P&H Tig

admin

I just came across a P&H Tig welder very cheap. The machine is AC only! Does anyone know where to find info on these welders? Can you succcesfully weld Thin mild steel on AC with a tig?
Reply:What color is the machine?Does it have a large cast aluminum foot pedal with a ceramic block resistor?I need the foot pedal if there's a spare laying around.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:It is a big yellow machine with P&H Chemetron on the front. On the little plate on the front that gives the amperage for each setting, it as a column for AC and the amps and a column for DC, but DC is all blank. Yes it does have a cast aluminum foot pedal.
Reply:That's a later vintage than mine.The schematic for the machine should be glued inside one of the side panels.  I don't think the machine is AC only, but the easiest way to confirm that would be to open it up and look for the rectifier, probably sylenium, and reactor.P&H machines are GREAT, BUT, the older units will suffer damage if they are dropped.  Definitely test drive before plunking down cash.  They produce a very nice TIG arc, and some of them will actually give you decent arc performence on stick as well.The hi freq tends to screw up when the points get crapped up, and it is usually fixable by cleaning and resetting the points.Yellow machines are the last production by P&H, so the machine could be late 60s to early 70s.  No support is available from the manufacturer, but that's not a problem since those machines work forever as long as you open them up and blow the dust accumulation out every year.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Should't there be an AC/DC switch on the panel?
Reply:Can't say for sure on a yellow machine, never got close to one.On the older machines there are 2 large rotary switches, one for range, and one for AC/DC/DCRP.It's possible they made some AC only models for customers who wanted them for Aluminum TIG welding.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:On the right side of the panel there is a hole with a plug that looks like it would take a big rotary switch. I weld 90% aluminum anyway, but I would like to weld some thin (1/16) mild steel. Will it give me a satifactory weld? Can a rectifier be added? By the way, some one had the bright idea to pull all the sheetmetal and paint it inside and out so no shematic.
Reply:Definitely sounds like it was an AC only machine, probably custom built for a customer.Adding just a rectifier won't give you the same DC you'd get with the recitifier and reactor.I really can't answer how the machine will weld steel with AC, having never done so.  Best answer would have to be light it up and see for yourself.Given the age of the machine, and limitations, how much does the seller want?  That would definitely be a deciding factor given the lo prices industrial AC/DC machines are bringing since the advent of inverters.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:500$ with all attachments
Reply:You do have the power to run that monster I take it?
Reply:Here, the market with torch, regulator, and water cooler would be $200- at best.  The machine is primarily built to be an aluminum TIG machine, and it doesn't have the bells and whistles the later machines do.  Since inverters have arrived the old boxes have very little value.Some adjustment to value may be made for your geographicle area.The last P&H I bought was complete as listed above, and I paid $75- for it.  That was an AC/DC machine, and it can suck 120 amps out of the power line at max current.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Tried the old dinaour P&H. I was suprised, after laying down the first aluminum bead I was ready to roll my Syncrowave in the lake. Franz, can you send some of those $200 welders, you can't get a used welder of any kind in Texas for 200.
Reply:I could send em, but the freight would kill ya.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:I looked at a P&H stick welder a few months back. Ernie on the welding newsgroup turned me away from it. He said it's impossible to get them fixed or get parts for them.axehind
Reply:Yea the freight would be a little rough.
Reply:I guess I better not tell you guys about the Thunderbolt I sold for $20- last summer, or you'll get all upset.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:

Originally Posted by Franz

What color is the machine?Does it have a large cast aluminum foot pedal with a ceramic block resistor?I need the foot pedal if there's a spare laying around.
Reply:Welcome to the forum Old Welder.

You do realize you just responded to a 5 year old thread right?


MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110

Save Second Base!
Reply:And got a response in 7 minutes, imagine that.
Reply:

Gotta love time warp!

MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110

Save Second Base!
Reply:...That foot pedal looks exactly like mine.....even cracked in the same place...likely from some clown dropping it on the concrete floor in the past...  My machine was made in 1956...300 amps Ac/Dc @60%, hi-freq...works quite well....as good as the newer lincoln and millers...minimum current maybe 3- 5 amps...I can weld the soda cans, and razor blades..runs SMAW pretty well, but not quite as nice as my SAE 200 or the Lincoln 'aircraft' gen-sets...pulls about 90 amps at 240 with max load on it...I can run 1/4" 7018 or even 1/4" 7024 ....or clear down to 1/16"  6013...  Bought this machine and several other Lincoln 225 AC/DC  tombstones and 4 gen-sets in 1980....from a guy closing up a shop....I used the P&H for all my TIG work for over 10 years running a welding shop, two TIG torches...225 and 400 amp units, welder has water tank and pump built into base on big wheels......never any problems...just blow out the dust now and then...    I'm guessing the early Lincoln and Miller pedals with big resistor might replace your broken unit...  I just found this thread from searching Google for P&H welders...looks like they stopped making them in the 1960's, now mostly  make the big mining stuff...and overhead bridge cranes...well known for the quality and durability of the bridge cranes...they last a long time...like the welders..Dougspair
Reply:...Oh...lest I forget....you're not likely to get a good weld on steel with AC...it's usually just for TIG on Aluminum or Magnesium....and...  Even though I've got a good background in electrical/electronics...I'd shy away from tryting to convert a AC only machine to D.C. Could get to be a big job and $$$ real quick...perhaps look for an old Lincoln 300/300....?Dougspair
Reply:...My P&H has schematic on inside of a hinged cover on the back...maybe after it stops raining..I'll go see if I can get a picture of it for you who are interested...Dougspair
Reply:I have an old 1950s P+H 400 amp straight AC machine. It came to me set up for stick welding and that's all I've ever used it for. Prior to using this machine I figured all of the nicest stick machines were DC output. This old AC P&H is as nice or nicer than any DC welder I've ever used, including a very good newish 500 AMP Miller DC.The P+H spent most of it's life in a truck body fabrication shop being used for construction of aluminium Gravel Truck boxes. They had it set up for TIG.A friend of mine worked at this company for a year or two. He said this machine was the crew favourite  out of 8 or ten various heavy duty Tig setups there. When the company closed up he scooped the old P+H, but the Tig setup was taken by others. I got the machine from him in a trade.What is required in order to set a machine like this up for TIG?Is it feasible to use a machine like this for Tig welding .065 wall 304 SS tubing? My current understanding is that DC is best for SS however it can also be tig welded on AC.Glen
Reply:Worntorn - Does the machine have high-frequency, gas control, and remote control capabilities? Or is it just a basic transformer-type  welder?Good LuckThe machine has a HF switch and control knob. When I turn the HF switch on and turn the knob up and down the sound changes from a low buzz to a loud hiss, so I think that system is working. It also has a four blade twist lock type receptacle labeled "Remote output control"Beside that it has another  receptacle, this one is for a four blade non twistlock and is   labeled "Contact control"Above the Remote output control receptacle is a small hole for a toggle switch that is labeled "Remote ouput"  The toggle switch is missing.Above the Contact control is a toggle switch that is labeled "Line Switch". This switch is in place.I don't see anything on the machine for gas control. Can this be accomplished with a tank regulator? I'll see if I can post a photo of the control panel.

Attached Images

Last edited by worntorn; 03-16-2010 at 01:11 AM.
Reply:You're well on the way.There's probably a gas valve nestled in there. If not, it wouldn't be a big deal to add one.Maybe make sure you have working HF current at the output, before getting too deep.The next step would be to decide if you need an air-cooled or water-cooled torch.You could try to contact member William (P&H) McCormick Jr, to see if he knows the whereabouts of a remote pedal.Good Luck
Reply:The 2 solonoid valves will be on the front of the machine just below the front pannel if they are still there.  Originally there was a flip up cover that protected the valves and associated lines.If you run the machine with a cooler you only need a gas valve.I can't tell from the pic, does that machine have round or fairly square corners?Last edited by Old Fart; 03-17-2010 at 02:18 AM.
Reply:This machine has rounded corners. I'll take a look today to see if the gas valve is still there.What is the "Contacter Control" used for? I'm hoping this is the circuit that turns the gas valve on and off from the pedal.Thanks for the helpGlenLast edited by worntorn; 03-17-2010 at 08:39 AM.
Reply:Operating only from onboard memory here at the moment, it appears you may have a 1st generation machine there.Gen 1 had 4 swing open hinged panels with hinges on the sides.  As I recall the fan is mounted at the top of the machine with the blade horizontal.I know of only 1 left inthe world, and that one is headed for scrap due to a main transformer problem.  Fortunately, it hasn't gone yet and I can probably pull parts from it.The contactor control operates a magnetic contactor that powers and depowers the main transformer when the machine is in TIG mode.
Reply:OF, mine has the swing open piano hinged panels that you describe. I had a look in there today. There is  lots of hardware in there but no sign of a gas valve.  Any idea what the hole on the right side of the machine panel was for? I can't quite make out the label other than the word "outlet" which might indicate it was for a 110Volt outlet for running a portable grinder etc.I'm thinking it might be worthwhile to  get the machine functioning as a TIG welder again since a 400 amp TIG welder could come in very handy on thicker Aluminium. I've read that the rule of thumb power requirement for tig welding Aluminium is 10 amps for ever ten thou of material thickness. At that rate a 200 amp machine is only capable of welding 3/16 thick al.Any thoughts on using a straight AC machine like this for tig welding thin wall SS 304?Glen
Reply:You are the owner of a very rare generation 1 P&H, one of 2 machines I know of that vintage to still exist.First, I'm going to advise you to make sure the machine is still worth more than parts since the other one I know of is headed for the scrapper because it rolled over a 1" drop and lost a power transformer connection.  Those machines have gotten to the point of being fragile.Yes, there is a 110 volt outlet on the machine.  DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT USING IT!That outlet is powered from the machine control transformer and it is NOT fused for protection of the transformer.  You let the smoke out of that transformer and you are screwed.  If it was my machine I'd cut the wires going to that plug and tape them up.There should be a complete schematic for the machine either varnished to the bottom of the top cover or inside one of the door pannels.
Reply:No worries about me using the 110 volt receptacle, someone has already removed it, just the hole left there now. Thanks for the warning though, I won't think about reinstalling the 110volt.I just used the machine to make some trial stick welds on SS .090 sheetmetal. They are near flawless and would be flawless once I burn thru a few rods to get back in the groove.It's fun to chip the slag off and see a weld like that, makes we wonder why I am spending all of this time learning to TIG.I doubt I will ever make TIG welds that are as nearly pretty as these easy to do stick welds.This old P&H is the best arc welder I've ever used, without a doubt.Very nice current control even on extremely low settings. Will it TIG as nicely as it does stick?How about the fact that this machine is straight AC, does that present a problem for doing stainless?
Reply:denrep , is that u in your avataris this the machine............it looks like a dinasaur

Attached Images

        thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3
Reply:crap , sorry buds , i was on page 1...........too much sprayn' today        thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3
Reply:that machine looks postively modern compared to mine!Glen
Reply:

Originally Posted by woi2ld

denrep , is that u in your avataris this the machine............it looks like a dinasaur
Reply:I'm looking for a foot pedal and  a gas valve for mine if you have those.thanksGlen
Reply:Glen, where are located?
Reply:I'm on the outskirts of Vancouver BC in a rural area called Langley. Our farm is  just about 1,000 feet north of the Canada US Border. The closest US destination is Lynden,  Washington which is about ten minutes from my place.Glen
Reply:Damn, you'd be better off in Alaska, at least Customs wouldn't get involved.Do they still fall for the wrapped Birthday Gift trick?The machine I can get to is in NY by Lake Ontario.
Reply:Customs is no problem, I go thru all the time no charge. I get things sent by UPS or US Mail Flat rate to a depot in Lynden then do the pickup and border crossing. The only time Customs gets interested is if the invoice is over $200, then they haul me in to pay taxes.I restored a couple of Ossa dirt bikes last summer and made 8 or ten parts orders, always keeping the invoice below $200. Early on I asked a Customs agent what the magic number was and he told me they weren't interested  in any invoice under the $200. This worked great, no taxes, no duty!  Glen
Reply:Went hands on with the generation 1 today.It is not equipped with solonoids for gas or water, only has 1/2-13 studs emerging from the machine for torch & work leads.Aparently the solonoids weren't added until generation 2Here's what the front panel looks like without the corrosion.

Attached Images


Reply:OF, thanks for putting the photo up. I did get thru to William McCormick and all he has left of the foot pedals is one broken/robbed unit. From what WelderSales posted the type of footpedal used is unique to the P+H  so I  should try to track down one of these.What looks like corrosion on the front of my machine is actually sawdust. I have a woodworking shop and this machine sits fairly close to a triple head oscillating 48" Yates American sander. Once in awhile I forget to start the dust collector before sanding and the amount of dust created in an minute or so of sanding is immense.So does the footpedal come with two plugs on the end, one to go to the "Remote Output Control" receptacle and one to the "Contactor Control" receptacle?Where would I take power off to control a Gas Valve?Also, how is postflow accomplished? I'm guessing it would be controlled/set at the gas valve since there is no control knob for this on the machine.
Reply:P&H is DIFFERENT from most TIG machines you'll come across on the footpedal.  Since they were one of the first to market that stands to reason.Yes, the pedal uses 2 cords & 2 plugs to the panel.  One plug is the resistance and the other is the on/off switch.  There is a complexity rating of about 2 on a scale of 10.Pre/postflow is something a lot easier to accomplish with modern electronics than it was back in the 50s.  Back then it was probably done by using DC on the solonoid and sticking a capacitor across the coil for delayed closing.  I'm not sure.  The Gen 1 machine does have an adjustable Hayden timer in it, and that has to be there for a reason, trouble is the schematic for the machine is mostly gone so I don't have a hope in hell of reading the circuitry.The cheap & easy way would be to put the solonoid across the coil of the main relay for the machine with a switch to disable gas when not in TIG mode.Sawdust I'm unfortunately conversant with.  I helped take apart a wood pallet/boat/churchfurniture plant in 02.  That place had a 10 foot ceiling mounted belt sander, and I don't think they bothered picking up dust ffrom 98 on after the city shut down their woodfired boiler.  I just might still be carrying dust from that job.  We disassembled the whole place using genset power because the Electric bill didn't get paid and the electric company cut the wires.  Don't take it personal but I hate wood plants.
Reply:I own a P&H model TH-200 ac arc welder with H/F. This welder has been in my family for over 50 yrs. and I have used it just for stick welding for over 30 yrs. I am setting it up to TIG weld and have checked every thing out on the machine and everything on it looks to be working. The only question I have is what is the correct gap for the H/F contacts, they now are set at .006, is this right? I have removed them and cleaned all of the contact surfaces, but is this H/F gap ok to weld with?   AL
Reply:Please God tell me you didn't grind them back flat.Generally a P&H will be about .012 to .020 on the points.  Closer means they erode faster.There's no hard & fast rule on setting beyond trying to acheive arcing across most of the surface without being close enough to cause erosion.Model numbers really don't mean a lot since every P&H was built to customer order specs.  Throw a picture of the machine up.
Reply:No I did not grind them, I used some 600 grit emery cloth just to remove a small amount of corrosion that was on the contacts. One set of contacts has a full arc but the other is arcing about 80%. The .006 that they were set at did seem a little to close so I will adjust them to the gap that you suggested. I will also try to get a picture of my welder posted but I will need one of my kids to show me how to do it.......The welder looks just like the other A/C machine that is pictured at the top of the 2nd.page, but it is in much better shape. Thank you for the information.  AL
Reply:I finally got around to gearing up the old P&H for TIG. Got a 200 amp aircooled torch with flex head and valve (Ebay $25) and an adapter block, so this is a "Tozzi Rig". The last time this machine was used for TIG welding was probably around 1975 when it was used in the production line for aluminium gravel boxes at Knight Trailers in Langley.It sat for about ten years then I picked it up and have used it quite a lot for stick welding.I didn't know what to expect since this is my first try at aluminium. The HF must be working OK as the starts were easy, just bring it within 1/4" of the work and it lights up.The arc was very smooth.With no pedal ,the only way to shut it off is to lift at the end of the bead. A pedal would be nice, as would a water cooler if I get into heavier stuff.Other than that, I think I have a good machine here and 400 amps may come in handy!

Attached Images




Reply:

Originally Posted by Fussyist

No I did not grind them, I used some 600 grit emery cloth just to remove a small amount of corrosion that was on the contacts. One set of contacts has a full arc but the other is arcing about 80%. The .006 that they were set at did seem a little to close so I will adjust them to the gap that you suggested. I will also try to get a picture of my welder posted but I will need one of my kids to show me how to do it.......The welder looks just like the other A/C machine that is pictured at the top of the 2nd.page, but it is in much better shape. Thank you for the information.  AL