mig wire tension

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hi, i am new to the site and new to welding, luckily found it because i need some help.when i start a fillet weld, everything goes smoothly for about the first inchor so, and then the wire appears to suck back into the gun.  I checked the tightness of the wing nut on the spool, and the spring that controls the tension of the wire.  could welding outside be a cause?  also, i had a few fillet welds that looked really good, but a few wacks of the hammer and it popped off - i even started a second pass on both sides.  when i look at the bottom of the piece that broke off, the weld is flat like it didn't even penetrate the lower plate.  is my amperage to low?i have a lincoln sp-135 plus, and i had my amperage on G and was welding on about 1/8th inch steel.   any suggestions?
Reply:on the higher settings 1/8th inch shouldn't be a problem but what your describing sounds like you wire speed is to slow. it should sound similiar to frying bacon. but to answer about wire tension, you should have the tension tight enough that if you cut the wire off flush with the gun and set the nozzle on the floor that when you pull the trigger you can feel it pushing up against your hand
Reply:what wire size are you using and what shield gas?and do you have a pic of the weld?Last edited by chopper5; 10-09-2006 at 01:10 AM.ChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:If you're running flux core you're wire speed is gonna be slower than running gas.  On my little Lincon 100 I crank the heat and the wire is on 3.  Check your tip, a wore out tip or a bit of spatter can cause some problems with feeding.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:thanks for your reply.  i am using argon co2 shielding gas. i am using .035 wire. (just the normal copper coated for steel) i will send you a pic shortly if you are still interested in helping me....thanks again, kyle Attached ImagesLast edited by kyyyyyle; 10-09-2006 at 06:24 PM.Reason: added pics
Reply:some of the welds that look very similar to this i can't get off no matter how hard i hit it with a hammer, and others like the one in the pic just pop off with a few taps.  some of the beads even come off the base metal and the square rod in the pic; like it isn't penetrating into anything...?
Reply:dont build your weld up so much if your welding 1/8 stock then all you need is a 1/8 fillet weld looks like your were letting your pudel get to fare in front of youChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:no penetration at all..more heat.. keep the feed the same..go slower..and clean the metal as best you can first....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I see something on the upper portion of the first pic that looks like poor gas coverage. Looking from the bottom of the welds it looks like zero penetrarion and awfully cold on the heat. Porus as the dickens too. One of your bigger problems based on the photos only is the metal you're welding on. Like zap says clean it up. It looks like the original mill scale plus some rust combined there. Solid wire isn't going to tolerate that well.So for starters clean up the metal, turn up the heat, check for the right polarity for solid wire. Also make sure you aren't trying to run off some 100 foot 18 awg cord. Think seriously about getting some .030 wire instead of .035.Have fun now.
Reply:okay, so clean the metal and turn up the heat.  (and i should probably  weld inside the garage and not outside ) why the smaller wire?
Reply:why the smaller wire?
Reply:I know what it is!  You can't weld to wood!!!  Sorry, everyone else is giving good advise I had to state the obvious. Maybe I've had to many Budweisers this morning.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Welding to clean metal is much better than trying to weld to metal that is not clean.  Remember, you are trying to meld METAL.  Mill-scale and rust are not metal.  But I don't think that is the only problem here, or even the main problem.To weld metal with a wire feed welder, you have to melt the wire -AND- the base material.  If you don't get the heat into the base material and just melt the wire on top of the base material, you are just piling up melted wire and not welding to the base material.  You need to melt the base material and not just "caulk" the melted wire on top of it.Welding penetration is when you melt into the base material and hence get the metal pieces to join together after the molten metal from the base pieces and the melted wire all melt together and then solidify.The pics show that the wire melted (obviously), but the base material didn't.  So you have no penetration, a 'cold' weld just sitting on top of the base material, just 'caulked' on top of it.  You didn't weld anything, all you did was melt the wire on top of the base material.Slow down your hand moving the torch and allow the heat to melt into the base material.  Watch the little molten puddle of metal and allow that puddle to sit for a heart-beat or so before you are slowly advancing the torch.  If you are getting that much melted wire build-up on your test welds and no penetration, I think you have your wire-feed speed up way too high AND you are moving the torch along much too fast as well.Are you -sure- you are using 0.035 solid-core MIG wire?  The Lincoln website says that the machine comes with a spool of 0.025 L-56 SuperArc wire, which   is copper-coated.  A common flux-core wire size for that class of small machine is 0.035 wire (Lincoln's product is NR-211 InnerShield), Lincoln's NR-211 wire is not copper coated.The reason for not doing MIG welding outside is that even a slight breeze will blow the shielding gas away from the welding zone.  You need to be in a draft/breeze free area to do MIG/GMAW welding.  The flux-core wire generally tolerates a bit of outside breeze much better than the MIG process.Like Sandy said, 0.030 solid-core wire is more within the capabilities of those smaller machines.  Although the specs and manuals on the machine list 0.035 solid-core wire as applicable, 0.030 solid-core is more in keeping with the machine's amp capability.  The machines do generally handle 0.035 flux-core wire OK.Also, double-check the polarity on the wire.  Inside the door on the Lincoln there is a picture showing which way to hook-up the polarity for MIG or flux-core.  You need the polarity to be DC-EP for MIG and DC-EN for flux-core.Also, although the info on the SP-135-Plus indicates using the GMAW process for 1/8 inch material, the owner's manual and the diagram inside the unit do not indicate using MIG/GMAW for material thicker than 12 gauge (0.105 inch) thick, but list settings for 0.035 flux-core for the thicker than 12 gauge materials.I've been doing some 1/8 inch material using flux-core and a 120V-class machine, and it seems to be within the capabilities of the machine and wire.  I haven't tried GMAW with the 120V-class machines on 1/8 inch material yet.Also, have you been holding the torch tip at the correct distance and orientation to the work as you are welding?  The recommended distance from the tip of the torch (the copper tip of the contact tip itself, not the far tip of the wire!) to the workpiece is 3/8 inch to 1/2 inch.  When things are set right and moving along at the right pace, the sound of the welding is described as a "frying bacon" sound.  If you hold the torch too far away from the workpiece, the sound changes to a more "hissing" sound instead of the crackling/frying sound.On the SP-135-Plus, the "G" is the voltage stting, not the wire speed.  The wire speed is numbered 1-10 and is what controls the amperage.  For 1/8 inch material with that class of machine, you probably need to set the voltage to MAX, and the wire speed to about half-way or so.  Try some test welds, evaluate them, and fine-tune the settings as needed.  Remember that wire speed is what is controlling the amps and hence heat, some faster wire speeds mean more amps and heat for thicker materials and slower wire speed is less amps and heat for thinner materials.
Reply:thanks for all the info.  i will probably try .030.  i know that the metal is suppose to melt as well, it was just that the wire was building up on me so fast, and when i turned down the wire speed it seemed to be coming out not fast enough, but i will practice with that a little more.  the torch tip is the proper distance.  will i see a puddle form as in oxy acetelyne welding.  not in the same way, but will my molten puddle be the same glossy surface. (basically, should it look like it is melting into the metal)?
Reply:You got a lot of good advice, let me throw my hat in the ring as well...  From your pics the weld is too cold, it is shaped like an earthworm, very convex. Ideally in a fillet weld the finished bead should be a flat 45 degree between the two pieces of metal to be joined.  You are going to have to practice on some scrap metal 'till you get heat and wire speed dialed in.   Just to help you set up, polarity on the machine is DC-Reverse Polarity, or DC-EP. This simply means the direction the negatively charged electrons are travelling is from the work to the gun. This is the recommended setup for solid wire.  If your wire speed is too slow, you will hear it snapping and popping as the too slow wire is intermittantly melted too the work. As you bring up the speed it will smooth out, and you should be rewarded by a steady sizzling sound. Increase the speed further and you add more material and heat to the work. Too far and the machine can no longer keep up with the wire, it may push your gun back, and actually short to the work.   Your stickout should be 1/4" to 3/8", keep the gun at a 45 degree to the work, with about a 10 degree back angle towards the completed weld. Keep the arc in the leading edge of the puddle, and allow the puddle to build up as you draw it back along the joint. A little practice and you wil be on the money.   Just be careful to keep the heat from burning through the work, from the pics the material doesn't appear to be very thick. Good Luck!!
Reply:Originally Posted by kyyyyylehi, i am new to the site and new to welding, luckily found it because i need some help.when i start a fillet weld, everything goes smoothly for about the first inchor so, and then the wire appears to suck back into the gun.  I checked the tightness of the wing nut on the spool, and the spring that controls the tension of the wire.  could welding outside be a cause?  also, i had a few fillet welds that looked really good, but a few wacks of the hammer and it popped off - i even started a second pass on both sides.  when i look at the bottom of the piece that broke off, the weld is flat like it didn't even penetrate the lower plate.  is my amperage to low?i have a lincoln sp-135 plus, and i had my amperage on G and was welding on about 1/8th inch steel.   any suggestions?
Reply:From ClanWeld..."If your wire speed is too slow, you will hear it snapping and popping as the too slow wire is intermittantly melted too the work."I've been lurking on here for a few months and just learning to weld for maybe twice that time. I appreciate all of the great information I get from you guys.Anyway. I've got the HD3200 welder. I wish I had thought about it a little more and gotten the sp-175, but for now, it's what I have.It does seem to me that I'm at the limits of the welder when I weld 1/8 mild steel. It makes good welds, but everything has to be just right. I'm using the welder at the highest voltage setting (D) and a wire (.025) speed of (7) and argon/CO2 gas and the joints are clean of mill scale and oil. Cleaning the joints makes a big difference.Everything you guys are saying fits exactly with my experience with my setup.One of the things I've been wondering about is, sometimes, I get a popping sound while welding. I knew that meant something wasn't right, but I didn't know whether  I needed to change the wire speed up or down, voltage, distance, gas flow, wire size, or what. It sounds like I need to boost the wire speed up just a bit.James
Reply:thank you for all the info.  yea, that was a good question (above) how do i exactly know whether the wire speed needs to be turned up or down.  when i got that popping and not a smooth sizzle, I always thought my wire was coming out to fast. (when it sucked back into the gun) i will definitely get the thinner wire.  I know what you mean by less build up and more penetration.  so no extension cord? why is that so again?
Reply:You can use extension cords. Keep a couple of things in mind. Try to use a good solid 12 awg, 20 amp circuit and use a nice decent cord. A 12awg would be nice. As mentioned that 100 foot 18 awg is just too long and too small. All else is relative to the performance you want.
Reply:The reason for not using an extension cord is because there is a bit of resistance in any wire, and that resistance causes the voltage at the end of the cord to be less than what came into the cord.  A thinner wire (bigger AWG number is smaller diameter wire) has more resistance than a thicker wire and will have more voltage loss in it.  Less voltage to the machine means it doesn't get enough power to run fully, especially at higher power settings.  And these smaller machines don't have a whole lot of 'reserve' power available, so they are more sensitive to being short of power that a bigger machine.  And also the thinner the extension cord the more that it heats up during use, especially when used with a machine that draws a lot of amps.Check the owner's manual it it should specify the recommended length and gauge of extension cord that the manufacturer says is OK to run the machine on.IMHO, when using an extension cord with a machine that draws 15-20 amps, you need 12 AWG wire and you need to keep the length of the cord to 50 feet max.And these class of welders need to be on a decent 20amp circuit to run well.  That means the wall wiring needs to be 12 AWG and the breaker needs to be 20 amps on that circuit.  And you should have nothing else running on the circuit at the same time (or else some power is being used by the something else and is not available for the welder to use).
Reply:There is plenty of good advice here.Since the post title was MIG Wire Tension, I have a comment on that.I think there may be a general tendency for over-tightening the feed roll pressure on the wire.  You only need enough feed roll pressure to grip the wire without slipping during welding.  Excess pressure may cause undue wear on the feeder, and it can deform or shave the wire and cause feed problems.To test the feed roll tension, run wire out the end of the gun and make it curl into a coil in the palm of you hand.  You can feel the amount of back pressure you are applying as you adjust the angle of the gun and force the wire to coil tighter or looser.  You can then adjust the feed roll pressure so it does not slip, but is not excessively tight.The other wire feed adjustment is the drag on the spool which prevents the spool from continueing to spin forward when the feeder is shut off.  The overspin results in a bunch of crossed up loose windings on the spool which don't feed properly.  So, adjust the spool for a little drag, not too much or your just over taxing the feed motor.
Reply:Good post pulser, today i had to pickup new miller 251, 0.035 rollers, cause my retarded helpers don't use clean liners, so they use max tension. i like gnarled v-grove rollers/wheels, it helps with cheap wire (30 cents a pound he-he-ha-ha). However if you use too much tension with gnarled rollers you screw your liners...... but if you haven't tried them, try'em~!  and P.S. Miller wire feed systems suck! Pick up an ESAB, and the chest hair with follow......  Thanks, Eh!
Reply:pulser your right ,but try to get wire to roll up in your hand is bad it my work with wire smaller then .035 but Ive seen welders put .035 and .045 right though there hand so use a block of wood but not your handChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:LOL! i think, we all have had red hot wire in us, inches deep. I'm sure one time it hit the bone, but at least it cauterizes. One of the many pourd scars of being a structural welder.....  Thanks, Eh!
Reply:Chopper thanks for the feedback, good idea to use a block of wood.I'm not so concerned with poking my self with the wire but I guess I forgot to mention, you don't want to clamp the "ground clamp" to your big toe when you do this!  If you're grounded and the welder is live, you could be dead.The weld system I use has an "inch" button that feeds wire without weld power.  If your welder doesn't have an "inch" button to feed wire without weld power, maybe you could disconnect the weld power lead from the feeder, or run the wire on a block of wood or other insulator.thanks. I got .025 wire today, so I'm sure I will be getting a lot more penetration than I was before. Also, i'm in the garage and not the carport this time. I will also be plugging straight into wall and not using an extension cord.  My breaker puts 20 amps to that circuit, so I am going down the right path to improve my machine's performance, and hopefully my welding skills, haha
Reply:I might as well put this out there.  I am a high school student and am bringing the shop environment to my garage.  yes, everything is set up very nicely at my school, so my questions are coming because I am seting up everything on my own, and want to make sure I follow proper proceduring and testing on equipment.  We are given metal at my school, so it is kind of like okay, weld on this with these settings.  I have never really done this on my own.  yes, i can figure it out because it is not all that hard, but when problems occur, I kind of feel frustrated.  Thanks for all the feedback!!!@