Which argon regulator to buy

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Hello,I would like to change out the included Miller/Smith regulator flow gauge that was included with my Multimatic 200 for a nicer unit.  I am a hobby welder.Would like a proper flowmeter (flowtube and ball) with low output pressure to reduce gas waste, and high quality that will last.  Precise adjustability, consistent, etc.What I narrowed down to (in order of preference):1. Victor HRF1425-580.  25psi.  I like the finer increments on the flowmeter scale.I read it is a piston regulator, is this necessarily an issue?  Will pressure fluctuate over time and is not adjustable?For hobby use is there any reason to pay 2x for a Victor 2425?  They look the same except the regulator portion (adjustable diaphragm?).The 2425 says back pressure compensated, what does this mean?Do either or both of these have balanced pressure and flow rate as tank pressure decreases?2. Harris 355. 20psi.  I do not like the scale on the flowmeter, goes up to 70cfh and less resolution in the 15-25 range where I will use it.I would have chose this based on it being highly recommended if it wasn't for for the poor resolution on the flow tube.Parts don't look as available as for the Victors.Looks like an adjustable diaphragm regulator.3. HTP flowmeter.  50psi, if it can't be adjusted/reduced then I will pass.https://usaweld.com/products/flowmeterCan 25psi be used for MIG as well, or does MIG require higher pressure?Last edited by mbrick; 5 Days Ago at 02:48 AM.
Reply:"I would like to change out the included Miller/Smith regulator"...Why does everything need to be 'changed out' or maybe 'changed in' instead of just 'changed'? Sorry, I'm "Old School"....I don't know any regulators by model number anymore, but can say the cost will depend on the construction, on whether it is single or two stage, on the level of machining of the internal parts, and on the name which somewhat equates to the implied warranty, I think. I am unaware of the piston design; must be either new or at least have been rare in the "old days" when I was more active.As far as the question "Can 25psi be used for MIG as well, or does MIG require higher pressure?" goes, what counts is providing a stable envelope of inert gas to shield the weld. Generally, that means a minimum volume of non-turbulent gas. The pressure needs to be enough to deliver that minimum flow; more pressure is not necessarily better and too much is bad.WRT the statement "Would like a proper flowmeter (flowtube and ball) with low output pressure to reduce gas waste,", if the machine has a solenoid that shuts off gas when not welding, a regulator with a calibrated (low) pressure gauge in conjunction with the proper orifice should deliver the needed gas flow just as efficiently as a flowmeter unit will, IMHO. With a TIG torch, the screened cups that reduce turbulence will thereby keep the flow calm, will keep the gas from mixing with surrounding air, thus allowing lower flow rates. I suppose with MIG, the gas flow level might vary a small amount depending on the gun, but also on operating conditions including the gas used, position and motion of the torch, and especially the ambient air movement..Last edited by Oldiron2; 5 Days Ago at 03:23 AM.
Reply:Hello M,It looks like you have been doing some research. I can’t recommend a specific regulator, but I can make some comments that might help.

Originally Posted by mbrick

I would like to change out the included Miller/Smith regulator flow gauge that was included with my Multimatic 200 for a nicer unit. I am a hobby welder.
Reply:The 'flow rate' is the 'flow rate'. You're not going to save or waste any gas with a pressure change.Last edited by chuckt62; 4 Days Ago at 11:29 AM.Reason: ...unless you have a leak
Reply:While welding is stopped, gas does diffuse out of the torch nozzle. A reasonable surge allows gas to reach the arcing wire when welding begins, reducing oxidation. Unless the pressure is exceedingly high and one is making many starts and stops with long enough intervals between them for the hose pressure build up fully, I doubt the surge gas amounts to a significant proportion of that used. Yes, if needed, the secondary pressure could be reduced but the flow control valve opened enough to get the needed volume; mark the gauge using tape where the wanted setting than is after adjusting according to performance.
Reply:as Hobby welder myself I have never seen the need to change to a Flow Meter but it's up to you and it is only $40.00and flow rate is set in Cubic Feet per Hour (CFH) USA  or Litres per Minute L/MEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I have plumbed a basic standard mini-air pressure regulator on my machines so regardless of the output pressure of the regulator I can dial it down to the exact pressure needed to get the flow-rate rise that I want with minimal-to-no overshoot.   Works great to minimize waste, but you do have to keep track of how much pressure is needed to produce a certain specific flowrate.  If you sit there calibrating it each and every time and waste shielding gas doing so, you might nullify your savings.

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Reply:

Originally Posted by chuckt62

The 'flow rate' is the 'flow rate'. You're not going to save or waste any gas with a pressure change.
Reply:Hi Jack, thanks for the very thorough reply.I will look for a Victor 1425 based on your feedback.  I don't think $120 is too expensive for a quality regulator, but $210 for the 2425 is starting to get up there.These older threads were insightful as well:https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/4...ity-Flow-Meterhttps://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/6...rgon-Regulator
Reply:Can be seen  from  another angle, the flow required is a function of the result.  Many variable can affect this. Maybe buy un good flowmeter gage to validate your value anytime you want and invest in good  gas lens and gas saver lens which allow to have the same (or better) result with less off debit.


Reply:

Originally Posted by Jack Ryan

The wastage comes from gas surge and can be significant. Reducing the pressure reduces the surge.Jack
Reply:I would drive it a while and see what happened. It aint gonna be a perfect world.  Some of these guys have more machines and expense than I do, got 1 machine cost more than all mine together.  But why simply toss stuff against the wall to see how much sticks.  As a hobby and even a professional it wouldnt be on my short list for the day.  If you are serious your next new machine will come with something new and that will entertain.  If I was looking to treat myself here would make sure I had a couple modest grinders, , good battery drill and Sawzall,  I am wayy less pretentious about it all and even come to the conclusion a new 49 cent outlet is fine.  I been not buying everything in sight and utilizing the assets I do if proper.  Cheap stuff that works so well out of the box as most of the ready made stuff does is why we are getting it today vs piecing the best of it together ourselves.  Reason for buying the Sears tool set, allows so much work for so little cost and that is the plus for the modern welder.   Joe Hobbny should buy a new 210 right out of the shoot and a bag of tips, burn a half a dozen rolls on everything in sight, if serious about gas spend some of that juice in a spare/larger/extra bottle.  When you put the new roll in buy another.  Do all that and then look around for a new reg.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:

Originally Posted by Oldiron2

But is it likely to be occurring with the "Miller/Smith regulator flow gauge that was included with my Multimatic 200" the OP spoke of? A simple test to determine how much surge is being produced would be easy to perform. It takes lots of gas to pay for a new regulator unit, something most hobby welders will never justify.Another consideration; might the current unit be improperly adjusted at the factory?
Reply:

Originally Posted by Oldiron2

But is it likely to be occurring with the "Miller/Smith regulator flow gauge that was included with my Multimatic 200" the OP spoke of? A simple test to determine how much surge is being produced would be easy to perform. It takes lots of gas to pay for a new regulator unit, something most hobby welders will never justify.Another consideration; might the current unit be improperly adjusted at the factory?
Reply:

Originally Posted by mbrick

I can hear the "whoosh" when gas flow first starts.  I am guessing its in the 50-60psi range like most regulators seem to be set to?A lower pressure to eliminate gas surge is only one benefit.  I also want something more easily adjustable and I like the float in a flow tube.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Jack Ryan

Surge will happen in the right circumstances with any regulator and results in gas wastage and poor initial shielding. Whether either of these is significant is another question and depends on the type, amount and stop/start nature of the welding.It is not that easy to measure the amount of gas in a surge, particularly with the equipment available to most welders.From the viewpoint of a hobbyist, it is more a matter of what one wants rather than what one needs. A gas surge might equate to the amount of gas in a 2 second post flow, even though the surge itself might only last for 0.5 seconds. That can be a lot of gas if spot welding or panel tacking. If you want to do something about it, you can.Jack
Reply:

Originally Posted by Oldiron2

I disagree about the difficulty. A reasonably simple and accurate way is to make the front mouth of the nozzle the only place for gas to escape, as by wrapping tape at its back side, than carefully tape a small plastic bag to the nozzle front (positioned so it can expand uniformly) and squeeze the trigger long enough to get the full surge, but no more. If needed, do this two, five or ten times until the bag is inflated enough that its dimensions can be used to calculate the volume...or twist the bag to seal it, remove from the torch and carefully immerse in a full bucket of water such that the overflow can be caught and actually measured. A tube sealed through the side and below the top, is easier to use; I once made such a setup for calculating density of materials.Another interesting test to do is to use something like a smoke machine (a beekeeping smoker works well, if used properly) to fill a box with still, visible smoke or vapor and trigger the gun while inside the box. This can show how much turbulence is being caused by the buildup of spatter near the nozzle, or just from poor torch/nozzle design.
Reply:I have examples of the Victor 1425, 2425 and Harris 355 flow meters, so I think I can help a bit.  I like the 355 the best for two main reasons....it's got the lowest outlet pressure, which is nice for TIG because it gives such a soft start to the flow and two, I think the scale on the tube is easier to read (not as busy).  I have never worried about the lack of resolution in the scale at all.  I have the Victor 1425 on my 350P where a slightly higher pressure isn't even noticeable.  I've got the 2425 on an old Miller Regency with a 22A wire feeder.  I actually swapped flow meters around so I would have a 355 on both of my TIG welders and the two Victors on my two MIG welders.I don't see any significant difference between the 1425 and 2425 other than the 2425 is a bit beefier construction.  The Harris 355 is quite a bit larger and heavier than either of the Victor units.I don't see how you can go wrong with any of them, but I like the fact that the Harris is made in the U.S. versus Mexico for the Victor units, and Victor is owned by ESAB so it's not a U.S. company like Harris.Check out my bench vise website:  http://mivise.comMiller Syncrowave 250DXMillermatic 350P with XR AlumaProMiller Regency 200 with 22A feeder and Spoolmatic 3Hobart Champion EliteEverlast PowerTig 210EXT
Reply:

Originally Posted by G-ManBart

I don't see how you can go wrong with any of them, but I like the fact that the Harris is made in the U.S. versus Mexico for the Victor units, and Victor is owned by ESAB so it's not a U.S. company like Harris.
Reply:

Originally Posted by G-ManBart

I have examples of the Victor 1425, 2425 and Harris 355 flow meters, so I think I can help a bit.  I like the 355 the best for two main reasons....it's got the lowest outlet pressure, which is nice for TIG because it gives such a soft start to the flow and two, I think the scale on the tube is easier to read (not as busy).  I have never worried about the lack of resolution in the scale at all.  I have the Victor 1425 on my 350P where a slightly higher pressure isn't even noticeable.  I've got the 2425 on an old Miller Regency with a 22A wire feeder.  I actually swapped flow meters around so I would have a 355 on both of my TIG welders and the two Victors on my two MIG welders.I don't see any significant difference between the 1425 and 2425 other than the 2425 is a bit beefier construction.  The Harris 355 is quite a bit larger and heavier than either of the Victor units.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Jack Ryan

I believe ESAB is owned by Colfax Corporation, an American company. I bit indirect I suppose but still in the family.Jack
Reply:Keep your Miller all Miller. Lol.These are really nice reg/flow meters. They are 30 psi so surge losses are not huge.https://www.millerwelds.com/equipmen...ig-22-30-580-6They don't cost that much though,https://bakersgas.com/products/mille...psig-22-30-580Feeding Tig side of Multimatic 200,

Feeding the Dynasty 280DX

Last edited by danielplace; 2 Days Ago at 08:49 PM.
Reply:

Originally Posted by danielplace

Keep your Miller all Miller. Lol.These are really nice reg/flow meters. They are 30 psi so surge losses are not huge.https://www.millerwelds.com/equipmen...ig-22-30-580-6They don't cost that much though,https://bakersgas.com/products/mille...psig-22-30-580
Reply:

Originally Posted by mbrick

Thank you, your feedback having used all of them is very relevant!
Reply:Let's try it this way:

Check out my bench vise website:  http://mivise.comMiller Syncrowave 250DXMillermatic 350P with XR AlumaProMiller Regency 200 with 22A feeder and Spoolmatic 3Hobart Champion EliteEverlast PowerTig 210EXT

Originally Posted by G-ManBart

The Victor scale may be more accurate, but I find it a lot easier to use the one on the Harris.
Reply:Ok, I see what you mean.  When looking at them side by side, the Victor is certainly too busy with text and the text is too large.If it only had Argon, or was laid out better it might win out.  But the Harris is easier to read.Now you have me leaning toward the Harris!Do you also read "top of ball" on the Harris (like the Victor)?  I know some are top, and some are center.Last edited by mbrick; 2 Days Ago at 12:49 AM.
Reply:

Originally Posted by mbrick

Ok, I see what you mean.  When looking at them side by side, the Victor is certainly too busy with text and the text is too large.If it only had Argon, or was laid out better it might win out.  But the Harris is easier to read.Now you have me leaning toward the Harris!Do you also read "top of ball" on the Harris (like the Victor)?  I know some are top, and some are center.
Reply:Turns out the Harris says to read the center of the ball....hasn't been an issue for me, but I don't change settings often and nobody else is in my shop to change stuff when I'm not around.Check out my bench vise website:  http://mivise.comMiller Syncrowave 250DXMillermatic 350P with XR AlumaProMiller Regency 200 with 22A feeder and Spoolmatic 3Hobart Champion EliteEverlast PowerTig 210EXT
Reply:

Originally Posted by Jack Ryan

They look interesting if not a little vulnerable.Some interesting claims:Flow tubes have a unique self-centering ball guide which provides accurate readings even if tipped.- The tube is tapered so it can only be partially self centering.- The ball's position is, in part, determined by gravity. A tilted gauge will not read accurately. (To be fair, possibly more accurately than one without a guide).I can't see an order code that would give me one that shows l/m - that might be offered in a localised catalogue.The connection for the hose is not shown - I assume it is at the bottom of the flow meter so an extra fitting must be needed.Thanks for posting that.Jack
Reply:

Originally Posted by danielplace

Jack,Not sure why you can't see the hoses but they are in plain view at my end.All standard gas hoses thread right into the bottom of the flow tube. No extra fitting it has the correct female threads to accept hose directly.The original 30 series Smith regulators have always been super dependable.  I have about 20- 30  series regulators on my oxy-acetylene equip.