My Dump Truck..

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'99 F-350 Turbo Diesel..The framework to the dump body has broken near where the dump body rests in the down position..The factory framework sucks and I have 3"x4" 3/16" wall tubing that I'm gonna cut into 10" lengths and position them where I want them and add a piece of 3/16" X 3" "fence" to connect the tubing..Should be a pretty easy job by my standards..The question is..Do I HAVE TO disconnect both batteries to do this??I will post from a to z when I get around to doing this so stay tuned......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:i never have and never had a problem just keep the ground cloese to wereyour weldingChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:I always use the better to be safe than sorry method.
Reply:I'm no expert, but I always disconnect the battery(s) when working on vehicles.  I had a shop teacher in highschool that would also go as far as disconnecting the vehicles computer when doing any welding.  I have never seen the need for this but I always disconnect the battery, as lars66 said "I always use the better to be safe than sorry method" because hey, there is always that slight possibility.
Reply:I wouldn't.   I believe the battery acts as a capacitor.  If there are any stray electrons, they will be sucked up by the battery.  Key OFF, Good ground near your work.OK, OK,  Edit.  If you are going to use the tig with HF, I couldn't tell ya.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Zap, this was posted over on another site and this is straight from Ford, Davehttps://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-html/Q123.pdfI am what I am, Deal with it!If necessity is the Mother of Invention, I must be the Father of Desperation!
Reply:Thats good info for sure but it states from 2005 on..Mine is a '99...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Things CAN go wrong but it does not happen often, but that said I would disconnect.  No battery = no circuit = no problems!Me!
Reply:Originally Posted by dabar39Zap, this was posted over on another site and this is straight from Ford, Davehttps://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-html/Q123.pdf
Reply:Nope. Old wives' tale. If you ground next to your work, you're fine. Also, ground TO THE PIECE you're welding. Don't ground to the bumper then weld the frame 6" from the bumper- ground to the frame since that's what you're working on.Manufacturers tell you to disconnect because there is no shortage of assholes that will ground to the front bumper and weld the rear one. If you ground next to the work area, don't worry. Also, you need a CLEAN ground- not a rusted frame.We weld brackets on vehicles all the time and follow these rules with no problems.
Reply:your call... I don't disconnect them.  Done it with the vehicle running, vehicle off with stereo on ( got to have tunes to get you in the welding mood you know  )... I've caused more damage to glow plug controllers by washing the darn engine than welding on them
Reply:I,ve watched people weld on vehicles with tha battery hooked up and I've seen the boxes that you hook up across the battery to protect electeronics while welding but in the end I know that if I don't, at least, disconnect the batteries and anything happens it would be my fault because I know I should.
Reply:OK guys...I will level with ya...No disconnect needed on this particular chassis..Granted I did learn from the post that 2005 and beyond need attention before welding..But as stated earlier its a wives tale...Just putting the test to you'z guy'zeeeee But another lesson learned..2005 and beyond be on the look out......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Disconnecting the batteries does NOTHING except for keeping you battery form going dead while working on the car!IF you were to create a gound loop by improper grounding, guess what? You just smoked the PCM or some other module because the ground loop still will travel through the connected module and current flows through it.If you are paranoid about damaging something, disconnect the modules. Allison, Detroit and Cummins all recommend unplugging their control modules, but again...if you ground it properly, you won't damage anything. Electron flow cannot damage what it does not flow through. If you properly ground your work area close, current flow is from the ground point to the arc and nowhere else. Do things right and you  don't need to worry. I've seen many truck fab shops that ground their machine to the bumper and weld all over the truck. These clowns are asking for trouble.Some recommend making sure the vehicle does not touch earth ground or concrete, as current can flow from the work area through the chassis and to earth causing a "back door" ground loop especially if the welder's secondary is connected to neutral/ground at any point. For anyone that does not believe that concrete will conduct try this:Get a DVOM meter and put it on the 200VAC scale.Put one lead to hot on a 120 or 240 outlet.Place a small amouint of water on the concrete shop floor and place the other test lead in the water. You'll usually  get at least 80V+ on the meter. (the water just acts as a conductor medium from the test lead to concrete). There you have it....concrete is a conductor.jimwww.jmarcoz.com
Reply:^^^^^^^^^Well I guess that explanes that..  ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by turboblownDisconnecting the batteries does NOTHING except for keeping you battery form going dead while working on the car!
Reply:The concrete/conductor topic reminds me of something I heard as a kid to not to place a wet cell batt on a concrete floor as it would make it go dead. As long it was sitting on a piece of wood it was OK, so the story went.                                            MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:Zap, I have the same truck as you, I weld on the tailgate, trailer, vise in the hitch, and so on. I have yet to fry my PCM, or blow up a battery. You should be good to go, if you want to use the big Lincoln insted of yout 110 MIG just give a call.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Originally Posted by TozziWeldingZap, I have the same truck as you, I weld on the tailgate, trailer, vise in the hitch, and so on. I have yet to fry my PCM, or blow up a battery. You should be good to go, if you want to use the big Lincoln insted of yout 110 MIG just give a call.
Reply:The "wet cell on a concrete floor" thing is also a wives' tale. Big time.There is no magical electron-through-plastic sucking force in concrete.If this were true, a metal battery tray would drain a battery. We keep our batteries in the shop on a concrete floor. The tale got started in the early days of electric starting motors where the batteries couldn't stay charged for long. People would set a battery on the floor and when they installed it in a car weeks later, it was dead. Must have been the concrete floor? Nope. It was just the fact that it sat for weeks."I disagree with this, but agree with everything else you have mentioned. Having a battery attached completes a current path THROUGH electronic systems that are always on. Removing it removes this path thus eliminating the possibility of a problem. "Partially true: If you disconnect the battery and still think you're safe, you are no more safe than with it on. The computers still have 60-80 wires that ARE connected to points on the vehicle. These points are where the ground loops occur that do damage. By disconnecting the battery, you are just taking two of the 60-80 points out of the equasion. You still have many points of damage left. Disconnect the modules rather than the battery if you do anything.Another factor to consider is the electromagnetic fields that are generated when welding or plasma cutting. These fields can induce in wiring and feed current "anywhere." EMF can also damage components in specialty vehicles such as laptop hard drives, police video recording equipment and even Hall Effect sensors that are commonly used as crank & cam triggers in most modern vehicles.The bottom line is is you feel unconfortable welding with modules connected, disconnect them. Some manufacturers recommend disconnecting the battery first before disconnecting any of their modules for service. It will at least rest your mind and let you concentrate on welding without worrying about a $1800 DDEC module.If you do disconnect them, consider these:Diesel engine controller (usually on block of REAL Diesels)Tranny controllerABS SRS (airbag)stereo systeminjector driver on Powerstrokes (if it made it into your shop w/o a tow truck)body computers (GM/Mopar)lighting control modules (Ford)....good luck getting to some of them.On firetrucks and other specialty units, many manufacturers are using the most evil device called "multiplexing" to control their entire electrical systems. These systems have multiple computers and modules, touch screens and other technical masturbation all over the truck and are all tied together via a databus. This is a ground loop failure waiting to happen. Make sure you ground inches from your work on these trucks!
Reply:well put turboblown's...Zap is the dump truck you are speaking of is the red one you were driving last class?  Just wondering why you have a heavy duty dump truck as a daily driver?  Don't get me wrong it is nice looking truck!  I would not mind having one like that. Me!
Reply:Disconnect it! I had a battery blow up on me back in 94 in the car.
Reply:The battery won't blow up from welding. I promise.
Reply:Originally Posted by Me!well put turboblown's...Zap is the dump truck you are speaking of is the red one you were driving last class?  Just wondering why you have a heavy duty dump truck as a daily driver?  Don't get me wrong it is nice looking truck!  I would not mind having one like that.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterYup same truck..Its just a "toy"..I do firewood in my spare time..Had a '89 F250..460 automatic with a E-Z Dumper insert in the back..8 foot Fisher..Killed it in 3 years..I'm not gonna kill this thing..Plus the 9' Fisher Plow is for fun also.....zap!Originally Posted by turboblownThe battery won't blow up from welding. I promise.
Reply:VERY improper grounding. Shame on you.
Reply:Originally Posted by dabar39Zap, this was posted over on another site and this is straight from Ford, Davehttps://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-html/Q123.pdf
Reply:Originally Posted by turboblownVERY improper grounding. Shame on you.
Reply:It has been brought to my attention that I may have inadvertently copied a sentence from someone else's post. When this thread was written I had remembered a similar post over on another site. I knew who the thread on the other site was started by so I simply did a search for the topic and when search results for the thread title came up I simply pressed the paperclip to show attachments and copied the link from Ford to post here. Apparently the original poster  of the link to Ford has an issue with me not giving "him" credit for the post and that I managed to copy a few words that "he" had written. Had I taken the time to see who made that particular post and the wording used, I may have either given "him" credit or simply reworded the sentence. It is not and was not my intention to try and take credit for my posting of the link to Ford or to inadvertently say the same thing as the original poster. Unfortunately, I can not give credit where credit may be due as I have stated in a number of previous posts that I will not acknowledge or directly respond to this "person" Who has brought this issue to my attention. (see posts above or C@@@@@d's intro or job over sea posts)If this affects any of you in any way my apologies are sent to you, But if you are like me you could really care less that the topic has been brought up to begin with forget that I made this post to appease some self serving, pompous a$$.  DaveI am what I am, Deal with it!If necessity is the Mother of Invention, I must be the Father of Desperation!
Reply:Originally Posted by David RI wouldn't.   I believe the battery acts as a capacitor.  If there are any stray electrons, they will be sucked up by the battery.  Key OFF, Good ground near your work.OK, OK,  Edit.  If you are going to use the tig with HF, I couldn't tell ya.David
Reply:This is a stupid question, but this on is for you riggers, fitters and structural welders:When welding a pipe on a boiler in a building, do you have the electric company come out to disconnect the service from the building while welding?Yeah, I didn't think so either!Trust me. You are wasting your time disconnecting the battery! Worry about the truth and known, provable facts of electricity- not old wives' tales.You disconnect the battery and I assure you that you can still take out a computer. The battery has nothing to do with this. If you are worried about damage, you can ONLY eliminate this by removeing the source of current flow to the computer which is the connector on the computer. If you disconnect the battery and have a loop problem, you will still damage that computer if is connected regardless of whether or not the battery is connected. Unplug the computer is you are paranoid. Better yet, ground your work properly meaning to the exact part you are welding and close to the weld area. This isn't rocket science. Even look at the warning tags installed by OEM truck manufacturers; they say to disconnect the computers and never mention anyhting about the batteries.Many mechanics still belive this old tale just like the one about the battery on a concrete floor. Most mechanics haven't a clue about electronics or electricity and believe that when welding, electricity goes everywhere on the vehicle. This is the same nonsense that when somebody gets struck by lightning and survives claim that every time they touch a computer or any electric device that it stops working or burns out. I guess they are a capacitor?Welding is electrically no different than say, installing a large power inverter in a vehicle. If the inverter is in the rear, there are over a hundred amps flowing through the body. It's also the same as having a battery in the trunk of a race car. When you crank the engine, you will flow several hundred amps through the body or frame and this doesn't take out any computer. Current flow is current flow regardless of it's from welding or an accessory. If done properly, it is just fine. Numb-nuts with 24V boost starters are more dangerous on newer vehicles. I watched a mechanic from a city public works use a gas-powered jack starter set at 27V to jump start a 2006 Impala. The car suffered a failed ABS unit, PCM, stereo, laptop computer power supply, Motorola radio and several light bulbs. The bad thing was that the battery wasn't dead- they were using the wrong key. On the police Impalas, all the keys' teeth are the same from car to car, but the key's internal digital coding is different from car to car. The key they were using would turn, but the engine would not crank since the coding on the internal antitheft chip was incorrect. They did $2000 damage over the wrong key.
Reply:Thread hijack here:  I don't live too far from the Deka battery plant.  They have a small retail store and sell first quality, seconds and rebuilts.  It takes high seniority to get the counterman's job and Jim has held that position for at least 20 years.  I asked him the same question about not setting a storage battery on a concrete floor.  This was his explanation, and he said it had to do with the way batteries were made back then, with rubber cases and vents on top.  Any vibrations while in use tended to splash acid against the vent cap.  Over time it accumulated enough on  the top and side to make a damp enough path to conduct a trickle of current to the concrete floor.  Also, the technology to make rubber cases was crude at best, and some developed cracks in high stress areas, causing a tiny voltage leak.  He said the new sealed plastic cases prevent this from happening. Not to mention the gell cell batteries.I can't say if his explanation was correct or not.  Only that he was in a position to know the answer.WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:If each electrical component in a vehicle had it's own isolated battery return lead back to a negative buss bar where the batteries negative lead was also terminated then disconnecting the battery lead might be of value. As is, as stated by turbo, their battery returns are the various body panels and/or sections. These then are made (hopefully) electrically the same via all the straps from cab to frame, cab to engine block, quarter panel to frame, engine to frame bla bla bla. It's obvious that loose, coated bolts through painted panels cannot be trusted to do the job with todays sensitive equipment. While taking the battery leads loose might make electronics electrically dead it doesn't take them out of the circuit. The vehicle body is the other half of the circuit. Back in the day, when welding on your old jeep, you'd take your warped and burnt work lead, clamp it off to the most convenient location painted rusty or otherwise, do a couple of taps of the rod and force it to arc through after a couple of ticks and weld away on whatever it was you were working on. You just can't do that anymore.  . You have to make sure your work lead is connected to whatever it is you are planning on welding and make sure there is an actual path. Those little burnt spots where you had your work lead clamped are trying to tell you something.  I won't go so far as to say don't take the battery leads off. Certainly easy enough to do. Kills your brain and dumps your most current settings. Those will get rebuilt in the next hundred miles or so.
Reply:Originally Posted by 69 chevyThread hijack here:  I don't live too far from the Deka battery plant.  They have a small retail store and sell first quality, seconds and rebuilts.  It takes high seniority to get the counterman's job and Jim has held that position for at least 20 years.  I asked him the same question about not setting a storage battery on a concrete floor.  This was his explanation, and he said it had to do with the way batteries were made back then, with rubber cases and vents on top.  Any vibrations while in use tended to splash acid against the vent cap.  Over time it accumulated enough on  the top and side to make a damp enough path to conduct a trickle of current to the concrete floor.  Also, the technology to make rubber cases was crude at best, and some developed cracks in high stress areas, causing a tiny voltage leak.  He said the new sealed plastic cases prevent this from happening. Not to mention the gell cell batteries.I can't say if his explanation was correct or not.  Only that he was in a position to know the answer.
Reply:Originally Posted by 69 chevyThread hijack here:  I don't live too far from the Deka battery plant.  They have a small retail store and sell first quality, seconds and rebuilts.  It takes high seniority to get the counterman's job and Jim has held that position for at least 20 years.  I asked him the same question about not setting a storage battery on a concrete floor.  This was his explanation, and he said it had to do with the way batteries were made back then, with rubber cases and vents on top.  Any vibrations while in use tended to splash acid against the vent cap.  Over time it accumulated enough on  the top and side to make a damp enough path to conduct a trickle of current to the concrete floor.  Also, the technology to make rubber cases was crude at best, and some developed cracks in high stress areas, causing a tiny voltage leak.  He said the new sealed plastic cases prevent this from happening. Not to mention the gell cell batteries.I can't say if his explanation was correct or not.  Only that he was in a position to know the answer.