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i bought 6/3 i think i should of got 6/2 i just hooked white to ground in the panel and cut the ground wire short out of the way . is this ok to do ?
Reply:Are you wiring this for 120 or 240V? Either way you should hook up all three wires (either two "hot" wires and the ground for 240V, or one hot, the neutral and the ground for 120V).What exactly are you trying to do, wire the welder directly to the panel, or wire a receptacle to the panel?
Reply:Originally Posted by BigTBAre you wiring this for 120 or 240V? Either way you should hook up all three wires (either two "hot" wires and the ground for 240V, or one hot, the neutral and the ground for 120V).What exactly are you trying to do, wire the welder directly to the panel, or wire a receptacle to the panel?
Reply:Color the white wire green at the end. Then there is no doubt it is ground. Not sure if that is code compliant, but it's a warning to any sparky who works on it.Wire can be confusing the way it is called out. Especially between cable in the wall and cord. I prefer to call out the number of conductors and specify plus ground. Ground isn't a "conductor" except in a fault situation."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Wiring to a receptacle: only the current carrying conductors are counted, the ground wire is not counted in the numbering. 6/3 wire has 4-wires120v and straight 240v circuits only require 3-wires so you would buy X gauge/2 wireCORD- all wires are counted. 12/3, 8/3, 6/3 extension cords are 3-wire.Confoosed yet ? Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Waars are like tarrs. You need some, how minny ya wunt? 3 big ones and a skinny wun? 2 biguns? "USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Wiring to a receptacle: only the current carrying conductors are counted, the ground wire is not counted in the numbering. 6/3 wire has 4-wires120v and straight 240v circuits only require 3-wires so you would buy X gauge/2 wireCORD- all wires are counted. 12/3, 8/3, 6/3 extension cords are 3-wire.Confoosed yet ?
Reply:No neutral is used. The white wire is the one you want to eliminate. Because it is in the magnetic field of current carrying conductors, I would cap receptacle end, and terminate the other end on grounding buss. Somebody decided a long time ago that welders would use no center tap.WillieAn optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BNo neutral is used. The white wire is the one you want to eliminate. Because it is in the magnetic field of current carrying conductors, I would cap receptacle end, and terminate the other end on grounding buss. Somebody decided a long time ago that welders would use no center tap.Willie
Reply:Originally Posted by winginitYes the garage is mine. I already wired white to ground . And cut the bare ground short and tucked in back of the box. Thanks men
Reply:What Willie said. This is so simple to do correctly (since you already have everything run) that there is no excuse to keep it non-compliant and potentially get someone hurt down the road. It may not be a professional electrician looking at it next time. It could be a new homeowner, or maybe your nephew that comes over to help with house work when you're a geriatric.Also, for anyone reading this while researching, I would suggest always running conduit and THHN/THWN conductors if possible for outlets like this. When you use NM (non-metallic commonly called Romex) you have to de-rate the current to the lower temperature of the NM. It would unlikely be a make-it-or-break it deal (especially in the days of inverters!) but you may have to use a 5-10A smaller breaker when using NM. Not only that, conduit and THHN/THWN is cheaper if you buy from an electrical supply house. 6/3 NM is like $2.50/ft and THHN/THWN rated conductors are like $0.30/ft for 6 gauge and conduit is only a few bucks for an eight foot length.Outrunning my headlights since '81.
Reply:Originally Posted by Insaneride; when the ground is insulated with green insulation as in cord, its counted. The ground in ROMEX is not insulated and not counted..
Reply:If you plan to leave it as-is, at least tag the white with green tape or some other means of ID. Still not code, I know, but it at least makes it obvious to anyone looking that it's a ground, not a neutral . . . not that that would not be obvious to most, but it can't hurt . . . - Tim
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick FinstaWhat Willie said. This is so simple to do correctly (since you already have everything run) that there is no excuse to keep it non-compliant and potentially get someone hurt down the road. It may not be a professional electrician looking at it next time. It could be a new homeowner, or maybe your nephew that comes over to help with house work when you're a geriatric.Also, for anyone reading this while researching, I would suggest always running conduit and THHN/THWN conductors if possible for outlets like this. When you use NM (non-metallic commonly called Romex) you have to de-rate the current to the lower temperature of the NM. It would unlikely be a make-it-or-break it deal (especially in the days of inverters!) but you may have to use a 5-10A smaller breaker when using NM. Not only that, conduit and THHN/THWN is cheaper if you buy from an electrical supply house. 6/3 NM is like $2.50/ft and THHN/THWN rated conductors are like $0.30/ft for 6 gauge and conduit is only a few bucks for an eight foot length.
Reply:Reel your neck in.Romex is a brand name of NM which has several insulated conductors and often a bare ground covered by a non-metallic sheathing.THHN/THWN is single insulated conductors which are run through raceway/conduit. THWN is the wet-environment rated THHN.Use of NM often requires using a lower temperature rating than use of THHN/THWN and almost certainly will in a welding application. Read Article 334.80. There is, for instance, a 10A difference in ampacity for the same #6 run in THHN versus NM since you can use the 75* rating of the THHN (prior to derating for raceway capacity if needed) and you can only use the 60*C rating for the NM.Outrunning my headlights since '81.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick FinstaReel your neck in.Romex is a brand name of NM which has several insulated conductors and often a bare ground covered by a non-metallic sheathing.THHN/THWN is single insulated conductors which are run through raceway/conduit. THWN is the wet-environment rated THHN.Use of NM often requires using a lower temperature rating than use of THHN/THWN and almost certainly will in a welding application. Read Article 334.80. There is, for instance, a 10A difference in ampacity for the same #6 run in THHN versus NM since you can use the 75* rating of the THHN (prior to derating for raceway capacity if needed) and you can only use the 60*C rating for the NM.
Reply:Last time I got cord I ended up getting 4 wire as it was cheaper and gives you an option.
Reply:As it travels from city to city on big reels, the more versatile product is often more cost favorable. I've seen very little 250MCM aluminum URD. 350 is always cheaper. Often we get more conductors than we know what to do with. A welder extension can double as a home standby generator cable. WillieAn optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick FinstaReel your neck in.Romex is a brand name of NM which has several insulated conductors and often a bare ground covered by a non-metallic sheathing.THHN/THWN is single insulated conductors which are run through raceway/conduit. THWN is the wet-environment rated THHN.Use of NM often requires using a lower temperature rating than use of THHN/THWN and almost certainly will in a welding application. Read Article 334.80. There is, for instance, a 10A difference in ampacity for the same #6 run in THHN versus NM since you can use the 75* rating of the THHN (prior to derating for raceway capacity if needed) and you can only use the 60*C rating for the NM.
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideIm still not sure what your talking about but insulated ROMEX conductors are THHN. If your trying to say ROMEX is not THHN then your wrong and your statements are misleading. Please dont mislead the good folks here.Some of the THHN wire I used for my SA 200 are gas/oil and water rated. The yellow is ANNACONDA DENSSHIELD TW water and oil. The blue (ammeter?) is THHN gas/oil and water. It was a color coded wiring nightmare and reminded me of a bag of SKITTLES_.BTW, there is a THWN (water rated) ROMEX. Its also called direct burial. Try Gooooogle.
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideNot sure what your saying but ROMEX is THHN. Why would you de rate it? In fact, solid wire has a higher ampacity than stranded so winginit doesnt have to de rate a thing.winginit, your local hardware store carries green electrical tape. They make it and electricians use it for the same reason you would use it. If you wanted to.WillieB, copper isnt magnetic and the magnetic field is still so close to the white wire (less than 1/8") that your splitting hairs over using the white vs bare. Can you explain why you mentioned the magnetic field?BTW, although copper isnt magnetic , it may be possible to magnetize. I dont know about copper but plastic and aluminum are non magnetic and they can be magnetized. I still dont know what that has to do with the OP's wiring tho
Reply:A conductor in a building, and collapsing magnetic field will have induced in it voltage. In a cable where currents are balanced and opposed, theoretically the voltage will be zero. In reality there will be small voltage measureable. Grounding eliminates potential.WillieAn optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:The OP grounded his welder. So there is no potential from the magnetic field. Rite?The ROMEX in these parts are hi temperature. If you take a torch to them they dont burn. However, they do emit a gas. I believe teflon is used and its flouride gas. It will make your teeth white but kill you.WillieB, Im pretty sure Ive seen THHN on ROMEX in the past. Two days ago, I stripped some ROMEX with a date of April 20016. It didnt have the THHN stamp but it looks like the same stuf.I copied this statement from the link below."The wires inside a Romex cable are THHN wires along with a solid bare copper ground. Electrical contractors were running 2, 3 or 4 THHN wires at a time throughout a home or business to supply power throughout. Well manufacturers like Southwire created this Romex cable in order to save time for contractors."http://electrical-wire.blogspot.com/...cal-cable.htmlHeres from another link.The term "Romex®" is used to describe a multi THHN wire electrical cable.http://www.electricalwire.biz/Romex/..._2_vs_6_3.htmlI understand Romex® is a trade name as XEROX is to copies but thats what we call it in the West. And, it is THHN. The THWN Romex has a solid type sheath to prevent moisture buildup.Last edited by Insaneride; 06-11-2016 at 11:03 AM.
Reply:I will defend your right to be wrong. NM-B is not the same as THHN, unless it says so on the inner conductors, therefore is not acceptable in conduit. UF-B does not contain THWN as it has different properties. These (THHN & THWN) are designed to be slippery, and include an outer coating of clear thermoplastic. Should this outer coating get puckered, it serves to push the conductor away from conduit. In some cases NM-B has this coating but not always. NM-B is designed as a cable, and should not be used in conduit. In some cases AHJs will allow you to sleeve it in conduit to protect it from damage. An example is where it passes through a floor. I sleeve it when I can't drill floor joists in an unfinished basement. Emt needs to be supported only at yen foot intervals, and is allowed to run perpendicular to the underside of floor joists in unfinished basements and crawl spaces. There, both ends need fittings with approved bushings. My AHJ insists on NM fasteners within 3 inches of the end of conduit. I avoid more than one bend, never more than one cable per sleeve. Other electricians use short runs from the top of a breaker panel to bring NM-B down a wall neatly.WillieAn optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:One reason for the derate is cooling. In Romex, all conductors are tightly bundled with no airspace. In conduit, there is far more space and cooling capability, and thus more current is allowed. This is also the reason that minimum conduit sizes seem larger than necessary to those who don't understand all the issues . . . - TimLast edited by tadawson; 06-11-2016 at 02:17 PM.Where in code do you find the different ratings? 90 D Celcius is 90 D Celcius.WillieAn optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:True, but tight packed wiring will get there with less current than single conductors, thus the derate . . .- Tim
Reply:Originally Posted by tadawsonTrue, but tight packed wiring will get there with less current than single conductors, thus the derate . . .- Tim
Reply:Sorry, well documented . . . do a search, not my job to pull you through it . . . Hint: It's the reason the ratings for single conductor vs jacketed cable are different . . .
Reply:Table 310.15(B)(16) gives ampacities of cable, or insulated conductors in conduit. While it makes no mention of the specific product NM-B, It does mention conductors in cable. For sizes 18 - 10 circuit overcurrent sizing is specifically limited.334.80 specifically addresses NM cable, rating amperage as specified in 310.15. Using slightly different language, the same limitations of breaker rating while using the 90 degree rating of NM-B for calculation of de rate for multiple conductors, or passing through hot areas, or contact with thermal insulation. I can't think of a situation where AWG size changes whether using conduit, or cable. Bundled cable is derated in the same sense that conduit with more than three conductors is used. We once used a run of holes through floor joists as big as engineering allowed. In some cases there might be 40 cables in a bundle, mostly #12 fused at 20 amps, Now we drill a series of 14 7/8" holes through dozens of floor joists to place not more than 9 current carrying conductors in a cable bundle in compliance with code. I am confused that NM is referenced in current code as I believe it has been out of production since 1985. NM was 60 degree rated, where NM-B is 90 degree.If some fact of ampacity has escaped me in all these years of droning repetition in code education, please point it out. I use the same size conductor whether cable, or conduit.WillieAn optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by Insaneride solid wire has a higher ampacity than stranded
Reply:In some cases it's the other way around. Electrons travel more concentrated on the surface. Stranded copper pound for pound has more surface. At the voltage, and current we deal with the difference is so slight it doesn't matter. I think of oxidation. Oxide layer on copper is thin. A solid wire oxidizes much slower than stranded in the same environment. For harsh environments I favor solid.WillieAn optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by bentHuh? Care to back that up with a reference?
Reply:And 60 HZ power, in the big picture, it exceptionally low frequency - almost zero skin effect going on . . . - Tim
Reply:I'm pretty sure Willie B is correct. Romex around here is not allowed to be run in conduits. Some people do it...But it is not code compliant and every inspector around here will kick it back. Its just considered a no-no. Only THHn inside of conduit.
Reply:only single W rated wire can go in conduit in Connecticut, at least for my garage, each end of the conduit inside the house and garage is a 6in junction box and out goes romex to each panel. thats how i have it wired, Thanks |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:03:43