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OK. I know this question has been asked a thousand times but, some of us have different welders than others.I called two welder supply stores this morning in OKC and called a electrician. None knew definitively what breaker I need in my main panel or which size wire to run to the outlet in my garage. They all said "probably" or you'd be OK with". I don't want someone to "guess". Why's that so hard to understand?I have a Lincoln 180C, 220 welder. I want a dedicated circuit. NOT run off my dryer plug. The outlet box in the garage from the main panel will be 10 feet. Then I'm going to run a 25 foot extension cord, 6awg. (because that is what I have) to the welder.Let the games begin!
Last edited by grumpy RN; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:54 PM.
Reply:What does the nomenclature plate on the back of the welder say?Airco Auto-Pak 130Forney 235AC/DC
Reply:That's not a very big welder, just run a #6 wire and be done with it, it's not a real puzzle, you just need 10 ft. Go to home depot and get 10ft of wire and throw it in, Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
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Reply:
Originally Posted by MetalMan23
That's not a very big welder, just run a #6 wire and be done with it, it's not a real puzzle, you just need 10 ft. Go to home depot and get 10ft of wire and throw it in, Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Reply:No way that welder will ever need 50amps, probably could use #8 wire or #10, just wire it in, and if it trips, well get bigger wire.This is not a complicated thing. Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
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Reply:We all know bigger is better
. Do it once and be done. I’m a firm believer in using a 50a circuit for any 220v welding equipment with the exception of some of the older stick welders etc. OP might upgrade to a bigger machine or buy a decent air compressor, plasma cutter etc etc etc.Lincoln, ESAB, Thermal Dynamics, Victor, Miller, Dewalt, Makita, Kalamzoo. Hand tools, power tools, welding and cutting tools.
Reply:The Nomenclature plate on the back of the welder should tell you the required max amp draw of the machine. Take that number, oversize the breaker by 25%, size the wire to the breaker.It's not complicated to properly size an electrical circuit, but you can't just pull the numbers out of your a**, you need to start with the rated draw of your equipment you are wiring ing.Airco Auto-Pak 130Forney 235AC/DC
Reply:Ampacity figures from Cerrowire. For dedicated welder duty, you could get away with smaller wire, or a slightly higher breaker rating. I'd use a 30, 40 or 50 amp breaker and size the wire accordingly.
Last edited by Oldendum; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:01 PM."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:If it is only 10 feet you are best to just put in a solid feed. Run #6 on a 40 or 50 amp breaker with a 6-50R receptacle. You will not have problems.
Reply:I believe the legal minimum is about 75 ft of 12 in pipe and a 50 breaker. No one does that, me included. But itss worth noting to get some realistic idea of what the circuit demand is. I would use any free wire I had 10 or better. its 7 times shorter and a size larger than the listed minimum which is sufficient and safe to run it. I believe that machine was sized at 220V, mine is 245, draws about 4A less than its rated. Its not long, wont cost much to put a heavier wire in but the operator wont be able to tell a difference.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Sheet, that is inverter,,, the old ones ran 10 but that is a legal 12 cable 30 breaker unit if you want.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Lincoln 180C>>>>>>https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en>>>>>
Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:20 amps min, 30 cost nothing or next to nothing more. go a 30 amp breaker and your wire that you have. You won't trip and should be able to upgrade your welder once without rewiring.I haven't built anything I can't throw away. Perfection is the journey. Mac
Reply:Thats even less than a tranny 200 class compact mig.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Your answer comes from the electric codes.Wire is downsized based on your effective amps and your duty cycle.Use the breaker size the book gives for your welder.
630.11 Ampacity of Supply Conductors.The ampacity of conductors for arc welders shall be in accordance with 630.11(A) and (B).(A) Individual Welders. The ampacity of the supply conductors shall be not less than the I1eff value on the rating plate. Alternatively, if the I1eff is not given, the ampacity of the supply conductors shall not be less than the current value determined by multiplying the rated primary current in amperes given on the welder rating plate by the factor shown in Table 630.11(A) based on the duty cycle of the welder.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:It written in some electrical books for stick welders.The best time delay fuses for stick welders. Mig you can use a breakers but still better to use delay fuses.I use a breaker for my mig welder and have not had any problems. If flip a breakers a lots switch to delay fuses the same size. The delay fuse has for 5 to 20 seconds of overload by 3X to 5X the rating of fuse time given to start your weld.Dave
Originally Posted by grumpy RN
OK. I know this question has been asked a thousand times but, some of us have different welders than others.I called two welder supply stores this morning in OKC and called a electrician. None knew definitively what breaker I need in my main panel or which size wire to run to the outlet in my garage. They all said "probably" or you'd be OK with". I don't want someone to "guess". Why's that so hard to understand?I have a Lincoln 180C, 220 welder. I want a dedicated circuit. NOT run off my dryer plug. The outlet box in the garage from the main panel will be 10 feet. Then I'm going to run a 25 foot extension cord, 6awg. (because that is what I have) to the welder.Let the games begin!
Reply:Whie the 6 extension is ok personally would be getting 30 ft of 12 for this. Ready made welder extensions are number 8 and I see new ones now offered in 10 but 12 adequate on this machine and legal to install 50 ends on it. The new dvi in this class even come 14 cord but require the special adapter to use on 50 circuits. Using all bigger doesnt hurt anything other than expense and handling but after we get to a size bigger than the minimums doesnt help much either.Last edited by Sberry; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:42 AM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:As a side note, some of these machines rated at 208 even with same wire, incoming today is almost all above 240, not only will the machine tolerate 5% V drop we like to generally see but will handle near 20%,,, 40 volts and still work. But,,, a fussy operator can tell the difference a bit at about 10% or so maybe if he is aware and might adjust the machine. Having said that,,, before we get in a knot,,, no one is advocating it, its just to get an idea thaqt a guy doesnt need to be shook up and go in to panic if he sees a welder outlet doesnt have a number 6 wire on it. It doesnt surprise me every guy at the dealer isnt real familiar with input wire, so much hearsay and so little real explanation, so many one line answers that they dont know and they never been to a real class or had it adequately splained. We get that here,,,, my electrician bud said,,,, well, either he splain it wrong or you understand it wrong. Had a cousin instasll a panel recently, I look it over and sheet, had grounds wrong and floating can along with some feeders not grounded. He says,,, my fieid the lic guy says,,, and I got to stop him and say,,, he is a master,,,, I believe he really knows but you didnt fully understand, he come back a week later with a little better concept and blessing from the master for the corrections I made.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:None of this matters. He doesn't need to skimp for any reason. We all get and can see what it draws( around 20 amps) and what is the minimum wire you could use but at the end of the day you are permanently installing a outlet that will be there for the life of the structure. Just makes sense to make it a decent circuit capable of delivering the entire 50 amps that it is. For now for this machine the 40 amp breaker may offer some faster trip if something was to go awry but myself I would go 50 amp and be done. 25 feet of #6 extension that he already owns is not that much to handle. He has a #6 extension cord already. The 50 amp plug is same no matter what amp you feed it.A 2 pole breaker pretty much the same price for 20 through a 50 amp. It calls for a 40 amp breaker in manual. 10 feet of #6 instead of something less is minimal price difference. $50 approx for number #6So the little cost to run #6's 10 feet is the wisest thing to do here I am pretty sure. You aren't going to save jack by feeding your welder that is asking for a 40 amp breaker versus just feeding the 50amp outlet your using it's full 50 amp potential.I personally prefer stranded wire for larger 50 amp outlets/breakers/circuits. Unless you get at least #8 your getting solid wire if running it in Romex. Now if the idea was specifically try to feed this 180C for as cheaply as humanly possible then yes run a #10 or something less and save $25 on the job.Last edited by danielplace; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:03 AM.
Reply:Another case recent. They were ? ing a circuit and started with the what if they plug this range in and there happened to be range and welder near, I point at the plugs,,, ah ha,,, different, both 50 but different requirements to the type of outlet. Why this matters. While short answers are correct and safe normally it doesnt help understanding of basic circuit design. The welder circuit and its allowables including its cord and end right up to the switch and beyond utilize many of the fundamentals of basic circuit design both 2 and within the equipment. Same for constitutional amendments, easy to read 1 small part out of some context and think thats all there is to it. While the breaker is designed, intended to be able to protect an incoming wire for thermal it rarely does, mostly a factor in general circuits with multiple outlets, the part B is magnetic for fault protection. The breaker sizing involves as much or more (for lack of better words, feel free to elaborate) but its designed to let sufficient current PASS as well as limit. We only delve here a bit on control wiring and design, we got enough trouble with a simple circuit sometimes but many internals of machines especially old welders and comps depend on correct circuit breaker for adequate use as well as protection. Look at the modern 150 inverter4, will run 1/8 lo hy on a 20A 240 breaker and nearly run it from 120 20 and will from 120/30 but comes with a common welder end allows the end user to simply plug it in to an existing 50A circuit. This is a bit why there is a little caution about converted dryer outlets and some adapters. Only a couple truely legal, 14/50 to 6-50 and 14/50 to TT30 and none legal from 50 to 20,,, doesnt matter if it can be found, it aint right, allows something with a 20 cord not rated to be plugged in to a 50 circuit, same for those cheap things go from TT30 to 15, 15 to 30 leagal but not to let 15 tools be plugged on to 30,,, they are listed to be plugged to 20 by plug design. This is why we dont simply allow multiple welder outlets on larger circuits, sure you can use number 4 and 80 breaker and wont overheat the wire,,, I have heard this proposed and endorsed as a good idea but now we might as well connect this toaster to 100 main. The very thing all the schoolin and lic tries to insure against can get an atta boy and 3 or 4 make it sound like a good idea and any electrician doesnt stomp on that idea right away is doing the forums a great diservice. Once a guy learns a little legit "why" behind it he can better do the right thing,,, this also includes the code allowances and standards. They even caution in the book, safe for people and property not to be used as a total design for best operation,,,, that is case aplipicable but also doesnt mean that some fundamentals of wire size are inadequate cause they are code minimums,,, in other words if they are so poor why do we e4ven bother with calcs and charts and standards, why dont we say,,,, look at it and double or 3x it? Do some of you use a couple above 4/0 for every 200 service but yet insist every welder ciurcuit not only needs double but in some case 4 sizes bigger? If this an issue for what iff scenerios somehow its not been adressed as a code concern or cause of millions of fires,,, or even a few for nearly 100 years now or shortly anyway. Now we are not really adding load with welders, especially in small and diy we are using 1/2 and less. This thinking remains in old diy plumbers think a bigger pipe is the answer to everything and cant really grasp ,,,, "i run 3/4 to every bathroom faucet cause I need so much pressure,,, doesnt occur that that 40 yr old line will now support 4 low flow where it struggled with flushes in days of old etc. The goal or it all isnt to use as much as it can but to be adequate for demand.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Someday we can recycle millions of # of copper been parked in walls with no load and never utilized,,, put there "just in case" a case I can never recall being an actual problem, not a time I can remember right off wishing I would have 3x upsized or added 2 extra pipes, almost all obsolete or remodeled,,, or still in service. Never had a case I ran 2 alum, had a 60 trip it or say,,, dam should have ran 2/0 in case I wanted to put a 300 tig in the shower house or outbuilding. I design ahead and got 20 space full in my storage and in the end could supply the load with an extension cord on 120. Should have used 2 circuits and left most of the pipe empty. Wouldnt even had to switch the lights local, few modern fixtures and could have lit it with 1 when needed.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Nominal voltage has went up 20+ points sinece they code size wire and since they size the requirements for an AC buzzer which next to a 250 feeder is the biggest draw on fac cord and plug machines. What if,,,,, my dumb *** comes along and wires my 300 tig to it,,, for 1 will trip the breaker with 12 and second,,, its why in the manual they suggest one seeks qualified help. If a guy tapes or wires the breaker open then its pointless. Its why we suggest changing recepts on some of it instead of cord ends, one would verify that the dryer wire not to put a 10/50 on for a pottery kiln instead of changing the end and assuming its then fair game to plug in to a welder outlet,,, it might be but real installer would verify the wire and the applied load even but 10=50 and 14 50 have no allowance for smaller wire. Neither do any of the 30 configs. This doesnt mean you cant plug a smaller wire in to it but needs to be designed for it. Such as the buzzer, 12 cord, 50 end. Lots of equipment in wood working, 14 cord, 30 end, allowed on 30 circuit. They did that on a nuke I was on,,,, all 10 cord with 30 twist, hundreds of outlets and cords and 2 way,Y, all the grinding was air but rod ovens and lights 120, adapters for 100 watt lamps to those by the hundreds, strings of them. Someone must have calculated how many men, all kinds of stuff, never saw a trip. But no real plug in user equipment though, I spose maybe a drill on occasion, mag drill or something like that but it was rare. There wer hangers in halways and from ceilings with just gobs of air hose, welding leads and yellow light cord. They had hrdrand systems on every floor of aux building sort of but we pretty much found a lead or a hose and T on it or hook and see what polarity was on. Despite it being a bundle often had no idea where it was sourced even had a supply problem or low air pressure from too many long hoses, never. They used a hi vol fitting even then but there could be section hoses connected who even knows back to where it was plugged in. Other day put a T in air line and 2 da sanders on after 50 ft reel, had one automotive connector feeding it, didnt slow either unit down a lick but ask about it and get 10 opinions on why it wont work and gonna lose so much power you cant use it. I was going to run another hose then said, wonder, the reality different than the opinion.
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Last edited by Sberry; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:19 AM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Earth to Sberry.The ONLY downside of running the #6 wire is a few dollars to have it all match the outlets ampacity is such a small price on 10 feet of wire. All this non-sense over the price difference of one 10 foot piece of wire. OMG !!! Blah blah blah. Cheap a$$$ !!!! It's all I can come up with. Your being ridiculous every thread trying to convince someone to always put the lightest wire they can possibly get away with. It is not how everyone thinks about it. I will give you a real life example. If you need pictures I got those. Lol.My welder outlet is right under my panel and my Dynasty 280 only needs 33 amps but I have never been sorry I ran #6 wire and put it on a 50 amp breaker. Haven't lost any sleep over the huge amounts of money I wasted on a 6 foot piece of 6-2. 4/0 would have had me sleeping even sounder. LMAO !!!!! I am going to learn to not get in these "what wire do I need ? " threads and let you handle them all. You'll have them feeding their chit with 18-2 bell wire before long. You don't need a fuse. The wire can be your fuse. Lol.Aside from it being dedicated for a particular welder the installation would not meet code anywhere. So if someone were to sell and a home inspector called it out you would have to remove a 50 amp plug that may have been the only reason the guy was gonna buy the place. Ah finally a welding outlet but inspector says it is not to code and he would be 100% correct. Now what ? They going to call you to explain how it is just frigging fine and he don't know what he is talking about.Last edited by danielplace; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:20 PM.
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
Earth to Sberry.The ONLY downside of running the #6 wire is a few dollars to have it all match the outlets ampacity is such a small price on 10 feet of wire. All this non-sense over the price difference of one 10 foot piece of wire. OMG !!! Blah blah blah. Cheap a$$$ !!!! It's all I can come up with. Your being ridiculous every thread trying to convince someone to always put the lightest wire they can possibly get away with. It is not how everyone thinks about it. I will give you a real life example. If you need pictures I got those. Lol.My welder outlet is right under my panel and my Dynasty 280 only needs 33 amps but I have never been sorry I ran #6 wire and put it on a 50 amp breaker. Haven't lost any sleep over the huge amounts of money I wasted on a 6 foot piece of 6-2. 4/0 would have had me sleeping even sounder. LMAO !!!!! I am going to learn to not get in these "what wire do I need ? " threads and let you handle them all. You'll have them feeding their chit with 18-2 bell wire before long. You don't need a fuse. The wire can be your fuse. Lol.Aside from it being dedicated for a particular welder the installation would not meet code anywhere. So if someone were to sell and a home inspector called it out you would have to remove a 50 amp plug that may have been the only reason the guy was gonna buy the place. Ah finally a welding outlet but inspector says it is not to code and he would be 100% correct. Now what ? They going to call you to explain how it is just frigging fine and he don't know what he is talking about.
Reply:This whole thread is worthless Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by MetalMan23
This whole thread is worthless
Reply:Nominal voltage has went up 20+ points sinece they code size wire and since they size the requirements for an AC buzzer which next to a 250 feeder is the biggest draw on fac cord and plug machines. What if,,,,, my dumb *** comes along and wires my 300 tig to it,,, for 1 will trip the breaker with 12 and second,,, its why in the manual they suggest one seeks qualified help. If a guy tapes or wires the breaker open then its pointless. Its why we suggest changing recepts on some of it instead of cord ends, one would verify that the dryer wire not to put a 10/50 on for a pottery kiln instead of changing the end and assuming its then fair game to plug in to a welder outlet,,, it might be but real installer would verify the wire and the applied load even but 10=50 and 14 50 have no allowance for smaller wire. Neither do any of the 30 configs. This doesnt mean you cant plug a smaller wire in to it but needs to be designed for it.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Danial,,, I actually recall a thread where it was suggested a guy put a 50 on a home brew parts washer to the freakin car charger outlet. mIthere was even a quote that suggested that 18 wire would be fine on it and it wasnt me who said it. What I do advocate is some where in between. Thruth be known the dryer wire converted to the 6 50 would be fine, got to wonder why the code geniuses havnt changed all this and why they bother writing it all in the manuals and why apprenticeship is several years if the dumb answer is 6 to everything. This is even more value today with the advent of new machines. Now,,, I can even say,,,, there is nothing wrong with a 6 and its great if you got it but you are allowed to use a 12,,, you oinly7 read 1 part of that statement. Be different if I advocate that exclusively or it was not code legal and mfg listed then it be a different matter but simply hate that 1 note song about it. I know a couple sparky welder types been running maxes now for decades 100 ft 12 cord. Aint burned it down yet.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:This whole thread is worthless
Reply:Put in a wire, plug in a breaker, start to weld, easy. No thread needed, the guy even said "Let the games begin" he knows what he's doingSent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
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Reply:I didnt wire to the actual minimum. That was 14, in pipe and that doesnt meet the termination on the recept, its listed 12 but one machine allows 48 ft 14 and the other 63 so I split 100 ft 12. Would have been legal with other wires in pipe at 12. A guy doesnt have to use 1 circuit for every machine he owns, its almost automatic for me to create a home for a new machine with its own outlet, I am not going to play musical plugs for long. I bring home a tool is going to need some power its going to get a proper circuit. I run all my 30s 10, as you said, all fits better and more secure and although could have the breaker converted never had to as already have circuits for that. Do have a couple 10/50, 2 ft long, after its suffecient to serve the load the rest is irrelevent and most is parked most of the time.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:It seems converting a circuit with oversized wire up to the next breaker worked, no surprise but is not proof it wouldnt have worked either way. In fact converting dryer to welder is actually a pretty good welding circuit. A couple times have made temp with older 3 conductor dryer wire and even 10/2, having said that for the reading impaired nothing wrong if a guy wants to use range wire either, allowed to go bigger, doesnt hurt and allow something prolly not sposed to be hooking to it thru a 50 plug anyway.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:What inspires me a little is the comment that I say 12 is the smallest can be allowed and then someone comes along and suggests I will be recommending 18 next week kind of says it all. I see on another forum, poor guy spends 3 large or more on credit at the snappy truck for a 20A machine and then starts to 'research" wire from the forum with all piling on and comes to the conclusion that he has to be within 1% voltage drop at 50 cause it comes 50 end, gonna start saving now for wire. Its a LONG circuit, all 43 ft of it but half a dozen guys splain to him in case of this or that and he will be way more handsome and somehow richer if he holds out for that 6 wire instead of using 50 ft he has left over for something and putting a 30 on it and use the thing. We had a couple cases here where diy came to some great conclusions about some wire size,,,,was in lead but always someone got to come along with an opinion on how they would do it and cause confusion and delay to a guy who had done an excelent job of circuit design. He even says,,, he will do what it takes to be safe but doesnt need to simply thro cash at it either,,, easy guy to educate.Last edited by Sberry; 3 Weeks Ago at 05:18 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Mention a 120V machine and extension cord and the same thing. Even seen this.. guy comes along says, my mil has a weed whacker and hedge trimmer B&D stuff and needs a cord. Was suggested she go to the wholesale house and buy 100 ft of 12 SO and some ends. As fuggin dumb as that sounds would be surprised it took over a dozen responses with atta boy before a sparky come along and says go down to Menards and buy a modest cord she can carry. Hard concept to understand how a guy can cut a 2/4 or rip a roof sheet with 100 ft of cord on a circ saw, just cant be done, no way no how and I would fire any contractor type he saw doing that. You know why,,,, cause 1 time he seen a guy with a 3 way and air comp on a 16 cord along with the radios and some other shat and burned it up. Seems a bit different scenerio one would think but,,, no,,, its all the same.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Broccoli1
Lincoln 180C>>>>>>https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en>>>>>Attachment 1742857
Reply:
Originally Posted by scsmith42
@grumpy RN, per the owners manual kindly posted by Broccoli and Daniel, you need a 40A 240VAC breaker, which means that it's a good idea to size your wiring to the breaker. As others have recommended, many pieces of welding equipment are designed for a 50A receptacle. Depending upon the insulation, 8 gauge wire is rated for 50amps of current, so if it were me I'd install a 50A receptacle, breaker and run 8 gauge wire. There are provisions in code that allow a welding machine to use smaller wire than for other types of loads, but the extra cost to run a heavier wire is negligible and if you ever want to acquire a plasma cutter or larger welder you will already be wired for it.
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
https://conqelectric.com/what-size-w...0-amp-breaker/
Reply:
Originally Posted by bigb
OP is in Texas and under NEC not CEC, #6 NM or #8 THWN/THWN-2 in pipe for 50 amps (copper).
Reply:It does under many conditions but here is one.. Imagine you are wiring up an air conditioner and the instructions say 20A circuit 40 breraker/ Piping it, homeowner panics and runs out with a book that he found and starts screaming it must be number 8 wire cause its got a 40. Who would be the first guy to try to prove it doesnt? You couldnt wait,,, wouild be foaming at the mouth to set him straight. Like I said to start, difference between what people do and what the requirement by the mfg and the code say for this installation. All the rest of this is opinion and often when spending someone elses money. I am sure when bidding we all upsize every circuit a couple just in case. As I mention, (its easy to miss that if you only read the parts you want) I dont use the minimum on these circuits either but I dont panic if its not a 6 wire on them all. AC buzzer is one of the greediest machines, allows 48A load, 50 breaker on a 12 wire. At 75 ft. Millions of legal circuits installed over decades for them by lic masters with 10 cable to 50 fuses. Now one would think,,, decades of this,,, if all the what ifs we read at every turn here were a problem they would simply do away with this and simply call for a bigger wire,, reason they dont,,,, hasnt caused a problem. It will effect performance some, although its legal to run 75 ft 12 no one does it, I only know 2 master (thats just me) that read it at his home and said, oh, the instructions ,,, and ran 25 ft 12 and short 12 cord for his own machine, said, I rarely use it. My neighbor same way, burns a rod on occasion but got the same 10 cable 15 ft to the outlet been there for near 40 yrs now, got to wonder why he hasnt burned the place down? Obvious from this thread most only read a little and most of it stops when they see 40A breaker, dont bother with any of the rest of it or cant be bothered to learn why,,, this would be too much trouble when its so much easier to jump to a conclusion.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
NEC requires #6 gauge also for 50 amp.I recon I threw that up without reading it very much because it was right for NEC also. 50 amps requires #6's because of 125% over the load rule and 80% wire loading rule which are nearly one in the same. If you have 125% then you surely have the 80% covered on wire loading.
Reply:Now,,,, as for being already wired,,, in my case would install additional circuit for new heavy machine. The other would stay, it wouldnt be abandoned. I will admit all mine are wired above the minimum, in a real safety sense its as much to do with the connections, a small wire simply isnt so good especially at hi current. Even though the mfg may list a 14 the recept doesnt allow the connection so the fooling with it all isnt worth it, simply easier to upsize to meet it all. That is probably the best reason to upsize, most dont effect performance a lot due to short length, big jump between 25 ft and 75. Guy like Willie,,, has wire, buys a new 255 cost 6 large and going to run hot gas, really doubt he going to try to green acres a circuit with a 211. Big difference than a guy buying an import 130 sticker. I am not advocating a smaller circuit, I am saying you are allowed to do this. Big difference in those statements. So,, we run a larger wire and a 40,,, just in case,,, now he has to change it to 50 for a 255. Still isnt plug and play. Whats kind of disappointing is we see some real brain farts endorsed and then when describing a legal welding circuit the come out unglued but a guy comes along and uses 80A circuit so he can use "alk his welders" on it and not a FUGGIN WORD,,, B YOU GO GIRL kind of endorsement to a circuit with half a dozen basic code violations including the big one of not having larger breaker on smaller outlet. This will inevitably lead to opinions on why its safe to do this to an Idealarc or better yet how to wire it with adapter to a dryer circuit, neither wire outlet of breaker designed for it and a discussion about wire overheating and how its ok cause I dun it,,, which may be true but its a major code violation to have outlet not properly current limited,,, not so much to protect thew wire but to insure proper short circuit protection. Mfg says its ok to use smaller wire but there is no exception to put a larger breaker on the outlet, While we dont want to overheat anything there is part B I am as concerned with and that is a proper current limited circuit. I have heard it here,,, why dont we simply plug it all in to 100 A, since the wire wont overheat (all it does is protect the wire in the wall) commo9n statement and the fact it is so widely quoted tells me the pros have not explained this concept very well,,,, that most of thje worlds equipment is fault protected form the system breaker, even a simple power strip says,,, this is not a substitute for proper breaker and is not for short circuit, still uses the breaker for that, its a thermal reset and not a breaker. Lots of control wires in machines simply upsized for fault rather than adding additional fuses or protection, simply easier and cheaper and less complicated. Now days protection added for electroni9cs and all that small stuff but old ranges,,, common buzzer welders,,, nothing in them. Machine allowed to connect, even requires it to 50A. There is some misconception that mfg can do whatever they want,,, they cant if they want it listed,,, but they are responsible for compliance, means they responsible but are allowed to read all those charts and exceptions. Got to wonder why they got all that calc stuff when they could simply ask what Joes opinion about it all is? Seems a lot simpler than doing any math and having to understand some rudimentary elements of circuit design,,, I can see the code board now,,,, Joe on the internet said,,, so lets change all this stuff been there for decades, lets go tell Miller and Linc they dont know what the f they talking about because there is an internet thread with opinions about it,,, we realize most of them are diy types so they must know something about it?www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Oh boy here we go again. It is a 50 amp outlet being permanently installed and at some point the welder will not be there. The standalone outlet by itself would not pass inspection being it is 50 amp it would need to be fed with #6's to be on a 50 amp breaker. The whole point especially since IT IS A 10 FOOT RUN is to install it as a code compliant 50 amp outlet aside from knowing what will be plugged in to it. Wire it to full capacity code compliant to 50 amps and never have a problem. If it came with a 50 amp cord cap you can plug up and know you have enough.It is just what I would do and suggest to be done here. There is zero downsides EXCEPT the cost of a frigging 10 foot of wire. I could have bought the frigging wire already with the time wasted here talking about it. I will supply the #6 wire just come and get it. Jeezus already.Last edited by danielplace; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:28 AM.
Reply:Rambling aside I've been with this thread from day one and resisted adding to the confusion until I saw what I believe to be in-accurate information regarding the wire size for a 50 amp circuit. If I am wrong please post the code article that requires #6 when using THxx conductors in pipe. The only 125% code rules I know of refer to electric space heating equipment and continuous loads. Some claim the 125% rule for best practice, but that is not a code requirement, and a 50 amp receptacle is not even a load in itself.It's all about keeping the information accurate for folks coming here for advice now and in the future.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:It is just what I would do and suggest to be done here
Reply:You must not do any work currently that is getting inspections. 50 amp requires #6's where I am. We put in lots of 30amp and some 50 amp twist locks on the roof on condominiums for the swing stages for remodels all the time. The 50 amp twist locks are fed with #6'sThere is no set specific load. They are just twist lock outlets outside the wall of the electric room on the roof. Just one example. Same goes for any range now too they want 50 amp fed with #6's every time regardless.Just installed a 10K generator. It had a 50 amp main in the unit. We pulled 3- #6's and a #10 to the transfer switch. Just installed a 50 amp gen set power inlet twist lock box on back wall of my neighbor's house to a back fed 50 amp breaker in the panel. Ran 6-3 romex.Hmmm. Not one saying #8 THXX would be fine too. https://www.bing.com/search?q=what+s...1917&mkt=en-ushttps://www.bing.com/search?q=what+s...281f&mkt=en-ushttps://learnmetrics.com/50-amp-wire-size/https://www.bing.com/search?q=NEC+Co...281f&mkt=en-usLast edited by danielplace; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:12 AM.
Reply:The new machines are interesting because the code is the bible and the evolution has been so recent we have been able to witness it. I look in hindsight, I was behind and didnt have someone splain it direct and start to study a little. rather simple not to memorize it so to speak in an academic fashion but previous learning had been hand to mouth with guys really never read it either. But there is a lot of difference between what it says and what people think it says and doesnt say even. I think it even mentions that or makes it clear and suggests the definations even if you think you know what the means. As much as I thought I knew about it I have NEVER found anything in it they aint thought of or addressed in these regards I study a little under Keis, Don who is still on a forum as far as I know, John Nelson and Warren Goorcich and they tolerate me and actually tried to beat Nelson to the answers for a year on DIY about 20 yrs ago and bought a new copy and line itemed the questions. I doubt I could pass a test but am acutely aware of what I didnt know I didnt know and some important fundamental misconcepts I certainly didnt understand and having good design build skills and copy skills and line item I could do without actually understanding anything. My friend a genius didnt bother to spalin I reallyu didnt understand or maybe assume I did and now this is the area of focus, dit they miss crucial details with other aspects of a circuit due to the fog over overheating a wire from breaker on a calculated load no less,,,, they hear the short answer and it does make for a good install but the discussion ends and other critical factors the pro sposed to learn like reflex are totally ignored.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:It amazes me that with all the new equipment the length they go to meet 100 yrs old code and be compliant. I got to watch MVP and DVI as they figure out how to change cords and fittings and still end up compliant on a 50A welder circuit. They had some things they try to overcome with the instructions on the MVP due to so much DIY. There was mfg advantage when they could use 1 roll of input wire in a whole plant,,, ha but they couldnt till that dvi adapter.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:You must not do any work currently that is getting inspections. 50 amp requires #6's where I am. We put in lots of 30amp and some 50 amp twist locks on the roof on condominiums for the swing stages for remodels all the time. The 50 amp twist locks are fed with #6's
Reply:Passed plenty of inspections using #8 THxx for 50 amps, because it's allowable by code. Where I am we follow code and the inspectors enforce code, not what they want or what they saw on Google. 60C column for NM, 75C column for THxx on any termination made in the last 50 years and not marked otherwise (meaning unmarked).Last edited by bigb; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:24 AM.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:It does say cord and plug equipment has to be rated to connect to listed overcuurent and this is the deal. No problem having something plug in to the 50A roof top outlet but it cant be with a jumper to a phone charger. or electric drill. While a guy can feel its safe to wire something big difference than someone makes it code compliant and could pass forensic. Whole section on cords and such and one of the charts says, number 12, just like the small welder with 50 end. An example we actually did, built a cooler, wanted to run it from welder outlets at the time so we made all 240. Real load was maybe 11 at the time and I kind of forget or we evolved to welder I cant recall but similar to the welder in that it would have ran on 14 some controls were 16 so we simply add 2 space panel and size up the cord to 12, use 50 end, legal to plug up to 50. Now maybe I misunderstand but this is where we got in a jamb up earlier but I wanna understand clearly that a guy cant simply wire anything he wants to a 50 end and plug it in if he feels like it and its ok? As I read that and the way it sounds its not really clear?www.urkafarms.com |
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发表于 2022-9-16 15:52:23