Boat repairs Welding aluminum

admin

I’ve had several people asking if I can make repairs on their boats. Most are very easy repairs. Anyhow, I was thinking of maybe buying some tools to get some practice and maybe get into making small repairs. Most of the material is 14-22 gauge. I’m looking for suggestions on tooling up. I have a 305g I was thinking of using with my 12vs and a spool gun. I also have a Hobart 140 I was thinking of using. I may also look into a tig rig. Whats the most practical way to get into this, while utilizing what I have?  I’ve tig welded stainless piping, but used other guys equipment, and it was already rigged up, so I’m looking for any suggestions, being that I’ve never welded aluminum with anything other than stick electrodes.
Reply:If the boats were originally riveted they won't weld successfully and just crack beside the welds. You can try to tighten the rivets is about all. Knew a specialty welding shop that did extensive aluminum Tig welding but it doesn't work for small riveted boats. If the boats have welded hulls can be welded. Epoxy may be an option.
Reply:They’re welded.
Reply:MIG would be the way to go, you can set up for it easy with what you have and the skill level is less than TIG. Tig welding used boats can be challenging due to the amount of crud that you have to fight with in the weld pool. I would use 5356 wire.
Reply:diesel,if the boats are 0.064" to say 0.025" (as you mention) its very hard to understand they were welded originally?  Usually boats of this thin a scantling are press formed/roll formed and that is not usually done from the 50 series (marine sheet goods) alloys due to the bend radius of the 'welding alloys' compared to the forming tooling radius of thinner materials in different aluminum alloys.Another property of press forming materials is the ability of that alloy of aluminum to 'flow' without tearing into the dies/two sides of the forming machine.  This series of alloys isn't always well behaved when welded- not that they can't be welded at all.... but welding isn't why those alloys were created- generally.And as Dave mentions, when these formed alloys are welded- the original alloy's properties next to many of the welds- not all of course- tend to become hardened and embrittled so they no longer flex like they did originally.That translates to a weld repair that may come back (over and over....!) because it created a 'hard spot' that cracked at the edge of the HAZ.Just a note of caution from someone who's repaired dozens of thin scantling, press formed aluminum boats and had a mix of successes and failures at the repair sites on these skiffs.MIG isn't really controllable enough to do the typical repair, and TIG, while very much more controllable and can be scaled down to the small beads implied by the scantlings you list: that's still a pretty fine bead, and the finer the bead- generally the longer time before you're putting that down reliably.so to answer your question about doing the work with what you have:  You can't. TIG is the only way and that will be in pretty small beads that usually require a fair bit of practice.A few cents from an old welder with a few skiffs in his past.Cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morin

diesel,if the boats are 0.064" to say 0.025" (as you mention) its very hard to understand they were welded originally?  Usually boats of this thin a scantling are press formed/roll formed and that is not usually done from the 50 series (marine sheet goods) alloys due to the bend radius of the 'welding alloys' compared to the forming tooling radius of thinner materials in different aluminum alloys.Another property of press forming materials is the ability of that alloy of aluminum to 'flow' without tearing into the dies/two sides of the forming machine.  This series of alloys isn't always well behaved when welded- not that they can't be welded at all.... but welding isn't why those alloys were created- generally.And as Dave mentions, when these formed alloys are welded- the original alloy's properties next to many of the welds- not all of course- tend to become hardened and embrittled so they no longer flex like they did originally.That translates to a weld repair that may come back (over and over....!) because it created a 'hard spot' that cracked at the edge of the HAZ.Just a note of caution from someone who's repaired dozens of thin scantling, press formed aluminum boats and had a mix of successes and failures at the repair sites on these skiffs.MIG isn't really controllable enough to do the typical repair, and TIG, while very much more controllable and can be scaled down to the small beads implied by the scantlings you list: that's still a pretty fine bead, and the finer the bead- generally the longer time before you're putting that down reliably.so to answer your question about doing the work with what you have:  You can't. TIG is the only way and that will be in pretty small beads that usually require a fair bit of practice.A few cents from an old welder with a few skiffs in his past.Cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:Not very. O/A aluminium is possible, but it's fiddly and difficult to get right at the best of times.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Munkul

Not very. O/A aluminium is possible, but it's fiddly and difficult to get right at the best of times.
Reply:Kevin has it right. Tig would be the only way to go for what you want to do but it will take some time before you are ready to try welding that aluminum sheet metal on boats.  The rivited boats make up about 90% of the under 20 ft aluminum pleasure boat market on fresh water lakes . I have repaired many of them but I have learned what I can repair and what I can't .  The riveted overlaped seems have adhisive between the layers and do not take kindly to trying to weld them.  If the leak is from a seem I tell them to try and tighten the rivets or use some sort of sealant on them.  Most wind up selling the boat once bad leaks start.  I am sure there are more welded aluminum boats on the coasts . Where they take more of a beating by the waves and weather but inland you will not find many other than pontoon boats and a few flat bottoms like duck boats and air boats.
Reply:

Originally Posted by thegary

The rivited boats make up about 90% of the under 20 ft aluminum pleasure boat market on fresh water lakes .
Reply:

Originally Posted by bplayer405

Not to derail, but I've been researching into making repairs on jon boats myself. How practical would oxy-acetylene be to make weld repairs? I'm thinking about getting a small torch setup to aluminum weld the same gauge.Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Reply:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morin

MIG isn't really controllable enough to do the typical repair...
Reply:

Originally Posted by Oscar

...until you consider pulsed-spray MIG for aluminum.  HTP's Pro Pulse MIGs are rated down to 0.032" with the Precision Aluminum Welding synergic program that is on the machine.   FF until 36:30.   Looks like 0.050", more or less.  But you get the idea. (he does exaggerate a bit, as it's not "as thin as a coke can", lol)
Reply:Oscar, diesel, others on the thread.Controllable is sort of relative term in this type of work.  We're not discussing a general hull seam of a 0.024" (22 gauge) that is a foot long- where position, access and set allow one to consider a power supply that can weld with pulse- pulse/w/pulse or other great features when seams can be done that justify the controls.What we're discussing in repairing a very light scantling boat is where a corner of the hull has been damaged. The bow or stern corner work for a conversational examples. There is usually a heavier extrusion (0.125" to 0.160") meeting a 0.080" (or thinner) topsides, transom or perhaps a bow ramped up bottom panel?All these need to be welded at one temp/heat of fusion while cold, and as you get to more or fewer cross sections of material- control of Mig isn't very conducive to these wild sectional shifts. However I was using the term controllable to describe the TIG pedal/torch amperage control.Next example, out in the middle of the boat's bottom a rock has pushed up a fairly deeply creased bend in the bottom that stops, abruptly at a transverse rib's lap welded, horizontal (bend) flange.  The top of the crease has formed a hardened area, that flexes for a  few trips and slowly begins to leak.The weld may be along the top of the crease? or the bend hammered out and then welded, or in some cases there's a doubler added and all this has to tie into the rib.So again, the TIG control is the very deliberate variability of the welding wattage- while in MIG you pretty much 'set and go'.  If the MIG were remote controlled on the gun's handle (? some people do this) then the weld could be heated and cooled to suit the needed repair cross section of differing materials.In general, MIG regardless of arc control characteristics isn't as agile as TIG for the repair of these boats - riveted/formed boats oR welded boats with heavier scantlings mentioned by bassboy.Another item in these welds is the dirt, contamination, and debris that might be present.  TIG allows you to stop adding filler, lower the wattage, keep the puddle molten and just bubble out most of the junk (not saying good prep is to be ignored!) where MIG can only stack up wire to keep an arc, making the contamination area worse and worse, and requiring extensive body fender work before the next pass!There is quite a bit of difference between taking on repairs in a job shop and working to weld light scantling boats using factory jigs, weld sequences.  The primary difference is the prior is random and the latter is very sequential and every single inch of welding is planned!Cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:Diesel - what kind of repairs were they looking for ?  Hulls, decks , ladders, trailers, outboards . In my area, there are lots of rocks, Most of the repairs are cracked outboard cases, and skegs. Only a few guy do props. When the lakes get low, there are lots of repairs.Airco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square waveMiller Synchrowave 180 sdMiller Econo Twin HFLincoln 210 MPDayton 225 ac/dcVictor torchesSnap-On YA-212Lotos Cut60D
Reply:Some have asked for cuts, small gouges, holes, cracked hulls, and broken transoms to be repaired. There have been few who have asked for trailer repairs as well. The trailers could always be done with aluminum rods. The majority of them who have asked have flat bottom John boats. They’re real popular around here.
Reply:

Originally Posted by diesel625

Some have asked for cuts, small gouges, holes, cracked hulls, and broken transoms to be repaired. There have been few who have asked for trailer repairs as well. The trailers could always be done with aluminum rods. The majority of them who have asked have flat bottom John boats. They’re real popular around here.
Reply:I wouldn't be trusting stick aluminum on a trailer. There's a reason you never see anything commercially made of aluminum welded with stick.
Reply:I think I’m going to buy a multiprocess 220 welder. Anyone run the Everlast 205s?
Reply:

Originally Posted by diesel625

I think I’m going to buy a multiprocess 220 welder. Anyone run the Everlast 205s?
Reply:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morin

Diesel, does this power supply output as AC TIG arc?  If not, it will not really solve the 'thin skinned boat repair' application you've posted about above.I'm not familiar with the power supply but don't believe there are many multi-purpose power supplies that include AC TIG with all the other features?  All the other features of this power supply are DC output, as near as I can tell?Just a word about confirming AC TIG if you're going to work on thin aluminum hulls? Pretty sure the Everlast guys here will know intimately what outputs this power supply offers?Cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:Thnx thegary, all my power supplies are red or blue; or the older ones- gray.  & Never even laid eyes on an Everlast in person, but it's good to hear there is the key output AC TIG in this model.  So Diesel will have the needed output for thin hulled boat repairs.that's quite a few (multi-) functions in one power supply!  What does Everlast offer in the 300+ range in AC TIG? I build in thicker aluminum and have a "Blue"300DX power supply that isn't new... so I wouldn't mind knowing what's competitive since the cost of a "Blue" replacement is about the same as a new pickup tk! (exaggeration for the sake of attempting some humor).Cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:You should get a straight tiq machine that has the most amps you can run off the generator side of the 305G, probably a 250 amp( 40Amp) unit ( or bigger ) . The 305g probably does 40 amps @ 240volts ?  I have a bunch of units, but the 200 amp units just always seem to need a little more in the beginning of the weld. I would take amps over features  when doing straight aluminum. as to brand, your on you own, Everlast seems to have a big selection in the 250 to 300amp class. Some people are happy with them some are not. Lincoln recomends the SW200  to run Tig off of the 305. Let us know what you decide.Good luck.Airco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square waveMiller Synchrowave 180 sdMiller Econo Twin HFLincoln 210 MPDayton 225 ac/dcVictor torchesSnap-On YA-212Lotos Cut60D
Reply:The Lincoln squarewave 200 was another option I was looking at. My 305g does 9500 watts continuous, and 40 amps for the 240v circuit as stated. I was looking at the Everlast powertig 255 as well. Main reason at looking at it is one of my buddies runs one in his shop, and highly recommends it. He has never used the plasma,  but he did say it runs stick and ac tig very good.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morin

Thnx thegary, all my power supplies are red or blue; or the older ones- gray.  & Never even laid eyes on an Everlast in person, but it's good to hear there is the key output AC TIG in this model.  So Diesel will have the needed output for thin hulled boat repairs.that's quite a few (multi-) functions in one power supply!  What does Everlast offer in the 300+ range in AC TIG? I build in thicker aluminum and have a "Blue"300DX power supply that isn't new... so I wouldn't mind knowing what's competitive since the cost of a "Blue" replacement is about the same as a new pickup tk! (exaggeration for the sake of attempting some humor).Cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AKI can think of 3 brands of mig machines with twin pulse that can be set up like a Tig machine. ie: Wave balance, Pulses per second and wave form to control heat input. Synergic, digital and computer enhanced. So yes you can do this with mig. I've done 1/16 aluminum with 3/64 wire. Each pulse puts down a dime ( so to speak) and on it goes. 1 dime per second 3 or 5 dimes. look up OTC, Lorch and Fronius. Granted this is 5 -15K equipment. No idea about the welds near rivets cracking but the base metal should be able to be Mig'd. I haven't seen the type of aluminum posted and it does matter. That being said, I still prefer to Tig weld boat repairs. Good luck !!Thermal Arc 320SP ( Lorch )Cobra PythonsThermal Arc 300 AC/DC  ( Sanrex )ESAB 301i AC/DC  ( Lorch )Thermal Arc 161STL  ( WTL )Thermal Arc 190S  ( Sanrex )Cut Master 82, 42. Cut45 ( WTL )Victor Gas Apps.Boxes and boxes of welding crap.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Rondo

I still prefer to Tig weld boat repairs. Good luck !!
Reply:for a nickel's worth.....my broher uses a 250ex for tig on his work on aluminum, magnesium and other metals.  I have a 205si multi process with plasma (and analog controls) excepting the amps readout that I just use for plasma and have it for backup if the main 256D multi process with plasma (with digital controls) decides to take a nap.  I got it because I wanted more horse power available.  IF I had it to do over, I'd think more about analog controls instead of having to run thru the whole program to make changes in settings.Look around, there is a lot out there .
Reply:I'm not even gonna read this whole thread: listen to Morin if you are actually trying to weld canoes.
Reply:All this does not matter if you cannot do the process. For mig use your spoolgun on thin sheet. For tig, have your buddy with the LincolnSW200 teach you how to weld thin sheet with it. Thicker sections are a breeze with that tig machine up to 1/4", then switch to a mig or add helium to your mix. ER5356 is your friend, with ER4943 a close second. Neither require base metal dilution for adequate strength.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR"

MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:About 8-10 customers ask me to fix a boat or pontoon a year, only 2-3 actually want to spend the money for me to fix them.  Its usually a terrible job, thin cracked sections that have been punched up by something and need to be hammered back straight before welding.  Rub rails and transoms aren't too bad to fix but usually filthy.  Undersides are terrible to do.  I have a XMT with a XR-A spoolgun for most of it if possible.  Also a Synchrowave 350 for tig.  I would never stick weld a aluminum boat.  IMHO stick aluminum only is good for middle of nowhere thicker than 3/16 aluminum.  Most of the time I use 5356  .035 wire, .030 and .023 like to bend and jam up very easily.  Especially if I hit a "dirty" spot and it just pushes the wire.  Cleaning the aluminum is extremely important,  I use Roloc wheels for it, but I work for 3M and get deals on them.  Most of the time I use both the spoolgun and tig.  Ill lay in a bead next to the crack or gap to fill, then go back over it with the tig to draw out any impurities, try to close the crack or gap, and smooth the weld out.  Had to do that a lot on cracks on the underside of boats that are too big to be flipped over.  Are you decent at welding overhead?  Lots of cracks - tears have to be welded from the underside due to decking, foam, and plates welded or riveted to the top.  Don't be afraid to turn some people away too.  Some potential customers think anything can be fixed cheap when they really need a new boat.
Reply:

Originally Posted by ferrret3238

Some potential customers think anything can be fixed cheap when they really need a new boat.
Reply:

Originally Posted by blackkathy

When I had my boat, I was often faced with repairing it because it was almost always breaking down. Because it was ancient, it was already starting to rot. It needed urgent repairs. But because the repairs would have cost me a lot, I preferred to sell that vodka. This way, I freed myself from wasting money to repair it. After all, I didn't need the boat. Mostly I liked to ride the boat and enjoy the beautiful views. But now that I don't have my boat, it's much more convenient for me to use the boat rentals miami service. Plus, these boats they have are much calmer and more comfortable than the little boat I had. So I'm thrilled with the boat rentals, and I don't need my own.
Reply:

Originally Posted by shovelon

Reported as spam
Reply:

Originally Posted by Oscar

...until you consider pulsed-spray MIG for aluminum.  HTP's Pro Pulse MIGs are rated down to 0.032" with the Precision Aluminum Welding synergic program that is on the machine.   FF until 36:30.   Looks like 0.050", more or less.  But you get the idea. (he does exaggerate a bit, as it's not "as thin as a coke can", lol)