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So I was just looking at my Tig 300/300. It has a 115v outlet on the face. It powers the water cooler pump.Then I realized this machine has two hots and a ground. No neutral.The only way to get 115v would be to use the ground as a return conductor. Or am I missing a step inside the unit and in my head?Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:Likely has a small 240-120 step down transformer built into it.If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy!
Reply:
Originally Posted by Kevin_Essiambre
Likely has a small 240-120 step down transformer built into it.
Reply:same power to the plug as what runs the cooling fan motor. plug is fused to protect the step down winding. its all part of the main welder transformer.
Reply:If its the one in this version of the manual, it gets fed off of transformer T2 on page 22https://www.lincolnelectric.com/asse...oln3/im353.pdfMillermatic 211Everlast 200DX Thermal Arc 181iKlutch ST80i lunchbox stick welderLincoln Weld-Pak 100Century Stick welderPowermax 30 plasma cutterHenrob 2000 torchLogan 200 lathe (60 years old)Clausing 6339 Lathe (for sale)
Reply:Ok, so it is stepped down to 120v and then what? How does it return?Or does the transformer have 60v and 60v over zero?Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:
Originally Posted by Joker11
Ok, so it is stepped down to 120v and then what? How does it return?Or does the transformer have 60v and 60v over zero?
Reply:You can have multiple secondary windings on a transformer: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws...er-basics.html
Sometimes coils are center tapped.
Reply:They kind of phased those outlets out. Efficiency & GFCI requirements would be my guess.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Wouldn’t surprise me if they used the ground as the neutral. Many old electric panels just used a 3 wire systemMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:I used to wonder why they didn't build single phase welders with 4 wire systems. I never found an answer. They used secondary windings to produce 120 volt AC.Equipment ground only connects to the frame.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:I have zero ideas about the wiring of that welder. However, welders, dryers, ranges, that had 120vac accesories used to use one hot and ground to provide the 120 volts for the secondary systems. This was prior to the 4 prong outlets. The only difference between the ground and neutral is semantics as far as the machine is concerned.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Joker11
Ok, so it is stepped down to 120v and then what? How does it return?Or does the transformer have 60v and 60v over zero?
Reply:
Originally Posted by walker
I have zero ideas about the wiring of that welder. However, welders, dryers, ranges, that had 120vac accesories used to use one hot and ground to provide the 120 volts for the secondary systems. This was prior to the 4 prong outlets. The only difference between the ground and neutral is semantics as far as the machine is concerned.
Reply:
Originally Posted by walker
I have zero ideas about the wiring of that welder. However, welders, dryers, ranges, that had 120vac accesories used to use one hot and ground to provide the 120 volts for the secondary systems. This was prior to the 4 prong outlets. The only difference between the ground and neutral is semantics as far as the machine is concerned.
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
The Lincoln Tig 300/300 uses a completely separate transformer for the aux outlet power. It is not part of the main transformer but rater a separate control power transformer to step down what comes in to the 120 volt needed.It is a transformer with normal neutral and hot on secondary. Returns on the neutral back to transformer.T2 is control transformer. Line voltage in/120 volt out.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
The transformer in your diagram has no neutral. It's output is 120 volts. One terminal is equivalent to the other. If it were a 240 volt output with a center tap, you could call it neutral.There is a lot of misunderstanding about the common 240 volt single phase grounded center tap systems. Because center tap is connected to ground, ground behaves much like center tap. In truth, as many electrons flow from center tap as "hot" legs in 120 volt circuits. You only use half the winding for those circuits.
Reply:If you wanted to spend an hour and a half to explore grounding, there's no better resource than Mike Holt ->
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
I did call it a neutral. Your right it is not actually a neutral. I used the word in place of return so it would make sense to those reading that don't understand all the terminology. Of course you and I and some others would know it isn't actually a neutral from a separate stand alone control transformer. It is just the return from the other end. Of course same load on neutrals as the hot on a circuit as it is the return of the circuit. One big ole' loop and it is all the same basically. Neutral will knock you just the same as the hot if you get in between the load and return or from load to ground.
Reply:
Originally Posted by BaTu
If you wanted to spend an hour and a half to explore grounding, there's no better resource than Mike Holt ->
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
No need to tell you. There, I'm preaching to the choir. Others with less training, extrapolate from everything said to stockpile facts.I dearly wish authors of code gave different labels to the center tap connected equipment. They call it "GROUNDED". After several years of sitting in a room trying to stay awake, an electrical apprentice begins to understand. Most of the population grab on to that root word, and presume they are the same. Grounding & grounded are absolutely two different things. Your power company won't let you mess with their transformer, you don't need to concern yourself with the transformer.At the "house" there is a service disconnect. Inside this first switch to turn off the power you need a "bond" connecting center tap to earth. NOWHERE ELSE IN THE BUILDING, OR BUILDINGS SUPPLIED BY THIS SERVICE, SHOULD THERE BE A CONNECTION!!!!!!!!!
Reply:It is odd to see but in old tube electronics you see that all time. So what is voltage to ground.It maybe have a center tap to ground so you have 57 volts to ground. Dave
Originally Posted by Joker11
So I was just looking at my Tig 300/300. It has a 115v outlet on the face. It powers the water cooler pump.Then I realized this machine has two hots and a ground. No neutral.The only way to get 115v would be to use the ground as a return conductor. Or am I missing a step inside the unit and in my head?
Reply:
Originally Posted by ronsii
I often wondered why not too many years ago I'd see people bonding the panels at every sub panel.... never really got a good answer out of any of them
Here's a small transformer we're helping put in up north, they take their grounding seriously!!! they show a 4/0 running the halo.. which is weird because they only have a 2/0 connecting to it and the rest of the ground buss...
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
That is all about lightning protection. They often require them to be cad welded right to the chassis.
Reply:I used to work for a company and one of our customers was Florida Power & Light. The major power company in most all of South Florida.We did a lot of electrical jobs for them. One of them was installing new transfer switches/backup generators at all their company owned communications buildings/tower sites they have all over Florida. They required 4/0 for grounding of the generator bases and cad welded to the main frame and to the ground rods. Pretty neat whoever invented that attachment method. All the different molds they have for every kind of connection you want to cad weld together. That stuff is incredible the heat it develops when it lights off.
Originally Posted by danielplace
I used to work for a company and one of our customers was Florida Power & Light. The major power company in most all of South Florida.We did a lot of electrical jobs for them. One of them was installing new transfer switches/backup generators at all their company owned communications buildings/tower sites they have all over Florida. They required 4/0 for grounding of the generator bases and cad welded to the main frame and to the ground rods. Pretty neat whoever invented that attachment method. All the different molds they have for every kind of connection you want to cad weld together. That stuff is incredible the heat it develops when it lights off.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
Mike Holt Knows far more than I will ever know. I deeply respect the man.I suffer from severe insomnia. Mike Holt is my personal cure for insomnia. He spends 45 minutes conveying less information than I send in a text.
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
Recently, the power company came out to check the poles for rot.Guy showed up, and about had a sh&t fit when he saw that my breaker box on the pole wasn't earth grounded. I went thru thiis show about 20yrs ago when I installed the old box.Had to stand there, and listen to the dood rant about one of his linemen getting zapped if there might be a bare wire in the breaker box............"It has to be grounded"I tried to explain to him that an earth ground is for lightening, and it ain't gonna take enough current through a earth loop to the source to trip a breaker. Tried to convince him that the return path to the source is via the 4th wire in the box, which is bonded to the panel, and runs to their neutral (return). Their neutral is bonded to their earth ground in their service disconnect, and it's sufficient to take a lightning strike."We'll be back tomorrow, and if there's no ground rod, the electric will be turned off"I put a rod in the ground, and connected it to the panel (shrug). Pulled an old earth rod from the old electric fence setup I used to use, and pounded it in, and ran some copper wire to the box. Anything that makes them happy I guess. I shoulda just kept the old rod they made me drive 20yrs ago, and hooked it up to the new box last year.It was "approved", and my lights are still on
So anyways...........to continue the story...................These geniuses drill two 3/4" holes at right angles to each other in the base of the pole, look at the sawdust,, and determine if the pole is rotten. Then pound a steel rod back in the hole, and plug it with a plastic plug. Holes are about 8ish inches deep. So now, you just compromised the integrity of the pole at the base, which is where all of the strain is. I guess it's SOP. (shrug)They put these remote reading meters out here years ago. I dunno how they work, but I guess they do. Nobody ever comes to check the readings anymore.But, just about twice, I think, since they put the things on...................they've come out and replaced them. Guys said that they weren't reading properly.......too low. WE NEVER USE A LOT OF ELECTRICITY HERE, and I guess it's driving them nutz back at the office.My peak bill is around 85-100 bucks in the Summer. We use two 5200BTU window units to cool the house
The bill will maybe get to 100 if the temps run in the 100's day after day. We run them 24/7 in the Summer. Nights can be worse than the day because of the humidity.I suppose now that I have 3, 5Kw, heaters running in the shop they'll be happy. If all three are running at max, they cost about $1.20 per hour to run.You can't argue with the power company. They have all the cards.
Reply:I guess about all you can do is file a complaint with the PUC, but just see how far that gets ya
Just about as far as filing a complaint with the Insurance Commission.
Reply:Household grounding does not require heavier than #6 copper to each driven rod. The mandatory connection to 20' of reinforcing steel, or 20' of copper poured into concrete is usually ignored. but is a better ground than driven rods. Conductive underground water pipe is rare these days.You can optionally have numerous connections of equipment ground to earth, even at sub panels. The bond to center tap happens only once.You can have a house, and several outbuildings, but only one bond to center tap (neutral).If you bond anywhere else current will flow in the grounding conductor, conduit, and the sheet metal of any appliance. We don't want that.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
Recently, the power company came out to check the poles for rot.Guy showed up, and about had a sh&t fit when he saw that my breaker box on the pole wasn't earth grounded. I went thru thiis show about 20yrs ago when I installed the old box.Had to stand there, and listen to the dood rant about one of his linemen getting zapped if there might be a bare wire in the breaker box............"It has to be grounded"I tried to explain to him that an earth ground is for lightening, and it ain't gonna take enough current through a earth loop to the source to trip a breaker. Tried to convince him that the return path to the source is via the 4th wire in the box, which is bonded to the panel, and runs to their neutral (return). Their neutral is bonded to their earth ground in their service disconnect, and it's sufficient to take a lightning strike."We'll be back tomorrow, and if there's no ground rod, the electric will be turned off"I put a rod in the ground, and connected it to the panel (shrug). Pulled an old earth rod from the old electric fence setup I used to use, and pounded it in, and ran some copper wire to the box. Anything that makes them happy I guess. I shoulda just kept the old rod they made me drive 20yrs ago, and hooked it up to the new box last year.It was "approved", and my lights are still on
So anyways...........to continue the story...................These geniuses drill two 3/4" holes at right angles to each other in the base of the pole, look at the sawdust,, and determine if the pole is rotten. Then pound a steel rod back in the hole, and plug it with a plastic plug. Holes are about 8ish inches deep. So now, you just compromised the integrity of the pole at the base, which is where all of the strain is. I guess it's SOP. (shrug)They put these remote reading meters out here years ago. I dunno how they work, but I guess they do. Nobody ever comes to check the readings anymore.But, just about twice, I think, since they put the things on...................they've come out and replaced them. Guys said that they weren't reading properly.......too low. WE NEVER USE A LOT OF ELECTRICITY HERE, and I guess it's driving them nutz back at the office.My peak bill is around 85-100 bucks in the Summer. We use two 5200BTU window units to cool the house
The bill will maybe get to 100 if the temps run in the 100's day after day. We run them 24/7 in the Summer. Nights can be worse than the day because of the humidity.I suppose now that I have 3, 5Kw, heaters running in the shop they'll be happy. If all three are running at max, they cost about $1.20 per hour to run.You can't argue with the power company. They have all the cards.
Reply:Show me one where the offending current didnt want to travel to earth ground because the wire was the wrong color...
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
That driven rod takes your place as a conductor to earth for fault current. Your body is high in resistance, not much current will flow through you, but you can't survive much current. That ground wire bonded to center tap is an easier path to earth than you.Dairy farmers (what few there are these days) have to be concerned about stray voltage. Cows can't tolerate much at all. 1/10 of 1 volt has been documented to raise leucocyte counts by 2000%! Dairy barns are always wet, all sorts of acids & alkaline contaminants. Stray voltage is pretty common. Code requires many extra measures, and curing a stray voltage problem will increase milk production sharply. The simplest fix is bonding milk line, barn cleaner chain, reinforcing steel in the floor, vacuum line, stantions & water line to each other. You can have current flowing all around a cow, no problem. Current flowing through a cow, that's bad!
Reply:Current on an enclosure should be a transient thing. Very short lived. If the enclosure is bonded to the green current carrying wire (in case of a ground fault), the rush of current is sufficient to trip the breaker,, and remove current from the enclosure. A ground rod doesn't do a damn thing to protect you. It protects the equipment from lightening, and possibly you, if lightning energizes the enclosure.The green "ground" wire returns to source, not Earth.
Reply:
Originally Posted by BaTu
If you wanted to spend an hour and a half to explore grounding, there's no better resource than Mike Holt ->
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
Current on an enclosure should be a transient thing. Very short lived. If the enclosure is bonded to the green current carrying wire (in case of a ground fault), the rush of current is sufficient to trip the breaker,, and remove current from the enclosure. A ground rod doesn't do a damn thing to protect you. It protects the equipment from lightening, and possibly you, if lightning energizes the enclosure.The green "ground" wire returns to source, not Earth.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I bow to your superior knowledge.
Reply:As luck would would have it I got roped(voluntarily
) into going to a buddies house to look at putting 'some outlets and a couple lights in'.... what they really meant is could you run the power from the main box and sub panel this thing
... only about 120 foot conduit run so I'm thinking a 2/0 aluminum run should be good for a 100 amp sub panel... if it were me I'd just put #6 copper in and call it good when all they want is a few 120 outlets and a couple lights....Kinda funny we got the trench all backfilled in the pouring down rain and nobody even mentioned ground rods at the shed... but we did talk about where the outlets and lights go
Reply:
Originally Posted by ronsii
Reply:???...
Reply:I just sat through Mike Holt's video. He is correct. A driven ground rod is a damned poor terminal(code calls it an electrode)I absolutely agree a good current path back to the transformer is the only way to effectively clear a fault. I will give a personal example since I've never seen Sam's service: 40 years ago I ran underground power to my home. I chose to put a breaker at the power pole 160 feet away from the house. That enclosure connects to the power company transformer. Available current is very high before any fuse would blow.Here, all power poles with transformers have a #6 conductor from a driven rod to the center tap of the secondary of the transformer, and the lower of two high voltage conductors from the utility.At 40 years that enclosure is getting rusty, bugs have made it their home. Likelihood the wet organic matter in that box has made a conductor from hot leg to the box enclosure. Meanwhile, the termination of the bonding jumper has 40 years of oxidation. It's a good bet I could drive a second ground rod, and test from it to the outside of that box & read voltage.While I agree with Mike Holt & Sam, that ground rod is a pretty ineffective electrode to earth, the power company driven ground makes the earth a player in this electrical situation. I step up, and touch that box, electrons will flow from it through me to the earth, then back up ground conductor to the centertap of the transformer.If I connect that box to earth, that GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTOR becomes a preferred path for stray electrons. Fewer of them will flow through me.There are lots of situations where we bond everything conductive Pools, marinas, industrial facilities, hot tubs. Driven ground rods serve as a none too effective way to make conductive materials equipotential. Remember a volt meter has two leads. If everything that shouldn't be energized is connected to everything else that shouldn't be, you got nowhere to touch with the other meter lead.Last edited by Willie B; 01-03-2021 at 09:53 AM.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:The conductor being directly connected to a ground rod and the metal box is the path of least resistance compared to current flowing through your body. We are assuming the connections are made tight. Bob
Reply:I didn't think too much about the 120/240 grounding issues until I was up on the pole this summer changing out a dead yard light. Like most of the yard the buildings are connected above ground via triplex cables from the transformer/meter at the yard pole to the 2 houses, heated shop, and 2 sheds. For years I've thought nothing about getting close to the triplex since after all, if it was shorting, it would be shorting against the the dead aluminum cable in the center. So I'm up the pole and wondering how they are hooking a 120 volt light into a 240 triplex, and yep... off one hot leg and grounded to the aluminum cable. I guess I'm not usually working with wires at night when the light would be activated by it's light sensitive switch, but it sure made me think twice about touching that cable again...250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:In the early days of farmers being concerned with stray voltage, and it harming cattle, I had a farmer with a big problem. His cows had consistent leucocyte counts averaging 1.5 million. Healthy counts are under 80,000. At the time, I didn't have a meter sensitive enough to measure it, I had to buy one. His stray voltage was less than 1/10 volt. I can't feel voltage under 50, but this man took his foot out of sweaty boot, put it on the wet barn floor, he touched his tongue to the milk pipe. He could feel voltage. We tried everything including the power company disconnecting house & barn from power source. It didn't help. We then had phone company disconnect. That didn't help either. Power company installed a high impedance neutral bond to earth, didn't help.Next step was connect every conductive item in contact with cows to each other. Problem went away. We had a better electron path than through a cow.A year later neighbor's house had a water pump fail. Replaced water pump, stray voltage disappeared.There is a bunch of language & vocabulary problems in NEC. Grounding (I believe) should be labeled bonding. Nobody takes exception to bonding to reduce electrical shock. What we label equipment ground is a fault current path back to the transformer center tap. Nobody objects to that.Sam is right, turning the power off is best. Reality is, often bad installation, or maintenance causes this safety device to fail. having the earth bonded to conductive materials reduces the incidence & severity of electrical shock.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Raised pigs for over 30 yrs... I can't imagine touching my tongue to a pole in any barn.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:
Originally Posted by whtbaron
Raised pigs for over 30 yrs... I can't imagine touching my tongue to a pole in any barn.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I just sat through Mike Holt's video. He is correct. A driven ground rod is a damned poor terminal(code calls it an electrode)I absolutely agree a good current path back to the transformer is the only way to effectively clear a fault. I will give a personal example since I've never seen Sam's service: 40 years ago I ran underground power to my home. I chose to put a breaker at the power pole 160 feet away from the house. That enclosure connects to the power company transformer. Available current is very high before any fuse would blow.Here, all power poles with transformers have a #6 conductor from a driven rod to the center tap of the secondary of the transformer, and the lower of two high voltage conductors from the utility.At 40 years that enclosure is getting rusty, bugs have made it their home. Likelihood the wet organic matter in that box has made a conductor from hot leg to the box enclosure. Meanwhile, the termination of the bonding jumper has 40 years of oxidation. It's a good bet I could drive a second ground rod, and test from it to the outside of that box & read voltage.While I agree with Mike Holt & Sam, that ground rod is a pretty ineffective electrode to earth, the power company driven ground makes the earth a player in this electrical situation. I step up, and touch that box, electrons will flow from it through me to the earth, then back up ground conductor to the centertap of the transformer.If I connect that box to earth, that GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTOR becomes a preferred path for stray electrons. Fewer of them will flow through me.There are lots of situations where we bond everything conductive Pools, marinas, industrial facilities, hot tubs. Driven ground rods serve as a none too effective way to make conductive materials equipotential. Remember a volt meter has two leads. If everything that shouldn't be energized is connected to everything else that shouldn't be, you got nowhere to touch with the other meter lead.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I just sat through Mike Holt's video. He is correct. A driven ground rod is a damned poor terminal(code calls it an electrode)I absolutely agree a good current path back to the transformer is the only way to effectively clear a fault. I will give a personal example since I've never seen Sam's service: 40 years ago I ran underground power to my home. I chose to put a breaker at the power pole 160 feet away from the house. That enclosure connects to the power company transformer. Available current is very high before any fuse would blow.Here, all power poles with transformers have a #6 conductor from a driven rod to the center tap of the secondary of the transformer, and the lower of two high voltage conductors from the utility.At 40 years that enclosure is getting rusty, bugs have made it their home. Likelihood the wet organic matter in that box has made a conductor from hot leg to the box enclosure. Meanwhile, the termination of the bonding jumper has 40 years of oxidation. It's a good bet I could drive a second ground rod, and test from it to the outside of that box & read voltage.While I agree with Mike Holt & Sam, that ground rod is a pretty ineffective electrode to earth, the power company driven ground makes the earth a player in this electrical situation. I step up, and touch that box, electrons will flow from it through me to the earth, then back up ground conductor to the centertap of the transformer.If I connect that box to earth, that GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTOR becomes a preferred path for stray electrons. Fewer of them will flow through me.There are lots of situations where we bond everything conductive Pools, marinas, industrial facilities, hot tubs. Driven ground rods serve as a none too effective way to make conductive materials equipotential. Remember a volt meter has two leads. If everything that shouldn't be energized is connected to everything else that shouldn't be, you got nowhere to touch with the other meter lead.
Reply:
Originally Posted by William McCormick
Plasma tables require many ground rods as many as eight or ten. You should always put one by the TIG welder. Without a ground rod, you probably would not want to be standing in water while touching high frequency it could be the last thing you touch.
Reply:I was using the buzz box on some hog pens once. A ground burned off inside the machine and killed 3 pigs. I was holding the pen with a rubberized glove and wearing rubber boots. Didn't feel a thing...250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes |
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发表于 2021-9-1 23:16:24