Shop rates???

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Guys, I was talking to a friend this afternoon, and we got to talking about what going rates were in our area and I just thought I would ask on here.  You fellows that are proffesionals.  What are you charging per hour for shop and/or field work.  Do you charge more for Aluminum or stainless than carbon?   I pretty much run $40/per hour billed by the half hour with a one hour minumum, and aluminum and stainless a I get $45.00.    Just curious as to how our area stacks up against the other parts of the country.  ~Jackson
Reply:Hammack,our shop rates(central Cal.) are 85/hour shop, 95/hr alum in shop, 110/hr field.
Reply:Damn I need to move to West Coast...  But on the East Coast we get all we can get. The saying is Time is Money so if you Bid a job and work your butt off you can knock down $150.00 an hour. But at my shop it's $45.00 to take my time. $65.00 if you have already worked on it, and $75.00 if you want to Help. Thats just for carbon.
Reply:do y'all do a charge for the truck/ welding rig?  Thats worked for me pretty well.Chris
Reply:Wow, you guys on the west coast are getting paid.  I don't think our area could support anything like that.  TxRedneck, no one around here charges for the rig, but most charge for the trip on field work.   I do have a few clients that if I go to there shop to work on something I will knock off some just for not having to pay for my own gas and rods etc...  I do three times as much field work as I do in the shop because the majority of my clients are loggers and farmers, and usually if I bring it back to the shop it is something pretty serious due to the size of the equipment and what it takes to move the stuff.    I usually get $1.50 per mile plus my time starts when i leave the shop until the job is completed. Not to mention with gas prices going up I probably will be going up in the near future.  ~Jackson
Reply:whre im at currently in bc they generally do it by hour for labor and for rig, or atleast the guys ive worked with.  Im told this is how there doing it in ab and so I guess that may be where the trend comes from.  anyway, good to know.  Always looking for differnt angle to kinda satisfy my customers.CHRIS
Reply:Hammack, just got to thinkin, you say $1.5/mile?  Are you just real close or do they realy pay out the azz in mileage.  See if I were to charge something like that well it would be kinda high.  Just the distances can get kinda far,  not too bad.  But realistically when they are paying more for the driving time then they are for the hourly rate I would think folks get pissed.  Whats your take on this?  Or do you just live close enough it dont matter none.   Thanks for the inputCHRIS
Reply:In NZ we charge per mile plus hourly rate on top, but that west coast thing sound's good!  Rates here very from $45 to $65 an hour rig on top $80 a day and $1.36 a mile (but that will go up soon)Stephen
Reply:Tx,  Yea I know what you're thinking on that. I felt like that myself when I first got in business, but it has been the standard practice in this area since way before I started.  I think the two thoughts were one, to encourage people bringing it into the shop, and two, the 1.50 pays for the gas and wear and tear on the truck and welding trailer, and the hour rate pays what you would be making if you were not driving, but in the shop working.  seemed a little excessive to me but if the area supports it I say get what you can.  Also around here alot of times dealing with the logging companies your equipment will take alot more abuse than just road mileage. As far as distances some of my logging clients its not uncommon to drive for 120miles round trip, but I will be the first to admit I have a very good group of clients also.  I look after them and they are good about looking after me.  I have a few friends that say I charge to much, but when they go out on a job with me their mind ususally changes.  The heat index was 106 yesterday and the humidity was thru the roof not to mention I had to be pulled into a swamp (truck and trailer) with a skidder just to get to a busted  loader so they could get it up and moved.  Not to mention fighting the mosquitos, and creepy crawling things, so to me it seems worth it. hehehe
Reply:I'm getting $60 hr shop and $90 hr for field work. The loggers around here try to fix there own first. Then they call. Should look into a mileage charge also. A 200mile round trip isn't uncommon. I charge a travel time thats pre set. Normally mapquest with a extra hr or 2. I'm in Upper Michigan.Brett B & B Fabrication and Welding Inc.Spalding, MI.
Reply:A friend here in West GA charges $20 per 15 minute intervals (simple walk-ins), or $50 per hour in shop.  For specialty metals (stainless and aluminum) he generally quote an hourly rate higher than $50, but it depends on the job.  He quotes field work based on difficulty (which includes his difficulty dealing with the people he is doing the work for), metal, conditions, and how the fellow is dressed (I kid you not).  He says that wearing a clean shirt and a tie adds $10 per hour to the job.I only weld for friends and family, so I generally get supper, tickets to braves games, or beer.  That's pretty ok with me, though.  If they gave me money, I'd just have to spend my precious time shopping for beer anyway.As for mileage, if I were having to drive to a site, I would charge based on mileage.  At least to recoup gas money.  I think 37.5 cents per mile is the standard depreciation rate on a vehicle in taxes, so that is what the government says driving is costing you per mile on average.  My guess is that with the cost of trucks and the amount of gas they use, you could safely triple that and still be under the actual cost in wear-and-tear, fuel, unproductive time, insurance, etc.  If you dont recoup these, you are giving yourself a pay cut.  Mileage and overhead are common charges in all industries.Last edited by smithboy; 08-16-2005 at 12:44 PM.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Sounds pretty good, but now youve gotta explain the 40/hr.  See I got pretty used to do ing there where Im at right now, but more than anything got to do wiht the fact that if you dont go with something more reasonable folks just wont pay.   Ive had a lot of trouble with that.   But I would think, especially with the conditioins your in you could fetch a better rate.  Is this a going rate over there on the georgia/alabama line?  I guess everything relates to cost of living.  Thanks for all the input guys This is good.CHRIS
Reply:Cost of living makes a huge difference.  Out here in my part of California one can't generally contract any kind of skilled labor for less than $85/hr.  People aren't getting rich, though.  They're just paying more taxes and wishing they could afford that small three-bedroom house that costs a half-million or more.-Heath
Reply:TxRedneck, Yes the $40/hr is pretty much the average here.  In my area there are not alot of welders, only about four or five shops that know what they are doing in probably a 75 mile radius that deals in repair.  In my county and the surrounding three counties there is one shop per county.  I am kind of in the middle of the road as far as the hour rate.  One guy here is $45/hr, but he marks supplies, steel, parts everything WAYYYYYYYYY up to the point most of his stuff is outrageously high priced.  He does alot of work for the tractor and equipment dealerships etc.. who just pay the bills and pass it on to their own customer because they know that they have to have it.  The other side is you have a fab shop that only charges $30/hr, but you will get a $6.00/hr welder who only knows to pull a trigger and run a bead where it is broken.  I kind of fill in the gap between the two.  I can handle any welding needs, design, or troubleshooting as well as the machine work, which is a whole other story.  I will say that depending on the Job conditions (and yes sometimes customers attitude) the price may go up.  I will help any of my clients when they need it, but if you want me to go out on a job after 6:00 or on Saturday or Sunday then it's gonna cost ya.  I found out that early on.  They got where they would limp a busted piece of equipment all week to shut it down and expect you to work all weekend to get it fixed then wanna bitch when you would have to take off a day during the week to get your own stuff looked after.  Our area would never go for much more than $40/hr on a labor rate for basic carbon steel welding.  I just don't think they could afford it.  I am sure that cost of living has alot to do with it.  Great to hear from the different areas and what people are upto.  All this makes me think of the sign on my shop wall.       "We offer three kind of jobs here."a good cheap job, a quick good job, and a cheap quick job."with that said" a good cheap job won't be quick, a quick  good job won't be  cheap, anda cheap quick job won't be good."Take your Pick"
Reply:Made me think of an EX client, had to drive miles to the job (steam pipe) took two day's to do. I looked after him really well with prices on part's rates etc, got the job done then sent the bill. Three or four months later the cheque arrived.   Next time he rung he paid the very full price for the lot! And took three or four month's to pay again.I was talking to a mate a few months later and while I was talking to him his phone went. Same guy, he told me now whenever he goes their he doesn't leave without a cheque. It's a pain but.....
Reply:Well Ive learned the hard way Wire.   When I moved to this place my brotehr in law got me a hook up on some folks to do work for.  Lots of contracts.  Most of them paid on time, but none of them paid like I thought they should have.  Not really sure why they dont.  But I couldnt get work the right way so this worked.  Had my own rig and stuff so it was only natural.  There was one guy I did more work for then anyone else.  However, the jerk is really slow to pay. His last bill was for $1150.  I took $500 before I left for Tex last time back in May.  Told him I expected payment in July.  Well here it is Aug and no money.  he be giving me the round about.  never returns calls, and tries to avoid answering the phone when I call.  Only way I catch him is when I hide my number or if his daughter from college answers the phone.  It really sucks you know.  Anyway, this happens, sometimes people really wnat your work, and really dont want to pay you!CHRIS
Reply:I have a portable welding business and after 5 years only been stuck twice. Give them your hourly rate, If they agree explain that payment is due at the end of each days work or the next days work will not get started until payment is recieved. This way you never get stuck for more than one days work. Once you have built a longer relationship with them you may allow them to to go week to week but never 30 days or more. I never got stuck for more than a couple hundred dollars.  If they know your limitations going in they will try to work with you.
Reply:Shortstop, That is good if you can do that, but around here that isn't always possible.  Because you may be on four different sites a day, and working for companies that have to cut checks thru the office.  yes I could go to the office and pick up a check, but then it cuts me out two hours on a job I could be working on.    Honestly, I have never had much trouble getting paid.  I am lucky in that I happened to get into the business when two of the old timers were retiring, and they sent their clients to me, and that allowed me to pick and choose who i wanted to work for, and now I have a set number of clients that keep me more work than I can do, so I am very lucky in that aspect.  Only other work I do is some prototype work for a material handling company, and usually I build the prototypes and subcontract out the fab work to a larger shop and pull a percentage off the top.  This has turned out to be a good post learning about the different views and situations around the world.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Many states give weldors the option of filing a mechanic's lien for unpaid labor.  It doesnt guarantee payment, but it does guarantee a hassle for the deadbeat client.  Often it involves being unable to issue a clear title on a piece of property.  Have any of you ever looked into how easy it is to file.  Most places requires a very small fee and a single piece of paperwork at the courthouse where the client is.  If you are working on a new construction, this gives you some power when/if the property changes hands.  In some states you can charge fairly good interest also.  Small claims court also is an option but requires a little more work and time.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Thanks Smith, but as Im in a foreign country at the moment this isnt practical for me.  Its alright though, my sister in-law said If the jerk doesnt pay shell go bug him till he does.  My brother in law said hell go pay the guy a visit and perhaps bring me something back. Hopefully it doesnt come to that cause id rather my money than his tools.  Well thanks guysCHRIS
Reply:Dang, Chris, I forgot where you were.  I guess north of the border still means Texas to me.  In welding school, were any of you guys taught anything about running a small business, cash flow, accounting or collecting debts?  Because I took my courses in high school, none of this was ever mentioned.  I have read a lot of questions about the office part of the business of welding, and it makes me wonder if this is something that should be stressed more in school or addressed in some form in a very accessible way.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Smithboy, I have never had any fromal welding training, but I agree whole heartedly, that anyone in any from of education, welding or otherwise, should have to take some form of business classes if nothing but a basic tax class, and/or business class.  With taxes the way they are these days, and the way people are incurring debt and/or not getting paid themselves it would definitely help them in the long run whether they were an employer or employee.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I agree with Jackson, however, the college I attended, and it was an actual jr college in Texas, the welding degree program held nothing to do with running a business. It was an associates of sciences degree so it envolved taking psych and speech, and a science and math and I believe some humanities, cant remember what they are,  english, but nothing regarding business.  I regret not taking some of these classes.  I will hopefully be able to take them soon, but time and money is always a big deal for me. good luck guysCHRIS
Reply:It just dawned on me that this might be a good place for this info:I work in economic development for the state of GA, so I come into contact with lots of different kinds of folks in all kinds of business activities.  We, in GA, have all kinds of tax incentives to attract business to the state, but most small buisness owers dont know about this stuff.  It ends up being the big guy that reaps all of the benefits, because they have an accountant or a tax attorney that keeps up with incentives.  For example, Jackson, I bet you live in a tier 1 or 2 county in GA.  Did you know that if you employ new folks (there is a lower limit, but it's pretty low, and you have to provide a certian level of benefits, but yours are included) you can get back money from the state for the creation of these jobs and the money is pretty good.  The state is paying you to expand your business in the state.  There is time involved in documenting and paperwork, but folks at the state will help with that to.  Many states have these in place.  I know most of your business are 1-man operations, but some are 2-5 men and this gets in the range of interest.  If you can call yourself manufacturing (most weldors can do this legitimately) you are what most states are looking to attract.  The reason I mention this here is that when you are all talking about shop rates and pay, this provides at least some of you an opportunity to expand your business and increase your pay.  Below is georgia's tax credit, but were ever you are, there is probably something similar.  In GA, the credit can be worth $3500 per new employee per year.http://www.dca.state.ga.us/economic/...g_and_Maps.pdfLast edited by smithboy; 08-19-2005 at 12:35 PM.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Smithboy, That is some good info,  As of now I am a one man operation you can say,  a few part time help at times but nothing I can claim.  I am actually in one of the poorest counties in the state so no one around here knows anything about the incentives.  That is actually something I have been looking into a bit because I am planning to hire someone full time around the first of the year.   I am going next week to talk to an accountant for that very reason of finding out my options as far as expanding.  Thanks for the link.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......I just checked out that link, You are right, I am in a Tier 1 county as is everyone that surrounds it.  I will definitely be looking more into that info.  Thanks again.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Jackson, as a very small business owner what do you do regarding coming up with health insurance.  How bad are taxes for you?  I kinda avoid these things.  With insurance these days I dont know how I can afford do my business full time. Right now part time is fine with me.    Well appreciate your input.  CHRIS
Reply:Chris, as far as health insurance goes I have only a hospitilazation policy which covers anything serious that may occur.  Health insurance is so high that I don't see how any individual can afford it on an average wage.  However what I do keep is a very good supplamental Insurance policy.  It pays me my daily income if I am unable to work for each day that I am out.  To me right now that is more important than health insurance because I can pay the dr. bills or whatever if I can just make my weekly income.  Basically I come out better off on the insurance than i do working because I get my weekly amount and since I did not work I don't have the expenses (rods, gas, etc...) to pay for.  Of course there is limitations of how long you can draw for, but as of right now anything that would keep me out of work long enough for my supplamental to run out, I would be more than likely in the hospital, and which would be covered under that policy.   Hopefully you understand what I am saying.  The other thing is that I always have a nest egg.  I take 10% of any net amount, whether it is $100 or $.01 I get from a job and put it in savings.  You always have to have something to fall on if things get bad.  As I have said before, I am very lucky in my business.  I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.  I am considered a one man operation, but my father is retired and has an engineering degree, and who is a very capable welder/machinist who can help out anywhere I need him, and I also have a couple of friends that work a swing shift and they work part time if I need them for cash ofcourse.  So that definitely helps me out as far as carrying alot more workload than I can handle myself. As far as taxes I honestly am not extremely bad for a few reasons.  My feelings on that is before I pay the gov't I will pay myself, so I usually purchase something every year if for nothing but a tax deduction.  I mean you are going to spend the money one way or the other you might as well spend it on something you can make money on.  Not only does that benefit from a tax incentive, it helps stock me with equipment to help down the road.  Mygoal is to one day have a shop in the range of four to five full time guys, and I can fill in where needed and handle the business end.  Its alot easier to buy the equipment all along than it is to have to go borrow money for when you want to expand.  Also I claim my truck for business use as well as personal which also ranks a pretty good deduction considering the amount of miles I cover for business every year.  Another thing is that I do not have to keep workers compensation insurance because I do not have enough employees.  However I do have all of the people who work with me sign a waiver that clears me if they get hurt.  Basically they assume responsibility for themselves.   There is a down side to this though.  For one Since I pay my part time guys cash, I have to claim what I pay them as income and pay taxes on it myself.My main negative at the moment is facilities.    I have alot of good equipment, but shop is where I lack.  I am in the process of building a new shop, but I am the kind that I don't borrow money.  I never buy anything unless I can pay for it.  I try to keep my business to the level that if I had to quit, I could shut the door on my shop and go work for someone, and still own my shop equipment.  My shop has me to the point that I can't handle anymore work without expanding my facilities, and since I am buying material all along for it, I will be building for a while, but I don't have to worry about losing my business either.  Hope that answers some of your questions, I am sure some others do things alot different or perhaps better but I have always say go with what works, and as of now it seems to work for me.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:thanks partner,  do appreciate the info.  Big help,  thanksCHRIS
Reply:Redneck lives in one of the worst areas of Western Canada for bad debts.  There was a tale going around kelowna about one pair of drywall brothers in desperation hung the apartment owner out a second story window until he agreed to pay.   My tiling contractor told me a tale of chasing a guy for months with a supeaona until his secretarty let it slip he was in town.  She got fired.The guy who did some stucco repair for me said that anytime he is suspicious about payment he sets a wire under the wire mesh on the wall before stuccoing.  One simply comes by at night, attaches a rope to the tail of the wire, drives away and ZIP the wall is removed.A bricklayer leaves a pane of glass in his chimneys.  A customer is very inclined to pay when his fireplace backs up.  A rock down the chimney solves the problem.When I first moved there in the seventies a backhoe operator got so frustrated he parked between two finished houses in the development and started swinging his boom.  He was arrested of course.The funniest I read about was in Point Roberts.  It is a small penninsula of land that juts below the 49th parrallel from Canada.  This Canadian contractor who used to do road work was down with his grader.  After demanding payment and not getting satisfaction. He backed down the newly paved road and dropped his ripper tooth hanging on the back.  The developer call the cops.   I love American cops, they are so macho!   They chased the guy to the border in their police cars shooting out his tires and radiator but the guy made it across the border into Canada.It ain't nice out there and I always pay cash immediately after the work is done.  I feel for the small guy trying to make a living.
Reply:I worked for a company here in Utah and we traveled into the surounding states alot. Somtimes the mileage charge would be three or four times the charge for the work. If we could we would call other customers in the area and get other jobs lined up then we could split the driving costs between jobs.
Reply:up here in northern ontario, i charge out my truck and myself at 80.00 an hour. If i do jobs in my shop i generally charge 60.00 .  Most of the jobs are in the field and for big mining companies so payment is not an issue,usually within a month.