Whats Your Opinion??

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OK....Lets say your blasting away at 250 amps D.C. straight...Mild steel..What gives more penetration at that amperage..Or any amperage equal for that matter.. MIG?..(Fluxcore whatnot)TIG?..(Any size filler)Stick?..(Any rod)????????...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Haven't done much wirefeed, but I would definatelty say stick. Depending on the rod used of course.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:i vote flux core dual shieldChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:Well Zap DC- on TIG gives max penatration. DC- on Stick is less penatration than DC+. So therefore i think it's kinda of hard to compare TIG and Stick. As far as Mig/Flux Core. A solid mig wire takes more of the heat to melt the wire. With flux Core a tubular wire it takes less energy from the arc to melt the filler, due to the less current density needed to melt the wire. So at 250 ams i believe flux core will penatrate much more than mig with equal wire diameter. that is my take on things tell me what you think.
Reply:In my opinion - Reverse Polarity DCEP -(Mig) GMAW.  In DCEN (Streight) the electrons are flowing the wrong direction for maximum Penetration.  John, will help more if needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldgaultIn my opinion - Reverse Polarity DCEP -(Mig) GMAW.  In DCEN (Streight) the electrons are flowing the wrong direction for maximum Penetration.  John, will help more if needed.
Reply:that is my take on things tell me what you think.
Reply:Based on this reference, http://www.sandia.gov/soar/Pdf_docs/...rans_effic.pdf,GMAW (MIG) has the highest energy transfer efficiency out of the three processes, so I would guess that if everything were optimized for each of the processes (polarity, tip to work distance, etc), that MIG would have the largest melted cross sectional area, and probably the deepest weld.
Reply:Sorry, He also mentioned Stick, that is why I mentioned DCEN.  I think you should reserch the mig - fcaw a lot more.  I understand all the vairables of both.  Thanks  John
Reply:Pulser, I also believe Sandria is correct.  John
Reply:I think tig would because you can control how much filler is added and when. With mig or stick once the trigger is pulled or the arc struck the filler is in the puddle instantly and soaking up arc heat.
Reply:lars66, you need to reserch all processes with DCRP and DCEN, that way you will find out the answer for yourself.  John
Reply:I'm not sure but it sounds like another episode of Zapbusters to meMy Photos on Flickr
Reply:Originally Posted by WildcatI'm not sure but it sounds like another episode of Zapbusters to me
Reply:Good question - but I don't have anything remotely intelligent to add...Fire!, Fire! Oh wait, that's my torch...Lincoln PT-225 TIGLincoln 175 MIG
Reply:It is a good question.  First I think Stick, but then I have run self shielding NR-233 wire at 200 amps vertical up  Gas shielded at 300 amps flat.  I can't do that with stick.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:250 DC straight..... self shielded flux core will beat solid wire and stick hands down. No contest there at all. So, it looks like the competition is between self shielded and TIG. I am not sure which would win...maybe TIG????Dual shield won't work unless it is one of the strange ones that runs on DCEN. Most run on DCEP.
Reply:If I knew there was going to be a test this late at night, I would have studied harder. I agree with DDA52.  However, if stick was allowed to switch to DC+, I believe a digging type of 6010 or 6011 rod would achieve the greatest penetration.  The vast majority of stick electrodes are designed for DC+.  Not being able to use it puts stick at a disadvantage.WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:6010 is run on DC+, Also this question was answered up at the top.
Reply:Stretching the subject away from the original question a bit, if you were strictly interested in the depth of penetration, the deepest weld for a given power level would be an electron beam weld.Also, a plasma welding system, run in the keyhole mode, would give a narrower and deeper weld than TIG, MIG, or Stick at a given power level.
Reply:I tend to agree with Lars66 because of the control.  There is no question because the welder can actually see the penetration as he/she adds filler.
Reply:Originally Posted by riley mcmillanI tend to agree with Lars66 because of the control.  There is no question because the welder can actually see the penetration as he/she adds filler.
Reply:would it be possible to drop this for the time   John
Reply:depends in the position, i am not a good a stick welder, with that much heat, if i was stick welding in a vertical position most of it would be on the  floor, i'm not sure, but i think its difficult to x-ray a weld that has most of the weldment in a puddle on the floor four feet away from the workpiece.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldgaultwould it be possible to drop this for the time   Johnpulser, I and others have answered this above.  No I know all the vairables, but some dont read or understand. I could go over all the vairables in every process for days, if I could type better and faster.  [email protected] or 281-935-7247 if you really want to know more. John
Reply:Lke I said I haven't done much wirefeed, but I have read HUNDREDS of time on this board, that FCAW gets alot more penetration than GMAW. Those were remarks based not on theory, but the experience of guys who weld with wire every day.Last edited by Joe H; 10-05-2007 at 02:19 PM.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:FCAW gets more Deposition, not penetration  JohnSMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFCand Shielding Gases.  There all here. :
Reply:you people will argue about the stupidest sh!t known to man. it's a flawed question, you CANNOT determine the penetration with a single variable (process), the GTAW will penetrate deepest over time (no cooling due to added metal/energy wasted melting electrode). use He shield and fuhggettaboutit.250A stick? what size rod? a 1/16" or a 3/8" dia. how about a 3/4" manipulated rod?same with the GMAW/FCAW what size wire? 0.025" or 1/16" not that it matters much, to melt the tiny amount of stickout.power+time-wasted energy=penetration.Last edited by ChamferTrode; 10-05-2007 at 03:40 PM.
Reply:Chamfer, why don't you post your resume, so we will know how to respect your views.  JohnSMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFCand Shielding Gases.  There all here. :
Reply:Come on guys...tone it down a bit.This is a good question that is designed to get people thinking, not fighting.If you feel that the question has been sufficiently answered or you feel that you have provided as much information as you can, then I suggest you stop responding to the thread rather than asking other people to stop a professional discussion.On with the topic.- PaulLast edited by ZTFab; 10-05-2007 at 03:59 PM.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:This is a good question that is designed to get people thinking, not fighting.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldgaultChamfer, why don't you post your resume, so we will know how to respect your views.  John
Reply:mig with co2 (mag) nice deep penetration deeper than argon/co2 mix but not a nice looking finnish. sort of like a deep penetrating rod.the day you stop learning in this tradeis the day your in your grave
Reply:Chamferedhas some good points ,if you disregard the first part of the post.the question is a good one ,because it got us thinking other welding processthat we may not use every day or at allChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:Let me apologize for not cradling everyone to my breast and validating your existance.truth is, it is a flawed question, need more reason, food for thought, all these processes use different voltages, i can crank up my MIG to 11 on the voltage meter, look up the wire speed that corresponds to 250A and blow the back out of a piece of steel that barely joins with the voltage at 1.heat/penetration whatever you feel like calling it is a mixture of shield (yes, even SMAW), voltage, amperage, time.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterOK....Lets say your blasting away at 250 amps D.C. straight...Mild steel..What gives more penetration at that amperage..Or any amperage equal for that matter.. MIG?..(Fluxcore whatnot)TIG?..(Any size filler)Stick?..(Any rod)????????...zap!
Reply:Ok now lets throw a wrench in the gear box..250 amps..NOT A.C.Anything else is fair game..Carry on.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Solid wire should not be in the picture guys.....he stated DCEN or straight polarity. Solid wire is run DCEP. Same with stick. DCEN gives minimal penetration with stick while DCEP or reverse polarity gives max penn. The only two processes that will give max penetration at DCEN would be TIG and FCAW. FCAW will give tons more penetration than solid of the same diameter due to the current density of the smaller tubular section, regardless of what was said.  Try running .045 71T-11 wire at 250a DCEN vs. .035 solid wire at 250a and DCEP.......zero contest as to which will go deeper. The T-11 will almost blow halfway or more through the plate while the .035 will stay on the top 1/4 of the thickness.I just don't have a TIG torch big enough to test it or I would. I think this is a great little excercise Zap.
Reply:I have welded 3/16" plate to 3/8" plate flat fillet weld with the tig at 220 amps.  I was toolin right along.  Never burned through.  self shielded would have sliced it.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I've had tried to suggest that we compare the processes on equal grounds.Assume you can do whatever tricks you want to increase penetration, such as sharpening the tungsten, running a tight arc length, using helium gas, what ever.But for an equal comparision, you have to keep the travel speed constant, and the arc power (watts) constant.The power is simply amps x volts, so for example take a TIG weld at 250 amps and 12 volts = 3000 watts.An "equal" MIG weld might be 150 amps at 20 volts = 3000 watts.Now what do you think will melt the largest pool?The process with the highest energy transfer efficency.By the way, helium can substantially increase arc efficency because it conducts heat many times better than argon.Also, a short arc length keeps the heat concentrated, and as arc length increases, the arc rapidly becomes broad and loses much heat to the surroundings
Reply:SOOO, Mig at 250 amps 27 volts.  I guess that would be spray unless you were using Co2.  That is something like 6750 watts / 12 tig volts = 562.5 TIG amps The original question said 250 amps DC what ever process.  Nuttin about volts.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:WOW!Continue.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Just remember zap....You're the one who busted out the can opener.  - Paulhttp://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:with my limited experience, I'd say stick.  I base that on the fact you can drill holes with 6011 in pretty thick metal...  but then again, I could be wrong.Just for sake of argument... how hard would it be to rig up something and test the theory?
Reply:Does standing on my roof in a thunderstorm holding onto a 1/2 thick copper rod waiting for a bolt of lightning count????  I think I might just get the most penetration with that weld.Michael   Millermatic 25115" Rockwell Drill Press10" Logan Lathe5hp - 2-stage 80 Gallon CompressorHome Made Sand / Soda Blaster
Reply:Originally Posted by 383bigblockDoes standing on my roof in a thunderstorm holding onto a 1/2 thick copper rod waiting for a bolt of lightning count????  I think I might just get the most penetration with that weld.Michael
Reply:Zap, I think that mig might do the deepest penetration, or maybe more accurately, build a bigger puddle/ bead. You could get better burn with mixed gasses, you can get some high voltage to really pump up the amps.(250A @ 15volts is nice, 250A @ 25volts will make metal wilt under the nuclear fusion!) And I am not sure, but I think fluxcore could get even hotter. I am not much of a stick welder, but I can form a big, hot arse puddle with a mig gun, and I have really good control with it. But alas, I can only get 175 amps from my mig welder. But even that is pretty damn hot after a few inches of bead.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:LolElvis
Reply:I vote TIG simply because I know that if I hold a puddle long enough I can burn clear thru up to a certain thickness (full penetration), and wirefeed/stick leave you at the mercy of adding filler whether you want to or not. Once you deposit filler, you can no longer penetrate in that area and must move on. How will we know who's right?ELVIS