MM180 Auto Set - are they worse than my Handler 180, or is this one broken?

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I run a little welding program in a vocational school in rural West Africa. I have had a Handler 187 over here for five years, and it works great. We mostly run .030 E71T-11 flux cored wire through it, although occasionally some .035 as well. I have spend a lot of hours and gone through a lot of pounds of wire with it.A few years ago, we received a donated Millermatic 180 Auto Set. The Handler is in my shop and the Millermatic is in the student shop. I set it up for them, but then never spent much time using it. Over the last couple of years it hasn't gotten much use, the students are more used to stick, and prefer the Thunderbolts. I keep trying to get them to try it out, but they keep complaining that it's not working right. Thinking it was just that they weren't used to wire welding, I never paid much attention to their claims.Today I had them bring it over and I tried laying down some beads with it. I usually use Weldcote E71T-11, most frequently .030, which happens to be what I've got in my machine right now. The Miller happens to have Hobart E71T-11, .035. For some reason I don't like the Hobart quite as much, but the Miller is welding badly enough that I don't think it's only the wire difference.I know it's not helpful, but I can't exactly describe what's wrong with the Miller, but the arc feels sputtery - not at all smooth like the Handler. Both are being run from the same power source, in this case a big solar power system. When I set both machines on a similar setting (Tap 2 of 4 for the Handler and Voltage 4 of 8 or 9 on the MM, and wire speed 40 on the Handler, 35 on the MM because of the fatter wire), the Handler lays a beautiful bead. Scrub it and try to run the Miller over top, and it stubs 3 or 4 times before starting, and eventually gets going.I did this test, welding with the MM for a total of maybe 2 minutes in 5, at less than half of it's full power, and the over temp indicator comes on, trigger unresponsive. It's hot over here, I'll grant you, but I have run the Handler twice as hot for 2x as long and never once had it hit the thermal shutoff. I left the MM (on so the fan would cool it) and went to do something else, figuring in a minute it would be cool again. 30 minutes later, still the same. Power cycle the machine, and now it seems to be ready to work.At this point, given that it hit the thermal protection so quickly, I wondered if maybe the welder was not regulating correctly, and was just using full power all the time, regardless of the dial. I put a multimeter across the weld studs and recorded it while welding. In that setting (4 of 8 on the Miller, 2 of 4 on the Hobart), they were both in the 12-14v range while welding. So, it seems like it's putting out the power I'm asking for.I wish I could quantify better what I'm feeling when trying to weld with this machine - but it just isn't as cooperative or smooth as the Handler. I tried a new contact tip, thinking maybe that wasn't making good contact, but even with a brand new one, still the same thing.Any tricks to get this thing dialed in? I also have a MM Vintage that I (up until now) haven't had enough power to run. I'm hoping to get that all set up in the next week too - hoping that the experience with the 180 doesn't carry over to the bigger Vintage.Any help would be welcomed!
Reply:The MM180 has 2 functions that the HH187 does not- although they're supposed to be a bonus they do tend to throw off users.Run In Speed and Wire TrackingRun in is at the beginning of the arc start where the wire speed IS lower than the preset in order to assist with cold wire starts.So the MM 180 will definitely start differently than the HH187Wire speed tracking is where the wire speed increases or decreases as VOLTAGE control is increased or decreased in order to help the operator stay within the weld parameters when making voltage changes.Now this may not be the problem but try setting up the MM180 with that in mind and don't try to compare it to the way the HH187 begins and welds.I would start from scratch: take off the gun, remove the roll of wire and set it aside and then put it back together making sure the gun is seated completely, the polarity is set correctly for the Fluxcore and the drive roll tension is adjusted to the correct pressure.and of course it could be an internal electronics problem. Last edited by Broccoli1; 06-01-2016 at 05:49 PM.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:The Miller may not like your solar power supply, it has a lot of electronics to control the weld out put while the Hobart is a lot less complicated.I own a 187 and use a 180 auto set at my work overall I  feel the Hobart lays a nicer weld.Briggs weldnpower 225/210/cvLn-25 suitcaseMillermatic 130
Reply:I have a miller 252 and Hobart ironman and I think the Hobart welds better.
Reply:Maybe all the fancy stuff on a Miller is just smoke and mirrors.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1The MM180 has 2 functions that the HH187 does not- although they're supposed to be a bonus they do tend to throw off users.Run In Speed and Wire TrackingRun in is at the beginning of the arc start where the wire speed IS lower than the preset in order to assist with cold wire starts.So the MM 180 will definitely start differently than the HH187Wire speed tracking is where the wire speed increases or decreases as VOLTAGE control is increased or decreased in order to help the operator stay within the weld parameters when making voltage changes.Now this may not be the problem but try setting up the MM180 with that in mind and don't try to compare it to the way the HH187 begins and welds.I would start from scratch: take off the gun, remove the roll of wire and set it aside and then put it back together making sure the gun is seated completely, the polarity is set correctly for the Fluxcore and the drive roll tension is adjusted to the correct pressure.and of course it could be an internal electronics problem.
Reply:+1 Broccoli1 My first thought was spool and roller tension. The MM180 comes stock with "202 925" v-groove rolls... these are suppose to work with solid and flux-core wires. Normally flux-core runs best in knurled rolls. Try a set of "202 926" knurled v-groove rolls. The knurled rolls help get the flux core rolling without slipping. Are you detecting any slippage? Does it do the same if you attempt to run hard wire with shield gas?Here's a few more items to check from the troubleshooting section of the manual.https://www.millerwelds.com/files/ow...25311L_MIL.pdf
Reply:Ok, a few answers...1) Solar powerYes, I'm aware the solar power could be the culprit. However, a lot of things do work just fine on it, including:Old 300A 3ph Miller stick welder2 Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC'sHypertherm Pmax 1000Mill, lathes, grinders, drill presses, etc.I know most of those things are much lower tech - but the Hypertherm has even more circuitry and it works just fine (on my cnc plasma table, btw)My engine drive (Ranger 10000) is on a job site right now - once I get that back, I'll run them both from that and see if they behave any differently.2) Drive roll and tensionI am definitely using a knurled roll. I don't remember the part number, but it has one groove for .030 and .035, and then a second groove for .045, both knurled. I'm using it on the correct side, and the wire tension seems to me to be about right.3) Run-inInteresting to know the MM has that. Do you think the Hobart does too? It seems to me like the Miller is having more trouble with stubbing at the beginning, not less, as you'd expect with the run in feature.4) GunI've opened it up, and I think everything's fine. The unit has been here a few years, but was donated new and hasn't been used much. I guess I should try changing the liner to make sure it didn't get crimped during the trip over here. I suppose that would show a similar symptom - erratic feed. I'll check on that.It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly what's not right about the miller. I also have that MM Vintage (same as the 80's MM200) which I haven't used much yet. It has kind of the same feel as the MM180 (stubbing, unstable arc start). Maybe this is just Miller migs? I'm surprised, because I assumed Hobart and Miller were about the same thing with different paint and a few metal parts on the Miller where they're plastic on the Hobart.I'll have to try to get some videos of welding to try to show the difference. I suppose for completeness I should switch the MM to the same Weldcote .030 wire just to eliminate some variables, too.Thanks for the input so far.
Reply:Originally Posted by DanEd, The Millermatic 180 with auto-set doesn't have the wire speed tracking circuitry. The original MM 180 without Auto-set had the option of having the wire speed tracking ON or OFF.BTW, the HH 187 does have the wire speed tracking circuitry in it.
Reply:Ok, I spent an hour and did some more experimenting. I put the wire and contact tip on the Miller from the Hobart, no more unknown variables. What I found after some experimenting is that the MM can weld smoothly, but I can't make it start smoothly. For the first 1.5 seconds or so, it sputters, stubs, and complains, and then eventually will settle in to a nice buzzing puddle. I still don't know if that's its nature, or something is wrong.I was thinking more about the solar power system supplying it. Although I know that's not what everyone's used to, I'm ready to eliminate that as a possible source of the trouble. Here's why: the Hobart welds great from exactly the same supply. The way the Miller welds, it's as if it was on an engine drive that takes a few seconds to spin up from idle, like there's no power for the first second or two. However, I don't think that's the fault of the power system, because the Hobart works fine - and further more, that same power system supplies several single phase Thunderbolts as well as my big 3 phase 400A Miller DC stick welder - none of which have a problem with weak starts. So if the system can kick out enough juice to start big stick electrodes at 250A, it can't be blamed for the fact that .030 wire set for 18 gauge amounts of heat aren't starting right.If anyone has anything else to try, I'm all ears, but I'm ready to write this off as just a crappy welder. Too bad, it's the first bad Miller I've met.Here's my test runs on the corners of 18 ga 1" square tube. The Hobart welds these all day long with no trouble whatsoever. The starts were from the bottom side of the picture. You can see that they eventually settle in, and some of them end well. None start well though.By contrast, this is the kind of welds I'm used to in similar tube with that same .030 Weldcote E71-T11 wire on the Hobart.
Reply:Also, I'm not sure if I can edit the thread title (?), but I just realized the Hobart I have is a Handler 180, not 187. Don't know if that makes a difference to the comparative analysis vs. the Miller.
Reply:Just a quick thought, your ground cable,clamp and connections are all good?  My Lincoln MP210 acts that way at times and I've found grounding issues to be at fault. Sent from my iPad using TapatalkSteve1990 Miller Dialarc 2501993 Miller Maxstar 140 STR2015 Lincoln MP2101966 Lincoln SA200 Redface
Reply:I don't see polarity mentioned.
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPAtkinsAlso, I'm not sure if I can edit the thread title (?), but I just realized the Hobart I have is a Handler 180, not 187. Don't know if that makes a difference to the comparative analysis vs. the Miller.
Reply:Originally Posted by vwguy3I don't see polarity mentioned.
Reply:Originally Posted by SparkieJust a quick thought, your ground cable,clamp and connections are all good?  My Lincoln MP210 acts that way at times and I've found grounding issues to be at fault. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk