Need help identifying a bolt

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I need help identifying a bolt in a Water Turbine. It is a wicket gate turbine built by Rodney Hunt in the 30's as far as we know. The operating rods that move the louvers came loose and fell off due to corrosion on the bolt threads and I have to try to repair this mess. The bolt holes are badly deteriorated. I have one bolt in good enough shape to attempt to measure but I come up with 1 7/16-6 which is a non existent size. I think the bolt sizes were not standardized until the 40s so maybe this size doesnt exist anymore ? Also any ideas on how I could restore the bolt holes ? This is in a small confined space and we are not set up to do hot work in this environment. Attached ImagesLincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:This is a poor drawing by me of how it works. Basically all the bolts that held the rods to the turbine to move the wicket gates fell out. Attached ImagesLincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:The environment I am working in. Plant was built in 1895. Attached ImagesLincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Only thing I can see doing is boring it out and either retapping larger or going much larger and putting in an internal- external threaded sleeve. As for the bolt, probably needs to be custom made or modified from something readily available.
Reply:You can get 1+1/2 x 6 bolts from McMaster. Tap existing holes oversized and modify the McMaster bolts as needed for length, head style, etc. Tap runs about $210 @ McMaster.Dave66=================Millermatic 211 (Transformer Based)Primeweld TIG 225X
Reply:Are you sure it's not 1 3/8-6?  It looks like the calipers aren't closed all the way in your photo.
Reply:what a beatiful/well built/preserved building.   its sad we cant build that today.      i cant believe they just turned u guys loose on it like that.          id feel guilty doing what ur doing.      all them craftsmen are dead now.    they would roll over in there grave, if they could see u guys all teathered and diapered up like that ripping into there work, w/ foreign chinese digital junk as tools.     if i was in charge of that place, i'd kick u out tommorrow, or pay u to go away.        w/ all the bs laws today, there ought to be some kind of historic act, w/ guilines to follow - and i'm sure ur in violation of them.       first off, no china crap allowed.     2nd, id find ancestors of the craftsmen to do the work,      only starret vernier calipers/instruments  would be allowed, and that hammers wooden handle would have to be hand carved from a local tree.    3rd, the new bolts would have to be machined by the oldest manual flat belt lathe around.    and no OSHA allowed, or any  of that so called safety crap - that is actually a hazard itself, and prevents u from getting work done in a timely mannerLast edited by 123weld; 5 Days Ago at 11:19 PM.
Reply:Keep it broken for the historical value.I also do not change the oil in my truck for historical value, haha.
Reply:Drill them 1 27/64" and tap it out 1 1/2". If you get an old school machinist to remake the bolts for you out of stock you can have whatever threads you want cut on the lathe. Plenty of room there to drill them out 1 size bigger. Fastenal has several grades of taps and bits in different price ranges. E-bay has 20 taps that size for under $30. Just borrow one from a machine shop its only two holes you won't wear it out.Last edited by BMX Welder; 5 Days Ago at 12:21 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldwhat a beatiful/well built/preserved building.   its sad we cant build that today.      i cant believe they just turned u guys loose on it like that.          id feel guilty doing what ur doing.      all them craftsmen are dead now.    they would roll over in there grave, if they could see u guys all teathered and diapered up like that ripping into there work, w/ foreign chinese digital junk as tools.     if i was in charge of that place, i'd kick u out tommorrow, or pay u to go away.        w/ all the bs laws today, there ought to be some kind of historic act, w/ guilines to follow - and i'm sure ur in violation of them.       first off, no china crap allowed.     2nd, id find ancestors of the craftsmen to do the work,      only starret vernier calipers/instruments  would be allowed, and that hammers wooden handle would have to be hand carved from a local tree.    3rd, the new bolts would have to be machined by the oldest manual flat belt lathe around.    and no OSHA allowed, or any  of that so called safety crap - that is actually a hazard itself, and prevents u from getting work done in a timely manner
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldalittleAre you sure it's not 1 3/8-6?  It looks like the calipers aren't closed all the way in your photo.
Reply:Originally Posted by BMX WelderDrill them 1 27/64" and tap it out 1 1/2". If you get an old school machinist to remake the bolts for you out of stock you can have whatever threads you want cut on the lathe. Plenty of room there to drill them out 1 size bigger. Fastenal has several grades of taps and bits in different price ranges. E-bay has 20 taps that size for under $30. Just borrow one from a machine shop its only two holes you won't wear it out.
Reply:Hougen makes a real low profile drill but I believe it's only for annular cutters. You wouldn't be enlarging the hole by much. A plumbers right angle drill with a twist bit would work, not a lot of fun but doable.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DHougen makes a real low profile drill but I believe it's only for annular cutters. You wouldn't be enlarging the hole by much. A plumbers right angle drill with a twist bit would work, not a lot of fun but doable.
Reply:I have never done confined space welding and am not equipped to nor do my welding skills make me want to try but for those of you that can, Would the possibility of using a bolt with the head cut off or a piece of pin stock be something I could stick in the hole and they have welded in place or would that not be able to get sufficient weld to make it strong enough ? This is the other idea we were kicking around in case we cannot drill and re tap.How can I identify what the metal is where that hole is and if it can be welded to easily ?Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Is there any room on the backside to just use a shoulder bolt with extended threads and a locking nut? Or a conventional bolt with a bushing?
Reply:Well, I can't help myself. If this project was in my neck of the woods, I would just fix it. Plain and simple. And I understand that you want to fix it. I notice that you seem to be hung up on the 1 7/16 that you measure the old bolt to be. I also notice that your caliper is set to fractions. And I also notice that the hole the bolt came out of looks really bad.    The threads on the bolt are corroded, and it is a little difficult to say if your caliper reading is really giving you an accurate reading of what size the bolt was when new. There is a good possibility that your reading, right off the bat, will be undersized. Another thing to consider is the fact that if you measure a new bolt with a caliper it will read under the nominal size. In the equation is the resolution of your caliper when reading fractions. What is the smallest change it shows?    As has been said, both 1 1/2 and 1 7/16 have a 6 tpi. If the bolt has corroded and gotten smaller, the hole has corroded and gotten larger. To some extent. The rust and corrosion can "swell" to a greater or lesser degree. If it as you say, that no hot work as defined by lawyers is permitted, the very first thing I would try is to run an 1 1/2 inch taper tap in that hole, using an appropriately sized wrench. And a good cutting oil. At that point I would make an assessment of where to from there.    My experience has shown me that it often doesn't take much effort in a bad looking situation to make things start to look better. Very often a guy just has to start in and get to work in an intelligent manner, and soon the tide turns. So fix it!! I certainly wish you well! But if you can't, I can. But maybe not without some sparks!!
Reply:I agree with villageblacksmith's approach. In a perfect world (and presuming the 1+7/16 measurement is correct) running a 1+1/2 inch tap of the same thread pitch (6 tpi) should be easy. [Given the corrosion, maybe too easy - as in not enough there for 1+1/2 bolt]. But it should be easy enough to modify an off the shelf bolt as needed. Far cheaper than the outside repair outfit. Let us know how this turns out and you end up fixing this...Dave66=================Millermatic 211 (Transformer Based)Primeweld TIG 225X
Reply:[QUOTE=acesneights1;8824396]That would be the best course but there is only approx 15" of actual room to work. I have a mag drill with annular cutters but it won't fit. The drawing shows what Im working with but the forum file size limit wont let me upload. I have the original print.[/QUOTJust a short twist drill in a 1/2 drive hole hawg or right angle drill, your only enlarging the hole so many thousands. Then jig the tap up to a 3/4 drive ratchet that cast cuts like butter.
Reply:Originally Posted by acesneights1I don't want to be  in there but it's a long story. The OSHA stuff is law. Nothing here is worth dying for. There is millions of gallons of water on the other side of the stop gate. If we can't fix it, it will most likely be abandoned because the only company that works on these quoted us 120,000$ to fix it. I already saved them 9,000$ by going in there and cleaning it up and figuring out what needed to be done. They quoted us 9,000$ just to do that.
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldsounds like its on u  , lets make it work ace-n-8.     nevermind the measurements, order/buy some  3 diff size bolts, (there cheap considering), whatever  passes through and feels acceptable, - buy that tap.     then chase the threads.     end of story.   u bidded it.    u gave them what they asked.     realistically  the thing is 125 yrs old.     will this prpolong it another it to ur warranty/agreement?     probabaly so.     lookin at the current horizon/situation, how much longer will a  american biz  survive/be allowed to operate,  before an authoritarian dominbates?    i say make it work, and collect ur bid.  i wouldnt bore/retap, or take on any xtra liability, unleass absolute neccessary
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71Is there any room on the backside to just use a shoulder bolt with extended threads and a locking nut? Or a conventional bolt with a bushing?
Reply:I'm gonna take the bolt to fastenal on Monday. They said they would measure it. I am pretty sure I am measuring it right . The broken eyelet end from the operating rod is same size and the bolt fits that hole tight. Problem is no one stocks 1 1/2 or 1 3/8 bolts and if I have to order it in which maybe what I need to do.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:This would be the correct tap for a closed hole right ? I can't get an annular cutter for the tap size, only a twist drill but the hole may be worn enough.https://www.mcmaster.com/2521A857/Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:This looks to be correct cutter.https://www.mcmaster.com/annular-cut...-size~1-1-2-6/Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal WaterOriginally Posted by acesneights1This would be the correct tap for a closed hole right ? I can't get an annular cutter for the tap size, only a twist drill but the hole may be worn enough.https://www.mcmaster.com/2521A857/
Reply:A bottoming tap is used in a closed hole, but only after most of the threads have been cut with a taper tap. The threads then are finished to the bottom of the closed hole with the bottoming tap. Sent from my E6810 using http://tiny.cc/Forums_reader
Reply:With a closed bottom hole, you typically start with a taper tap until it bottoms out, then switch to a bottoming tap (like the one in the link you provided). The reason is it is very hard to start a bottoming tap - high risk of breaking the tap. The existing threads may allow you to use just a bottoming tap, but if it were me, I'd get both the taper tap and bottoming tap. I'd love to hear what approach others on hear would take. Moth things I deal with are in the range of 1/4" thru 1". Occasionally we get above 1" bolt diameter, but that is maybe once every three years.Dave66=================Millermatic 211 (Transformer Based)Primeweld TIG 225X
Reply:Originally Posted by acesneights1I'm the Plant Mechanic here so they are putting alot of pressure on me to save the day. I'm willing to try, but  i also accept that somethings are beyond my skill set. Any idea what metal this could be made of ? I mean like cast steel, cast iron ? I'm not sure what I am looking at with this thing.
Reply:Your making a mountain out of a mole hill. Most likely ductile iron given the age and since that's what is still used in the application, threads like cutting cheese. No you don't need a tapered tap that would be for pipe thread NPT. You need a standard bolt thread tap and a bottoming tap to finish if the hole is blind. Any old school machine shop can make that rod and press bronze bearings in the ends in a few hours. I would Imagine one end is left hand thread so the length can be adjusted without removing the end bolts. Where talking 160 year old tech on a 120 year old part and we are stumped with all the tech we have at our disposal? I'm a junior in welding school and machine shop is right next to us one of the first lessons learned is making threads, no big deal. Public water supply, don't you have a public tech school? Let the kids fix it for you.  Use your resources, your not in the outback or the himalayas. 1 1/2 is not that big any decent machine shop has those taps. drilling company's, big logger, sawmills all have machine shops. Your in Connecticut right, how far could you possibly be from a ship yard and ship yard supply? They go through taps like toilet paper.
Reply:Originally Posted by BMX WelderYour making a mountain out of a mole hill. Most likely ductile iron given the age and since that's what is still used in the application, threads like cutting cheese. No you don't need a tapered tap that would be for pipe thread NPT. You need a standard bolt thread tap and a bottoming tap to finish if the hole is blind. Any old school machine shop can make that rod and press bronze bearings in the ends in a few hours. I would Imagine one end is left hand thread so the length can be adjusted without removing the end bolts. Where talking 160 year old tech on a 120 year old part and we are stumped with all the tech we have at our disposal? I'm a junior in welding school and machine shop is right next to us one of the first lessons learned is making threads, no big deal. Public water supply, don't you have a public tech school? Let the kids fix it for you.  Use your resources, your not in the outback or the himalayas. 1 1/2 is not that big any decent machine shop has those taps. drilling company's, big logger, sawmills all have machine shops. Your in Connecticut right, how far could you possibly be from a ship yard and ship yard supply? They go through taps like toilet paper.
Reply:If the information from the OP about the origins of the turbine is accurate, it is most definitely not ductile iron since ductile was not developed until the 1940's. Might be malleable but is more likely gray iron. Either way the original iron would have tapped  easily, how it will respond now is yet to be seen. It seems to me that it is more likely to have been 1-1/2 or 1-7/16 than anything smaller. Those old guys liked the 1/16 sizes for some reason. I would dry it as much as possible and judiciously sandblast it to clean as much rust out of the hole as possible (as rust will damage the tap) while preserving as much original thread as possible. If the knuckle will take 1-1/2, run a 1-1/2 tap in the hole and access how good a thread you have. Is that a set screw on the bottom that locked the bolt in ?---Meltedmetal
Reply:OK, so took the best salvageable bolt to Fastenal today. a 1 1/2' nut fit the bolt fairly well so it is 1 1/2' already. Of course that now means I can't drill and tap to that size. I'm going back in the turbine on Wednesday to try the good bolt in the hole and see how loose it is and if it's worth trying o chase the existing threads. what is everyone's thoughts and using a stud in the hole if it's too loose to have a bolt hold and then welding the stud around to the wheel ? We would have to call in a pro for that as we are not equipped to do confined space hot work . Th only other option I could see would be trying to helicoil it. they do make them that big.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Originally Posted by acesneights1OK, so took the best salvageable bolt to Fastenal today. a 1 1/2' nut fit the bolt fairly well so it is 1 1/2' already. Of course that now means I can't drill and tap to that size. I'm going back in the turbine on Wednesday to try the good bolt in the hole and see how loose it is and if it's worth trying o chase the existing threads. what is everyone's thoughts and using a stud in the hole if it's too loose to have a bolt hold and then welding the stud around to the wheel ? We would have to call in a pro for that as we are not equipped to do confined space hot work . Th only other option I could see would be trying to helicoil it. they do make them that big.
Reply:You have been getting some good pointers on your project. I don't remember right now if someone else suggested this or not - but what are the chances you could drill all the way through and insert a bolt from the back side. What would be the result of that. A little water leaking around the bolt maybe? To continue with that approach, one could weld a tab, let's say 3/8 x 2 six inches long to the bolt head. Before you weld it on, drill two 1/2 inch holes in the tab, maybe 3 inches apart. From the inside, slip the bolt in the hole, mark where the two 1/2 inch holes are, pull it back out, drill and tap for two 1/2 inch bolts into the wall of the machine, then slip the 1 1/2 inch bolt back in the hole, securing it in place with the two 1/2 inch bolts in the strap that is welded to the big bolt. This will hold it in place and prevent it from turning when tightening the nut.Just another " outside the box" suggestion for this or another situation. You could also drill a 1 1/2 inch hole in a 6 x 6 x 1/4 plate, drop the bolt through it, weld the head to it and put two holes in the corners to secure it with the 1/2 inch bolts in the turbine. Sent from my E6810 using http://tiny.cc/Forums_reader