Bidding my first _BIG_ job on my own...A few questions

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So i'm about to bid on my first BIG job on my own with my new business.Here are the details I know so far.I will be building a security fence on site.  There will be about 28 4"x4" 3/16-1/4" walled steel posts that will need to be set in concrete around the perimeter.  Horizontally are 1"x2" rect. tubing 1/8" wall.  Between the horizontals will be the same 1"x2" rect. tubing vertical.  The spacing is unknown at the time, details will be discussed in the meeting tomorrow morning.  Everything will need to be ground down flush, and sanded for paint.  I am short on leads by about 20' according to the customer's description of the location in relation to where I can park my rig.  I got a quote on 60' of 1/0 leads.  $198.  One size smaller put me at $165.  I can rent 100' for $25 a day.My LN-25 wirefeeder is setup for 1/16"-5/32" wire.  To run a suitable flux-cored wire for this job I will need to change out the rollers and guides $65, liner ($20 is my guess on a 10'er).  Or, I can rent a smaller 120v/220v wirefeeder for $30/day.  Or I can rent leads and stick weld it which will put way too much time into this job that I don't have...  I need to knock this out in a weekend.By myself I will have to use tie wire to hold the horizontals in place while I tack them in place.  Very time consuming.  A buddy of mine who I worked with on a welding job offered his help.  I trust him and his work 100%.  He works for $28-$42/h as a roofing foreman, but the best I can offer him is $19/h.  He was happy with that.Here are my questions.  The job will be about a 20 hour job with me and another worker.  Without it could take more than twice that long.  I already quoted the customer an hourly wage + travel charges (120miles each way) and a rough estimate of 40 hours.  Tomorrow, saturday, sunday and monday.  How would I approach the subject of a higher way with two workers?  I need to make a profit on this job, or at least break even to get my company name out there.  If I don't charge more, I can't do it without losing a few dollars from my pocket.Is it fair to tell the customer I can do it in twice the time with twice the manpower for a higher price?  About 50% higher.  Which will end up saving him money and time.I first told him I could do it in the following four days, but an old plan for my son's birthday party that went dormant just popped back up.  My relatives are now throwing the plans back in the open for a party and family comes first.  Now the job is going to be set back a week until next weekend.I have the money to buy the needed equipment, but I will make NO profit, and will lose money.  The advantage is that I will have the equipment later on, the problem is I don't have the money to shell out.  I can do it, but it will be tight for the next few weeks while I catch up.Any help is much needed right now.  I want to make this job perfect.  The customer is a big business owner and word of a quality job can spread fast, and he lives in a big city (Seattle) so there is a lot of work to be had there.
Reply:I've heard 4" is code for vertical spacing, so kids don't get they head stuck inda fence. I would think renting leads/ tools that you can't afford to buy is a good temporary measure. We always tend to buy the large items on an opportunistic basis, when we can swing a good deal. The smaller items can be had more easily when other items are out of range. Find the easiest way to completion, for now. Be honest with your customers, how could you afford to be caught in a lie with a paying customer? If you need time or money, they are now in the bosses chair, ask for it, an honest policy gathers no boot. Luck mate!City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:My take is you gave your word/quote on the job, both cost and timing.Live up to your word.Did you really mean to say "can do it in twice the time with twice the manpower for a higher price"??  Or did you mean to say you could tell the customer you can do the job in HALF the time by running a crew of two instead of doing it all solo?  And thus charge him a higher hourly rate but for half the time, total job costing about the same or a little less than originally quoted.Starting up is hard, you need to get tooled up and get a feel for costs vs profit vs quotes and get a 'name' going for reference, etc.I think you need to think better about your business plan and so forth.  How will you price out jobs, just an hourly rate, or time plus materials, or some other formula?  Anyway you do it, if you want the business to survive, you need to cover all the costs of doing business (taxes, insurance, machinery, materials, depreciation and maintenance, office, permits, licenses, taxes, vehicles, helpers/workers, sub-contractors, bookkeeping, etc, etc) and make a profit in the big picture.  You really can't expect your first client to foot the entire bill to tool you up, those machine costs need to be spread out over the depreciated life of the equipment and amortized across clients over that time period.Or you could just take a bit of a loss on the first job, learn your lesson about bidding and quoting, and do a better job with the 'money' side on the next job.Rent versus buy?  For how long you think the job is going to take (3-5 days), renting would cost you the same or more and you have no equipment at the end of the rental compared to buying the leads/tools.  But you can't just go crazy buying everything right in the beginning, that just puts you or the business in a financial hole.If you underbid a job, you eat the costs.  If you keep underbidding jobs, your business will fail financially.Spacing on the pickets?  Isn't that already in the building permit/plans or per the applicable building codes for the area?  Most general fencing codes call for no spacing bigger than 4" (can't pass a 4" dia sphere is often the wording used), to limit the chance of a child's head gettting trapped.  Some areas or applications may call for tighter spacing or may allow looser spacing.Good luck in your business.Last edited by MoonRise; 08-31-2007 at 01:51 AM.
Reply:Very hard place to be. If you quoted a price all ready then you might haft to stick with it if you still want the job and find away to make it work. In my experience unless the customer wants the job completed as soon as possible, willing to pay for it and has stated this fact, they don't like to change the agreement and want what they were quoted. Most of the time I do the work myself even if it takes a little longer so that i make some money when this happens to me. Its a learning curve when it comes to business. I have seen it to many times and done it myself were you are working on the side making some extra money and having some fun then you get the idea of going on the books and starting your own business. Here is where the big problem lies, you were making money before but now you have a lot more to pay for and the price goes way up just to make the same profit as you were before. Its very common and happens way to often. In my opinion which is only worth what you want it to be, you have two choices. First you can do the job as is and take it as a learning experience in which case I would talk to the customer and make a point of telling them that you gave them a great price and would like them to pass the word along about your work but not the price you charged them or you can go back to the customer and tell them that you can not do it for the initial quoted price and try to work out a deal. It may be better to loose the job then to have your name being passed around as great work for a cheap price which is a hard thing to change.people just don't understand things like this. Good luck or your decision and I hope it all works out for you.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:welderboy,  congrats on striking out on your own.  the only advice i can give you is, be there when you say you are going to be there, and start and finish the job as scheduled, and never change a price after it is quoted.  the customer is always, and i mean always right, even when they are dead wrong.  good word of mouth is your best advertising, and it travels very slowly.  bad word of mouth is around the world in a split second.  good luck. i am 45. i have been self employed 85% of my working life, and love it.
Reply:Not a lot of information about what you're actually building here.  What's the spacing between posts or the overall length of the fence?  Are you setting the posts or are they already set?  Security barrier so it's probably not going to need to meet code for upright  spacing as per handrails applications.  Would be nice to know how many uprights are involved.You don't need to tie wire anything in place if you try to work it alone, all you need is a handful of short clips and clamps.If you've got to set the posts they have to be set to line as well as being oriented so the facing sides are parallel.  Very difficult to do unless you set them as you go, connecting with the horizontals at every post.  I can see a day spent just setting posts and that's without having to tie them in as you go.Upright spacing is going to make a huge difference in how hard it is to grind between them.  If they do have to be spaced per handrail code you can't get in there with an angle grinder.  How would you plan to grind the welds if you can't?It sounds like this stretches out fairly long which is why you don't have lead enough.  You only need to reach the far end with one lead, if you tack or weld as you go you can stay grounded off your original connection.There's going to be a minimum of four hours spent in travel each day.  Is that chargeable time or not?  I see this as close to 100 hr job, based on what little information you gave.  If you've quoted an hourly rate that rate doesn't have to change if you add a second worker.  40 hours of billable time is the same whether you do it in 40 alone or 20 with 2 people involved.That birthday party might have to be history.  If you're going to work for yourself you have to accept that you work when the work is there.  Might be a little hard to swallow but that's how it is.And you're going to work long days when you can't hardly walk at times?  There's something wrong with this picture!Not trying to be insulting but it sounds like, while you may be a great welder, you know right next to nothing about putting things together from scratch.  That will change quick enough, this is where the education starts.
Reply:If the referrals will mean that much to you, then eat your SH*Tburger with cheese, and just do the job, and take the loss. Since you already quoted a price, it is up to you, at your discretion, to get the job done any way you deem necessary. If you say it can be done in 1hr, and 1hr=$50, then, if you get done in 20 minutes, good on you. If it takes you 3 hrs, you blew it, your loss. If the job is not what he said, discuss it, and insist on changing the pay BEFORE you start tearing into the job. If it is too far out of the original scope of work, and he won't budge, you may have to walk away from the job. If I were doing it, I would make a set of blocks/ spacers for the balusters(which Tanglediver is correct on, 4"on Center) and I would use a helper. If you could do the job faster, and better with help, then do it. Good luck.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:First law of quoting a job is never quote a price until you know ALL THE DETAILS, and spacing on a rail is a MAJOR detail.  If you quoted it, then live up to it.  Even at a loss.  You explain to the guy that YOU screwed up on the quote and are living up to it, but don't expect future work to be this cheap.  Do the work to show your abilities, and hope he continues to use you.  I will mention when figuring up a job its not a good idea to figure in the cost of equipment that you don't have in your price.  That should come out of your profit.  You can't milk a guy to set you up equipment wise on one job.  If you own the business it's up to you to buy the equipment you need to run it.  Not the customer.  That's How I have seen it.  You never quote a price and then go up because you add help to the job.  A job cost what it cost even if it can be done in less time with more people.  When adding a helper, each person works less so they get paid less.  Sounds like you are wanting to make the same as you quoted for less work, and then still have the guy pay for your helper.  It doesn't work like that.   As far as birthday parties etc.  I feel for ya, but when you are self employed you will work ALOT more hours than you will for a regular job, and you will have to decide is your business and working for yourself worth the extra time you will have to give up to keep it a float.  It's all part of it.   Working for yourself is not as easy as most think.  Welcome to the world of self employment.  I will throw this out there also.  Are your papers in order?  Do you have your business license, insurance etc...  Alot of places that can get you in trouble and result in fines if that is not inorder before you start working.  Just some friendly advice but I think you are jumping in pretty quickly and need to sit back and re-evaluate your business plan and where you want this to go or you might be getting in for more of a hassle than you can imagine....I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I never gave the guy an actual estimate.  But he was eager to ask about the duration of the job and I told him without the details, and with what I have heard it should be in the range of X hours, but we need to go over details before that is final.And I am licensed and insured.
Reply:For a fence, I usually ballpark at $200 lineal foot.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Welder_Boy,You've gotten some good advice regarding costing the job.Remember, in setting the posts, you can't just set the posts, pour concrete, and start welding.  The concrete needs time to set up (generally a minimum of 72 hrs).  You may want to set the posts one weekend, prefab the verticals over the next week, and then complete the job the following weekend.Basic thought to remember.  Elephants work for peanuts, but they don't weld very well. Good luck on the job.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Thanks everyone!
Reply:Wouldn't it be easier to set the posts, take good measurements and build the railing in shop then weld them in between the post?  That is if you have a shop or a good flat floor.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Stick by your word no matter what if you lose money you can make it up later but if they can't trust you they might not give you a second chanceCWF07Stick Welder
Reply:Don't confuse fencing with guard rails.  Knowing your codes will save you money, especially if you can go with larger than 4" spacing.  Baluster add up quickly.  I use a 3-15/16 spacer.  It will save you many pickets.  4" inch centers are too close and again balusters add up.Price pre-cut material.  Set up a table of some sort to build the panels.  It is way faster than trying to plumb the balusters in the frame and vertical.$19/hr  is way too much for the skills you will utilize of your friend.  Though you might just want to help him out.  He won't do much welding.  There will be holes to dig and cleanup and painting to do.  Price per hole or part.  He won't even need to be out there until panel are built.20 feet leads will work if you build of a table and then install.  If you have 20 for each lead than you can travel 40 feet, not oo bad.  Cleaning and painting is probably the most over looked aspect of fabrication.  Don't under estimate them.  Not sure what the design of your fencing is however, there might be a volume of welding the must not be overlooked. Finally, you don't want a reputation for working cheaply.  Quality work is expected regardless of price, thus bid competitively.  Too, if family comes first, then consider that each job take you away from family. Thus your time away needs to be prosperous not spent doing favors or taking money away.You can dry set post in concrete to, then adjust and brace as needed.  As Fuzz suggest take good measurment, however I would weld a post to each panel then install.I started this post an hour ago...Last edited by tapwelder; 08-31-2007 at 12:10 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelder$19/hr  is way too much for the skills you will utilize of your friend.  Though you might just want to help him out.  He won't do much welding.  There will be holes to dig and cleanup and painting to do.  Price per hole or part.  He won't even need to be out there until panel are built.
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyI've seen him carrying two large gas cylinders, one on each shoulder up and down 40' of scaffold stairs.
Reply:olddad, I already pointed out the foolishness of him carrying those cylinders like that.  I wouldn't allow that if he were working for me.I need to make money, regardless of my injuries.  Last week I had two doctor appointments and missed a total of 10 hours of work.  That is a lot of money.  Once again, family comes first.  If that means working more to keep my family under a roof with dinner on the table then I will do it.Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your concern and I know you guys have decades more experience than me and I am soaking all that info in.
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyI need to make money, regardless of my injuries.  Last week I had two doctor appointments and missed a total of 10 hours of work.  That is a lot of money.  Once again, family comes first.  If that means working more to keep my family under a roof with dinner on the table then I will do it.
Reply:I really don't want this thread straying into my injury if you guys don't mind.
Reply:Please excuse my injection of REALITY. It's all rosey out there, have at it kid.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:My line of work is not strictly welding. Maybe it's a little different for you guys I have never been a full time weldor. I personally do not like to do jobs on an hourly basis, you can only make your hourly rate. In other words you can stay in busisness another day but you will never get very far ahead. ... IMHOThe problem I see is most people seem to base their hourly rate on how much they need to survive not come out ahead. I base the price for all jobs on, what the job is worth, what I need to make, what do I need to do the job, how much would they have to pay someone else to do it, Etc. It needs to be worthwhile and profitable or I pass on the job. That having been said .... I have done jobs over the years for far less than I should have. Because I was broke, because I was desperate, and because I promised the customer a particular price. I'm sure everyone working for themselves has at one time or another. That having been said I never see a need to tell a customer how many hours it will take to do a job. I rarely if every discuss price of materials with a customer either... Not to say I haven't told one or two "Do you know how expensive Stainless is? or materials will be about two to three thousand" or whatever to help justify a price in their mind.But they don't need to know how much welding rod costs or gas for your rig, etc. You can not let the customer dictate your pricing schedule.Don't mean to sound hard, disrespectful, cruel, mean or anything else just stating fact ...  My Dad used to say "Sometimes you have to grab the Bull by the horns".If you need the work suck it up and do the job.If you have no work $10 dollars an hour is damn good money.Allen
Reply:Originally Posted by olddadPlease excuse my injection of REALITY. It's all rosey out there, have at it kid.
Reply:Originally Posted by olddadPlease excuse my injection of REALITY. It's all rosey out there, have at it kid.
Reply:Washman...not "ruffled"...just gently fluffed...lol. I know about those young bucks because I was one of them. Death awaits us all...with it comes the release from the pain, know what I mean ?? No-one looks forward to it but it does have a positive note or two...lolI don't know why I let it bother me because it's pretty common among the young (was I like that ?). They ask for advise or guidance, however you choose to call it, and then they want to cherry pick the info without including all the facts. My kids did it too but they're old enough now to realise you have to consider everything (just like the old man told them) or you only come to incorrect conclusions. I'm dealing with medical issues now, I don't want to hear some of the things the Doc has to say but what choice do I have. I can make BS decisions on partial info or listen and make educated decisions. Thanks for the interjection though, back to reality...lolAnything worth doing is worth doing RIGHTWashman brought up another area of concern. Materials. Washman's method must work for him so he's not wrong. But if you're capital challenged the last thing you need is customer that is slow to pay or argues the price becuase he thinks you're marking up the materials. Nothing wrong with a little mark up if you've got time and expenses gettin materials by the way. I'm not in business for myself but I've been known to do a few side projects. I've always have the customer have the materials delivered, had him go get them or had them charge to him. At this point in the game you don't want to end up toting the note for a bill of materials.
Reply:On my materials, if it requires me ordering or purchasing material that I do not have in stock then when the material is delivered the customer pays for the materials.  I have seen times (years ago)  that I would have a few grand in materials and be looking at 30 days before I was going to get a check for a job, and couldn't pay my own bills.  You need to have everything agreed on before you start including payment arrangements.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Hammack, that makes a lot of sense.  In this case, the customer has all the steel on site.  It was delivered today.
Reply:WB, all i can say is every job is different. some i bid the whole job and some i bid by the hour. even the hourly jobs i give the customer an estimate on the hours and charge in the end. if i bring on a second hand i charge a second hour for his work.as far as the injury goes. if your not out on workers comp then by all means  forge ahead. BUT if you are on workers comp then stay at home, if you are caught working on your own, they can take back any compensation (pay) you have recieved."Retreat hell, were just fighting in the other direction"Miller Trailblazer 302, Extreme 12 VS, Dimension 400, Spectrum 375, HF 251D-1, Milermatic 251 w/ spoolgun  Hypertherm 1000Lincoln sp 1702000 F-450 to haul it
Reply:fabricating the entire thing on site sounds like a really bad idea.  there are a lot of variables that can pop up, weather being the most potentially detrimental and unexpected.  don't underestimate the time involved with finishing.  painting and prep work can easily take as long or longer than than fabrication.  an option you should seriously consider is hot dip galvinizing, bring this up with the client first, in the long run it will save them money.  if you do galvanize you will need to fabricate the panels, dip them, paint them, then install which will involve welding  then priming at the welds and painting again. the absolute last thing you want to find yourself doing is sitting out there with a paint can and a paint brush, those little pickets are deceptively time consuming.  at least be in a position to spray them. its never cheap to do right, but you want a reputation as someone who does quality work, not cheap work, do not be afraid to walk away from a job where the clients won't pay your numbers.  a book that was highly recommended to me at a nomma convention and i've found indispensable was "markup and profit, a contractors guide"  michael stone. as far as buying welding lead, you can't go wrong with having more, copper prices aren't going down anytime soon, it'll be cheaper to buy that now rather than later, but i wouldn't bill that to the client.your friend may very well be overqualified for what you need, although this early it really couldn't hurt to have an extra head to scratch. when trying to figure things out.fwiw, for railings you don't need a full table either 2"sq on jackstands or sawhorses can be extremely versatile.  i wouldn't use tie wire personally, i would run a piece of angle iron under where the pickets go, level it, clamp it, then use a spacer and pop each picket in place, tack it, next one, etc, then go back and weld them up solid. always bid the job at at least half again how long you think it will take, none of us are as good as we think we are.
Reply:RustyRipple, I agree always over bid enough that you are covered in case of unexpected circumstances.  WelderBoy, how re things going with the bid?  Just wanted to check in and see how things were coming out for you.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Job's done.  I ended up overbidding the job.  Went over the drawings, told him 60 hours.  Took 46hrs @ $75/h + gas  (92 man hours), customer paid extra for the extra man, and I charged him 46 hrs.  Rental costs were around $300.  Consumables about $175.  Employee costs $874.  $1270 for my insurance for the month.  And I went fishing afterwards...Until next time!
Reply:Glad it all worked out WB.  How's the back injury though?  Hope you didn't aggravate it.  I just got back from my chiropractor for a weekly adjustment.Hobart 140 Handler w/ gasHyperTherm Powermax 380 Plasmaoxy/acetylene
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick MoranGlad it all worked out WB.  How's the back injury though?  Hope you didn't aggravate it.  I just got back from my chiropractor for a weekly adjustment.
Reply:Congrats on the start of your own business.
Reply:Glad it worked out for you!  Now, Get some pics posted of it so we can see too....I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyJob's done.  I ended up overbidding the job.  Went over the drawings, told him 60 hours.  Took 46hrs @ $75/h + gas  (92 man hours), customer paid extra for the extra man, and I charged him 46 hrs.  Rental costs were around $300.  Consumables about $175.  Employee costs $874.  $1270 for my insurance for the month.  And I went fishing afterwards...Until next time!
Reply:60 actual hours, 120 man hours.  Customer agreeed to it.  I broke down all aspects of the job and calculated the time for everything.  But by working hard and with no problems, the job was done faster.
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyI charged him 46 hrs.
Reply:My take on this topic is this, if you bid yourself low, especially when just starting out you have to live up to your end of the bargain. Being that you are just starting out you may be able to go to a customer with the truth, that you messed up on the bid, and get some relief. If they don't offer it, your're out of luck. Live and learn and don't make the same mistake twice. I do a fair amount of work in my garage on cars. I recall one project that I way way underbid myself. I hadn't worked on that particullar engine/body combination and it took way way longer than I planned. I told the customer that I screwed up and needed about 25% more if I'm to avoid taking a loss. They agreed and gave it up without any argument. They knew up front I was screwing myself with that bid.  I found out later they had shopped around extensivly. If the customer had said no, you bid it you do it, I would have had a choice to make. I could have made them come get the car and risked tarnishing my name or do it for the loss and learn a valuable lesson.Wayne