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Hey Folks, I'm building a new shop with the PVC in the floor and ceiling, and cutting out the brick to inset the outlets in the walls. I'm even taking the time to taper the edges of the PVC tubing where they are joined, so that there are no sharp edges for the wire to be pulled past/around. I was able to pull a 3 wire for 3 Phase with no return or ground. (down here, grounding doesn't exist.) I tried to get a grounding wire attached to the new structural rebar, but it didn't take. So, my question is this, I was only able to afford 10AWG to pull from the meter to connect to a 33 amp breaker. I'm also pulling the 10AWG throughout the shop as the primary supply line. 12AWG is used in a few outlets and I'm pulling 14AWG through to all the lights.Is 10AWG adequate? Or just barely enough?I've got a friend who's built a woodshop in his home and he swears that the 10AWG wire is more than enough, even for the welder. I had to replace the plug on the welder to get an end on it that would plug into the outlets and the 10AWG is larger the wire in the welders power cord.Any thoughts?
Reply:What size is your conduit.10 gauge will work for three phase welders.The latest code I read 14ga is 15 amps 12ga is 20 amps10ga is 30 ampsThe bond aka ground is one size below the main wires.You may want a neutral for 120volts too.All Gauges great is you need chart.Dave
Originally Posted by Mr.GfC
Hey Folks, I'm building a new shop with the PVC in the floor and ceiling, and cutting out the brick to inset the outlets in the walls. I'm even taking the time to taper the edges of the PVC tubing where they are joined, so that there are no sharp edges for the wire to be pulled past/around. I was able to pull a 3 wire for 3 Phase with no return or ground. (down here, grounding doesn't exist.) I tried to get a grounding wire attached to the new structural rebar, but it didn't take. So, my question is this, I was only able to afford 10AWG to pull from the meter to connect to a 33 amp breaker. I'm also pulling the 10AWG throughout the shop as the primary supply line. 12AWG is used in a few outlets and I'm pulling 14AWG through to all the lights.Is 10AWG adequate? Or just barely enough?I've got a friend who's built a woodshop in his home and he swears that the 10AWG wire is more than enough, even for the welder. I had to replace the plug on the welder to get an end on it that would plug into the outlets and the 10AWG is larger the wire in the welders power cord.Any thoughts?
Reply:Wire current capacity is dependent upon overall length of the wire and the insulation rating on the wire. Most likely your 10 gauge wire will be adequate for a 33A service though.Miller Trailblazer Pro 350DMiller Suitcase MIGMiller Spectrum 2050Miller Syncrowave 250DXLincoln 210MP
Reply:For the friends wood shop the 10 is probably OK. you need to consult a chart that says what size wire you need according to the length of run and maximum amps the welder will pull. Maybe I misunderstood but are you connecting all circuits to the 33 amp breaker?Ol' Stonebreaker "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:You didn’t mention what voltage you would be running the welder on or how much it draws.Miller a/c-d/c Thunderbolt XLMillermatic 180 Purox O/ASmith Littletorch O/AHobart Champion Elite
Reply:I have not seen a 33 amp breaker. Only 15, 20, 30, 40 amp and up breakers Dave
Originally Posted by Mr.GfC
Hey Folks, I'm building a new shop with the PVC in the floor and ceiling, and cutting out the brick to inset the outlets in the walls. I'm even taking the time to taper the edges of the PVC tubing where they are joined, so that there are no sharp edges for the wire to be pulled past/around. I was able to pull a 3 wire for 3 Phase with no return or ground. (down here, grounding doesn't exist.) I tried to get a grounding wire attached to the new structural rebar, but it didn't take. So, my question is this, I was only able to afford 10AWG to pull from the meter to connect to a 33 amp breaker. I'm also pulling the 10AWG throughout the shop as the primary supply line. 12AWG is used in a few outlets and I'm pulling 14AWG through to all the lights.Is 10AWG adequate? Or just barely enough?I've got a friend who's built a woodshop in his home and he swears that the 10AWG wire is more than enough, even for the welder. I had to replace the plug on the welder to get an end on it that would plug into the outlets and the 10AWG is larger the wire in the welders power cord.Any thoughts?
Reply:Everything here in Peru is 220v 60Hz.mla2ofus
Master Welder only my shop and bedroom will be on the 33amp breaker, but the 10AWG is the best wire available here. I'll be running a direct line from the breaker feed to the other box for the rest of the floor. (Just bedrooms)
Reply:
Originally Posted by mla2ofus
For the friends wood shop the 10 is probably OK. you need to consult a chart that says what size wire you need according to the length of run and maximum amps the welder will pull. Maybe I misunderstood but are you connecting all circuits to the 33 amp breaker?
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
What size is your conduit.10 gauge will work for three phase welders.The latest code I read 14ga is 15 amps 12ga is 20 amps10ga is 30 ampsThe bond aka ground is one size below the main wires.You may want a neutral for 120volts too.All Gauges great is you need chart.Dave
Reply:No matter how you split up your loads other loads will be on at least one of the welders two legs and everything being 220 only the third leg is limited too since it is a pair to at least one of the other two you are already using for the welder. You will still have a little left over but not much if welder is cranked up.That third leg that has no welder load can't be utilized much when welder is drawing a load. Bummer. No return or 110 splitting your 220 changes the way you have to think about using the 3 phase.
Reply:That is good news for you.From the photo of welder it is the right size.1" conduit you can pull larger wire later. How long is your conduit pull.Are in the North American if so do you have 120 volt power.In North American we use 120 volts and that can be helpful later.Dave
Originally Posted by Mr.GfC
It's all 220v 60Hz here. I've pulled 3x 10AWG through a 1" PVC conduit, and will be using the 1" throughout the entire shop with the 10AWG.
Reply:I did see until now you only have 220Save
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
I did see until now you only have 220Save
Reply:The size you will workAs you do plan using the old ac welders and say with three phase welders. In USA and Canada you need to run a bond/ground wire from the meter Other than that you good to go.Dave
Originally Posted by danielplace
And welder is singe phase only using two legs. But with only 220 power everything they use the third leg unloaded leg will never be able to be utilized fully with the welder running because all 220 would also be on one of the welders legs at the same time limiting what that 3rd one can run.
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
The size you will workAs you do plan using the old ac welders and say with three phase welders. In USA and Canada you need to run a bond/ground wire from the meter Other than that you good to go.Dave
Reply:Nr. GFC,Regarding this: "But, like I said, when I replaced the plug, the wire was around 12AWG."Power cords for welding machines are sized smaller than what seems like normal practice due to the duty cycle of each machine.It gets confooosing for sure for the weekend warrior trying to size circuits.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
The size you will workAs you do plan using the old ac welders and say with three phase welders. In USA and Canada you need to run a bond/ground wire from the meter Other than that you good to go.Dave
Reply:
Originally Posted by Mr.GfC
What is "1Ø"
Reply:sorry, doubled my last postLast edited by Mr.GfC; 09-30-2020 at 12:38 AM.
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
That is good news for you.From the photo of welder it is the right size.1" conduit you can pull larger wire later. How long is your conduit pull.Are in the North American if so do you have 120 volt power.In North American we use 120 volts and that can be helpful later.Dave
Reply:He is not in the USA He lives part of world where NEC is not used. Even the color code for wires maybe different. Dave
Originally Posted by Mr.GfC
By the way, I am from Houston Texas. Use to have my contractors Lic. for construction in Florida.
Reply:Try this oneThere is parts of world that does no know of Ufer ground.Dave
Originally Posted by Mr.GfC
By the way, I am from Houston Texas. Use to have my contractors Lic. for construction in Florida.
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
Try this oneThere is parts of world that does no know of Ufer ground.Dave
Reply:
Originally Posted by William McCormick
That is why you see the videos of people going to convenience stores and getting electrocuted touching the refrigerator unit's glass door handle. Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:
Originally Posted by Mr.GfC
lol... I watched that on the news here in Lima a few weeks ago.Only the big commercial buildings get ground wires or a neutral. All the old neighborhoods have 3 wire-3phase and no ground. I tried to get a ground to the new rebar before the cement was poured for the ceiling, but it didn't take.Entering the box from the supply, there are 1 red, 1 white, 1 black. 3 wire for 3 phase and no neutral. I think it's called Delta?
and this is what they have as a fuse at the meter..... no breaker.
Look at the picture above. Now you have... lol C32 amp. sorry.Down the road, I'm going to see about getting a completely separate meter installed "if" if I can ever afford to get the lube sent down to try and pull 4AWG to where the new meter would be installed. Until then, I'll just get a 60amp 3 phase installed for the house with a breaker, instead of that dang old timer fuse.Like I said though, welding isn't my primary, it's totally utilitarian for household stuff. When I get a good table saw and build a Thickness sander, they'll probably be the only 3phase motors in the shop, unless I'm able to buy a big air-compressor upgrade.One day, I would like to build a multi purpose CNC table that I could switch out a milling head with a Laser, and a plasma cutter. But still, nothing commercial grade.My goal for my shop is to be able to make toys for the public schools that have nothing for the 4-6 year olds to play with, other than broken plastic crap from China. Chess-sets for the older kids, and then what my son needs to learn basic wood-working, welding, and blacksmithing. He wants to learn to make knives.Thanks for the info guys.Sounds like the water company should be charging for their ground electron feed service..
Reply:When working around world you know each country color code.In the USA and Canada.You run bond wire aka ground back to meter.Green wire or bare copper is bond/ground White is neutral and later for 480/277 gray.For delta 3 phase 240/120 volt red is for stinger. The other 2 legs are black or some blue.In Y typically it is black may also see blue and red to for syncing. Other countries I would have ser chart on there color code.Dave PS:This only main wire in machinery It real guess At time US tools for most part use black for high voltage and red for control circuit voltage.Today use volt meter it is safer.
Originally Posted by Mr.GfC
lol... I watched that on the news here in Lima a few weeks ago.Only the big commercial buildings get ground wires or a neutral. All the old neighborhoods have 3 wire-3phase and no ground. I tried to get a ground to the new rebar before the cement was poured for the ceiling, but it didn't take.Entering the box from the supply, there are 1 red, 1 white, 1 black. 3 wire for 3 phase and no neutral. I think it's called Delta?Attachment 1717068and this is what they have as a fuse at the meter..... no breaker. Attachment 1717069Look at the picture above. Now you have... lol C32 amp. sorry.Down the road, I'm going to see about getting a completely separate meter installed "if" if I can ever afford to get the lube sent down to try and pull 4AWG to where the new meter would be installed. Until then, I'll just get a 60amp 3 phase installed for the house with a breaker, instead of that dang old timer fuse.Like I said though, welding isn't my primary, it's totally utilitarian for household stuff. When I get a good table saw and build a Thickness sander, they'll probably be the only 3phase motors in the shop, unless I'm able to buy a big air-compressor upgrade.One day, I would like to build a multi purpose CNC table that I could switch out a milling head with a Laser, and a plasma cutter. But still, nothing commercial grade.My goal for my shop is to be able to make toys for the public schools that have nothing for the 4-6 year olds to play with, other than broken plastic crap from China. Chess-sets for the older kids, and then what my son needs to learn basic wood-working, welding, and blacksmithing. He wants to learn to make knives.Thanks for the info guys.
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
When working around world you know each country color code.In the USA and Canada.You run bond wire aka ground back to meter.Green wire or bare copper is bond/ground White is neutral and later for 480/277 gray.For delta 3 phase 240/120 volt red is for stinger. The other 2 legs are black or some blue.In Y typically it is black may also see blue and red to for syncing. Other countries I would have ser chart on there color code.Dave PS:This only main wire in machinery It real guess At time US tools for most part use black for high voltage and red for control circuit voltage.Today use volt meter it is safer.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Mr.GfC
Oh, and the security spikes they use down here. I'll get some pictures tomorrow.
Reply:You have 120/208 volts.At one time on old tube TV uses green wire for high voltage and black for ground.The green wire would have 3,000 to 40,000 volts. They change the color code I think it was red in mid 1960's. From time to time you find cords wire with hot wire green and the ground black.Dave
Originally Posted by danielplace
Actually you don't run the ground back to the meter. The ground stops at the first means of disconnect and only the neutral is fed through the meter. Some areas won't even allow the grounding system to tie in in the meter. They want it in the panel. The high leg on Delta 120/240 3 phase system is not red. The 120 lines are usually your black and red phases and your high leg is the orange for sure never red. 277/480 used to be Brown Orange Yellow but because it was getting confused with high leg orange they change to Brown Purple Yellow.120/208 is always A black B red and C is blue.
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
Actually you don't run the ground back to the meter. The ground stops at the first means of disconnect and only the neutral is fed through the meter. Some areas won't even allow the grounding system to tie in in the meter. They want it in the panel. The high leg on Delta 120/240 3 phase system is not red. The 120 lines are usually your black and red phases and your high leg is the orange for sure never red. 277/480 used to be Brown Orange Yellow but because it was getting confused with high leg orange they change to Brown Purple Yellow.120/208 is always A black B red and C is blue.
Reply:Been a licensed electrician since 1985. Color code are not all in the NEC is is proper training that you get the color codes taught to you. If the teacher is clueless you may not be taught correctly as is normal in the trade to do. There is a proper way whether the NEC covers it or not and they will fail you for it. We actually can not phase anything smaller than a #4. All wire pulled must be the color of the phase it is on. NO phase tape is allowed.240 3 phase NEVER should use blue for C phase. The high leg is ALWAYS orange. Any other color is wrong. NEC 230.56>>>>Q1 Where should the high-leg conductor from a 120/240V, three-phase, 4-wire delta-connected system be landed? My utility requires it to be in the right hand or "C" phase position at the meter.>>>>A1 I'm not sure of electric utility requirements, but it's my understanding that The ANSI standard for meter equipment requires the high-leg conductor to terminate on the "C" (right) phase of the meter enclosure. The NEC requirements as follows:Identification. On a 4-wire three-phase delta-connected system, where the midpoint of one phase winding is grounded, the conductor with the higher phase voltage-to-ground must be durably and permanently marked by an outer finish that is orange in color or other effective means. Such identification must be placed at each point on the system where a connection is made if the grounded neutral conductor is present [110.15]. Figure 110-33That would be royal mistake phasing the high leg the same color as C phase on 120/208 power. BLACK RED BLUE is ALWAYS 120/208 power.The BOY in 277/480 has been dropped because it used orange so to avoid mistaking it for a high leg it is now a purple phase and some jurisdictions will no longer accept orange at all anywhere except for high legs.https://www.bing.com/search?q=240%20...8E07F6D8E09F8BLast edited by danielplace; 10-04-2020 at 10:56 PM.
Reply:I thing learned was the color code is as good as the electrician.On any old wiring use a volt meter.Where at they let you use color tape. It great till gets oily and falls off.Dave
Originally Posted by danielplace
Been a licensed electrician since 1985. Color code are not all in the NEC is is proper training that you get the color codes taught to you. If the teacher is clueless you may not be taught correctly as is normal in the trade to do. There is a proper way whether the NEC covers it or not and they will fail you for it. We actually can not phase anything smaller than a #4. All wire pulled must be the color of the phase it is on. NO phase tape is allowed.240 3 phase NEVER should use blue for C phase. The high leg is ALWAYS orange. Any other color is wrong. NEC 230.56>>>>Q1 Where should the high-leg conductor from a 120/240V, three-phase, 4-wire delta-connected system be landed? My utility requires it to be in the right hand or "C" phase position at the meter.>>>>A1 I'm not sure of electric utility requirements, but it's my understanding that The ANSI standard for meter equipment requires the high-leg conductor to terminate on the "C" (right) phase of the meter enclosure. The NEC requirements as follows:Identification. On a 4-wire three-phase delta-connected system, where the midpoint of one phase winding is grounded, the conductor with the higher phase voltage-to-ground must be durably and permanently marked by an outer finish that is orange in color or other effective means. Such identification must be placed at each point on the system where a connection is made if the grounded neutral conductor is present [110.15]. Figure 110-33That would be royal mistake phasing the high leg the same color as C phase on 120/208 power. BLACK RED BLUE is ALWAYS 120/208 power.The BOY in 277/480 has been dropped because it used orange so to avoid mistaking it for a high leg it is now a purple phase and some jurisdictions will no longer accept orange at all anywhere except for high legs.https://www.bing.com/search?q=240%20...8E07F6D8E09F8B |
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发表于 2021-9-1 23:18:21