have that to ?will be doing alot of sheet metal some times worried the 85 will be to much most of the time. but will hate the smaller one when i have thich stuff to cut
Reply:Originally Posted by DeveI read that. I run into that with other equipment too and I get pretty upset. The problem is, I am a one man automotive restoration shop. I cut 1/2" pretty regularly for tooling but mostly need it for sheet metal. Hypertherm is just too proud of their machines for my use. Keep those suggestions coming! Thanks
Reply:Originally Posted by wendellAs I see it:You either want a real plasma cutter or a chinesse trinket to play around with.  If you want a plasma, the guys in NH perfected it. If you want a trinket just pick the one that comes in your favorite color and know that it'll be in the land fill in a few years (if you're lucky).If my NH TD Cutmaster ever gives up the ghost I know what I'll replace it with.
Reply:Originally Posted by jimcoltThe Powermax65 has 3 sets of consumables: FineCuts for under 10 gauge cutting, 45 amps and 65 amp shielded sets. Each set of consumables is designed to produce its best energy density at its max amperage rating. Using a 65 amp nozzle at less than 65 amps effectively "softens" the arc, and produces worse edge angularity and more chance of dross. So....if you want best quality on 1/2" while cutting at 45 amps, you need to use the 45 amp nozzle. Here are pictures of some 1/2" steel parts cut with a Hypertherm Powermax45 on my PlasmaCam machine. If I ran a Powermax85 or 65 with the 45 amp consumables...the cuts would be the same.Interestingly....most low cost import plasma's only have one available consumable set for all thicknesses. Think about how the cut quality is affected as you cut thin materials vs thick materials.Jim Colt
Reply:Depends on the plasma system rating. If it is a Hypertherm and it is rated to pierce 5/8"....then you pierce at the pierce heigth recomendation listed in the cut charts in the manual, then index down to cut height (closer than pierce height) as soon as the pierce is complete. As soon as you index to the cut height...the torch then starts travelling on the lead in (a small length of cut in the scrap material inside of the hole), and on through the hole profile. A Powermax65 pierces 1/2" steel in about 6/10 of a second.If you pierce thicker than the plasma system is designed to pierce, or if you pierce at the incorrect height...you can destroy the nozzle (some call it a tip) on the very first pierce. A full function height control is necessary to pierce heavy material with good hole quality and good consumable parts life.If you need to pierce thicker than the plasma is designed for...you can either edge start....or drill a small hole and start on the edge of the hole. A Powermax65 can pierce 5/8" (with a height control) all day long. If you need to get through material between 5/8" and 1-1/2" with the 65, start on an edge.Jim Colt   Hypertherm Originally Posted by VPTI have always been curious of plasma cut holes in thick material. Do you just dive in with the plasma or do you drill a small hole first? Doesn't the metal blow out at you and all around for awhile till it blows threw the piece? Do you start in the middle of the hole till it blows threw than make the outer cut of the hole or do you just go in right at the edge and just cut the hole?
Reply:How is a esab 1250 machine?
Reply:I am a firm believer that hypertherm is the only way to go. After owning one I wouldn't use anything else.
Reply:Just to put things in perspective, I'm fairly new to welding.Is the life of the consumables related to the quality of the torch, the power supply or both? Could you put an HT torch on a no name power supply and achieve the same results or at least better than the no name p/s? How much does the characteristics of the power supply contribute to the life of the consumables and the quality and capacity of cut.
Reply:How do you guys rate the Miller 625?  The reason I can't do a Hypertherm right now is because I don't have the 220v and have been moving between locations/shop areas.  I really, really need 110v hook up for some sheetmetal cutting.Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Some plasma system suppliers will tell you that the torch is the only thing that affects consumable life and cut quality, others will say it is the power supply. Hypertherm will tell you that both torch and power supply are critical, and that they must be designed to work together.Power supply. To get the best performance out of the complete system....the power supply must produce a very pure DC output. Early plasma power supplies as well as many low cost power supplies (mostly imports) produce a fairly large amount of "ripple" on the output....a variation from a pure DC output. Pure DC allows the arc to stabilize and attach on the electrode.....ripple output will cause the arc to dance around on the electrode, causing rapid wear.Beginning of cut current ramps....early plasma systems as well as many current low cost plasma power supplies did not have good control of the starting current (amperage). The best technology power supplies use a multiple ramp up...that starts the pilot arc gently and at low current, then slowly ramps up (in about 20 to 100 milliseconds) to the full preset cut current. Older designs often overshoot the preset current momentarily....which instantly damages the torch nozzle orifice, better technology ramps slowly, gently and never overshoots current. The ramp profiles are different on better systems depending on the consumable set and amperage being used.....a FineCut nozzle design requires a radically different current ramp as compared to an 85 amp shielded set of consumables.End of cut Current ramp. Conversely, at the end of each cut cycle the better technology plasma's do not instantly cut off current, rather a ramp down of current and air pressure is accurately coordinated.....this coordinated ramp down helps to solidify the molten hafnium electrode emmiter, greatly increasing the electrodes life.Auto Air pressure control. Air flow in an air plasma torch is absolutely critical.....it is needed to cool the internal torch components and consumables.....and even more important, the exact flow and pressures must be maintained in order to create the high temperature ionized plasma jet. Too much pressure and the torch will double arc, too little and arcing will occur internally between the electrode and nozzle....both of which will rapidly wear the consumables. On high tech power supplies the air pressure is controlled with an electronic feedback loop.....air is adjusted automatically to compensate for different lead lengths, different nozzle sizes as well as to compensate for nozzle orifice erosion.Torch and Consumables.An air plasma torch produces an ionized gas arc in the temperature range of about 25,000 degrees F. Copper melts at close to 1000 degrees F. Think about that.....this arc is being forced through a tiny orifice in a copper nozzle. The nozzle orifice survives based on the level of gas flow physics that are engineered into the torch design.....these physics are based on known air flows and known electrical (amperage, pure DC, current ramp ups and ramp downs as well as critical on/off timing of the same) characteristics. The nozzle orifice does not melt because the air flow in the torch is swirling at a precise rate....slinging cool, un ionized (non conductive) gas molecules to the outside of the nozzle bore.....which insultaes and isolates the copper nozzle from the core temperature of the plasma arc. Change anything, air flow, air purity, amperage, swirl rate, etc.....and expect this critical balancing act to not operate as designed, and will shorten the life of the nozzle and electrode dramatically.  Further, changes in critical parameters...or dimensions / construction of the consumable parts will disrupt the laws of physics and will cause consumable and or torch body failures.....as is often the case when using aftermarket or copied consumable designs.Nozzles, shields. The nozzle in a plasma torch looks simple enough....and in older technology torches (including most low cost imports) they are simple designs...often copies of Hypertherm, Esab and Thermal Dynamics designe from 30 plus years ago. The latest technology, and I'll use Hypertherm's Duramax torch nozzles as an example...use the known accurate (auto airflow, current ramps) air and power output from the power supply to take full advantage of high temperature physics. The ionized arc is first constricted conventionally through the nozzle orifice, then the shield air is split off and routed through the retaining cap to the void between the shield and the outside shape of the nozzle....the conical shape forces this airflow to completely surround the plasma arc as it exits the nozzle orifice....further constricting the arc and increasing its energy density (a technology invented for Hypertherm's high definition plasma systems).....this provides for a narrower, straighter, more powerful arc while providing additional direct cooling to the outside of the nozzle. The result is longer nozzle life, straighter cut edges, narrower cut kerfs and faster cut speeds. If you doubt this....ask anyone that has upgraded from an older Hypertherm torch to the Duramax. This technology will not work as effectively if the Plasma power supply did not work in conjunction with the torch.Electrodes. The electrode is where the actual cutting power (negative) output of the power supply attaches. The end of an air electrode has an insert produced from the element hafnium. Hafnium is used because of it ability to emit electrons, however it is a poor thermal conductor. The bonding technique of the hafnium slug to the copper electrode core is absolutely critical in order to allow an air cooled torch to adequately sink the heat produced (around 3000 degrees F) away from the hafnium to increase electrode life. The bonding process of the hafnium is a proprietary technology and is protected by multiple patents. Further, the material used in the copper component of the electrode is critical as well....special copper blends are used on higher technology torch designs. The best technology air plasma systems use power supplies and torches and consumables that were designed to work together. When the equipment is properly designed and balanced you will see cut quality remain stable from the beginning of life (new set of consumables) until right at the end of life of these consumables. Older technology systems have a more linear consumable wear rate....meaning each consecutive cut part will show measurable effects of the rapidly eroding nozzle orifice, as well as the consumption of the electrode hafnium emitter.Sorry for the long winded answer. Could you get better results if you put a Duramax torch on another brand plasma....maybe, probably. But definitely not as good as you would get with the same torch on a power supply that was designed by the same team of engineers.Hope this helps to answer the original question!Jim Colt  Hypertherm Originally Posted by L98fieroJust to put things in perspective, I'm fairly new to welding.Is the life of the consumables related to the quality of the torch, the power supply or both? Could you put an HT torch on a no name power supply and achieve the same results or at least better than the no name p/s? How much does the characteristics of the power supply contribute to the life of the consumables and the quality and capacity of cut.
Reply:Thanks, Jim. I got the answers I was looking for and the justification for buying a complete unit, engineered to work together, as opposed to a mix of manufacturers and systems. Understanding more about the technology of the systems shows the advantages of a system like Hypertherm.