Detailed, Job Specific Welding Instruction

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NOTE: This thread has been edited at the request of its originator, ElvisW. The purpose behind the editing was to eliminate approximately 40 posts that did not further the technical knowledge provided here, but interrupted that knowledge with asides and digressions.This thread has been locked, and continued at: http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=15394 If you have comments or additions to this thread, please place them there.This post is directed at those who visit this forum who have, or are interested in a career in welding. It is possible for me to describe in detail welding procedures/techniques which would be invaluable to the welder wannabe. I would also include pics, and short videos where necessary. I am posting this to see how much interest something like this would generate. If there is enough interest, I will begin compiling my content for lesson number one. Lesson 1, though advanced, would be a full understanding of the techniques and procedures required to produce quality root passes on carbon steel piping or pressure vessel that will pass x-ray q/c all week long. Be advised, while this information is valuable to the beginner, it is aimed at the advanced "career" welder who has access to the equipment needed and desires to upgrade his/her welding portfolio. Very soon I will post pics of the project I am currently working on. In this way I can demonstrate that I have the skills required. I will do this because our/my occupation is a dying breed and because I would take pride in knowing that I have helped someone become a better welder. Please post responses.
Reply:if anybody wants to teach, i want to learn. count me in.with full intent and better sense to recognize what is false and part with it.
Reply:Always open to new ideas.
Reply:I like your enthusiasm, and I would be interested in reading what you have to offer, but not sure exactly how much a person beginning to weld can learn from reading a post.    With that said I think your info would be more directed to the guys who are already proficient to a certain point welding, and just don't have the pressure vessel experience.  I personally would like to hear what you have to say as I am in the process of preparing to certify for pipe mainly just to open up some more job opportunities for my welding business. Here is the low down,  if you post it someone here will learn something from it.  The older I get it seems to be that I learn more and more everyday.  I personally feel if I helped one person it was worth it.  Just my $.02   JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:OKTo start with, I have no idea how many people access these posts. But as Hammack has said, if one person gains, then I have accomplished something.I also do not know how long these posts remain available since this is my first time posting to a forum of any kind. I don't know the rules of posting except don't cuss, create disturbances, and so on. Should I break a rule, I would hope someone would guide me in proper forum etiquette. I will say again that what I will post is directed at the working welder who has access to the equipment required and wants to upgrade his/her skills to include pressure vessel and piping to ASME specs. I am fully aware that it is hard to grasp the written word, which is why I will try and keep the tech jargon to a minimum, include pics and videos (when I find out where I can post them for easy access), and be as clear as possible when describing things. I must also include a disclaimer which follows. I DO NOT claim to be a certified welding instructor. My techniques are learned from years on the job and may or may not be the correct procedures when compared to those of a certified welding instructor. It's been years since I've been in welding school and they certainly didn't teach me very much of what I now know. The point is I pass x-ray QC more than 95% of the time (100% is boasting). Get what you can out of it and if you find it uninformative, there are other threads to follow. I personally look forward to this as I've always considered myself an able teacher in the workplace but this is a project requiring much thought and preparation to be of any use. I will post pics of my current project (at work) so you can get some idea where my skill level is.In conclusion (this post), I have decided to limit the scope of this "lesson" to carbon steel schedule 80 piping of a diameter at least 2 inches. That gives us @ 1/4 inch wall thickness to work with making things a bit easier. More to come.....ELVIS
Reply:This is the vessel I am working on. I am doing a repair on one circumference weld since it failed x-ray and had to be completely ground out and reprepped (I didn't do it). Metal thickness is @ 3/4 inches and requires multiple passes.
Reply:This end of the vessel was welded by Darren, my fitter who is also a certified welder but in my opinion could use afew lessons himself. This weld did however pass x-ray.This is a closeup of a portion of Darrens weld. Note the undercut and erratic weave. This is a cover pass and is @ 1 1/4 wide. Again, this weld passed x-ray (the number stamped is for x-ray orientation).
Reply:This is the midway point of the repair. The root was first (TIG), then a fast hot pass of flux core so as not to linger too long and get too much "pushthrough", followed by this pass which is a slight weave. The grinding at both edges of the weld is to remove any flux or undercut that may have a mind to stay there and cause a failure. At this point I am 3 passes from completion.
Reply:Before I found this site I had no idea how addictive it can be to look at welding pictures.... Keep them coming everyone! -Ryan
Reply:I tried using macro settings on my camera but still need to adjust my distance to get clearer photos. This is the finished weld which has been wire wheeled. It still could use a quick filing along the edges to break up stubborn flux and give the weld a perfectly uniform look. It will be sandblasted in any event and ruin all my cosmetics! I hate when they do that. My code stamp is "triangle" as you can see. Again, this weld is @ 1 1/4 inches wide and required a substantial weave not to mention very high amperage settings. The temp today was high 80's. At least 100 in my work area with the bay door OPEN. Borderline unbearable welding today. I'll let you know if it passes.
Reply:It was my intention to include photos of both sides of my root on this vessel but that was done yesterday and lack of bossless shop didn't permit me to do that this time around. I will though next time they go shopping, and it's carbon steel piping or vessel.
Reply:As soon as I figure out an effective way to "film" the actual processes I will begin posting short videos accompanied by clear descriptions. The biggest problem is grabbing one of the shop newbies while the bosses are away and figuring out what works best. I won't post any videos that are not crisp and informative (visually). My camera is a 4.1 megapixel and can do 12 minutes of video at it's best settings. This is starting to get fun. Something new to me and if it actually helps someone....wow...great.
Reply:Darn me...don't think me a pest. For those who care, all covers were dual shield 7100 flux core .045 with 75/25 gas mix, in a positioner (obviously). Here's the machines...
Reply:Ugh, one last thing before someone starts critiquing. Many would have chosen to use multiple passes for the cover. I chose to weave because first, it was within my discretion and I prefer to weave up to a certain width, and second, it was hot as hell and less times around that thing on a day like today is good. Both methods though, weave and stringer are acceptable cover procedures. Enough from me for today. I hope I'm not annoying anyone.ELVIS
Reply:Very nice , I like this idea.It should help some people on this forum, including me since i am kinda a noob to welding.You should tell us , what wire size/amps and feed rate that you where welding at when you show us the pictures. Helps out on knowing what to use when welding , also don't forget to say what metal your working on. Can't wait till i see some video footage , and make sure to give us some pointers.  P.S Don't take over Zaps job on the forum , he might get a little mad.
Reply:Since someone asked....I can't give precise amperage settings or wire feed rate because I can't see the indicators while I'm welding, and my wire feeder goes from like 1 to 10 lol.I would estimate my amperage in the 225-250 range though. I will have a coworker read the indicator for these settings tomorrow at work and update more precisely. As for wire feed, I did in fact press my trigger today and try to estimate it's rate of feed. It would be approx. 1 inch to 1 1/2 ips (or just under 4 on the dial of that feeder). I tend to weld slow so I can stay in control at all times. I have a philosophy about this. Have you seen the "dog whisperer"? He says..."don't reason with it....DOMINATE it. Show it who's in control (the dog). This applies to welding in a VERY BIG WAY! Never EVER let welding get out of your control. Your wirefeed, travel speed, amperage, and preparation should always be such that you are ALWAYS IN CONTROL. I'll get more in depth about all that soon enough though. Thanks folks for the interest. And zap...maybe we can teach eachother afew tricks too eh. Honestly though, I'm just here to help if I can.ELVIS
Reply:Very nice work.  Do you do all your pipe with wire or do you also run stick?  I am really looking forward to your Vids.  I personally think a vid showing weave technique and timing would be one of the most beneficial learning tools for the ones reading the post.  I guarantee you will not be considered a pest.  We love pics, and informative posts.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Interesting.  I would really like to know WFS and voltage.  I have some of that 7100 in my LN9.  Do ya stick weld still?  I could use some help with 6010.  Probably run 50 lbs in my life.  Mostly I use bare wire or 7018.ThanksDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Back in the day I ran stick almost exclusively because that was what was available to me in the shops/plants I worked at. These were mostly code shops. I've done very little production welding and I wouldn't have it any other way. In more recent years I rarely use it except in cases where my gun will not access. For instance two plates 6 inches wide attached vertically to another plate with only an inch between.I would say that I am equally proficient with stick, but would need a day or so to brush up. In my opinion, stick (7018) results in a better looking weld and is less prone to weld defects which can cause failure. On the negative side, too many starts and stops to dress up, and these are usually the places where defects appear. I will keep the stick thing in mind though for the future since stick is probably the most common type of welding the readers of these posts use. Hey just ask and I'll try and provide..(I even brazed today for the first time in years. A coworker brought in a differential cover with one area pitted and leaking. I tried to tig it using .035 mig wire as filler but burned a hole 1/4 inch wide through it...outer side pitted with rust...rrrrrr. Braze worked very nicely TY. At least till the rest of it finishes rusting).Afew words about wire speed. If it's spittin BB's it's either too fast or your not hot enough. Continuous wire welds should turn out virtually spatter free in the flat position. Since I am never in a hurry and MUST stay in control of every single millimeter of the weld I am working on, I will start out with a slow feed and adjust my amps to suit. If after a test weld (not the job) I find my weld too small or too large I will adjust my feed up or down and THEN re-adjust my amps to get the results I am after. Of course you must never forget that travel speed is part of the equation as well. As is angle of attack, nozzle distance from weld, to weave or not to weave, and whether you are running the weld perfectly flat or slightly uphand or downhand (both produce different results). I have no "settings" that I regularly use. Each weld to me is unique because no matter how I plan my weld, I often change my mind after completing a pass and decide I will add one more before the final cover pass. This to ensure my cover pass is not too high but not too shallow as well. 1/8 inch crown is standard for anything piping or vessel. I would call myself a "feel" welder. I know when it's right and when it's wrong. But I'm getting way ahead of myself here. Last thing...I'm certifying this week sometime on titanium (not sure yet if pure or an alloy). I will CERTAINLY take many pics and or vids of the project and share them since I don't get my hands on titanium very often in my welding world. ELVIS
Reply:Sorry LOL, one more thing I need to say that I believe is MOST important about welding besides being in control of the process. This for less experienced welders. You HAVE to know what you are looking at. It doesn't matter if it's stainless, carbon steel, inconel, thick, thin, overhead, flat, inside, outside. Once you know what you are seeing and are in control of the weld at all times, welding becomes much easier. The hardest part about weaving is SEEING your puddle fuse with the edge you are moving towards and doing it repeatedly with a steady hand for an entire weld (most desireable), seeing whether you are welding in the desired position (uphand, downhand, flat - with the helmet down this can be challenging), and seeing how much buildup you are depositing to get the desired height. To me it's all about seeing. The weld doesn't make itself just by moving the rod/gun left and right, it has to be applied. Only then will you pass x-ray consistently and create welds that are things of beauty.ELVIS
Reply:excelent thread Elvis! thank youand like its been said already, keep it coming, and pester away.we are all here to learn (and some to teach, alot!) so people in the know are always welcome, and appreciated!again thank you, and looking forward to more
Reply:Titanium preliminaries started today. I'm just getting a feel for the metal. Ran some stringers to start off...1/16 filler wire. Base metal 1/4 inch thick. A piece of scrap (a rather expensive one at that).
Reply:Grinding a bevel on titanium. OOO how pretty! This stuff is very hard (I'd compare it to grinding hard-facing...don't ask). I found that the grinding debris attaches itself to the base metal in a molecular way...not as dust or spatter, I was unable to wire brush it off. I will use masking tape over the exposed surface while grinding in the future. And it eats sanding discs too...very hard stuff.
Reply:A standard fit up for a 1G flat position test. 1/8 inch gap, 1/16 land, 45 degree bevel, using 2 pieces of scrap. This is a trial run so I can judge the characteristics of the molten metal (wire feed/temp) under these circumstances.
Reply:This is a backing shield I rigged up so I can purge (evacuate the atmosphere) the entire length of the root from the bottom side. Argon will flow through the top end and out the bottom.This is the piece in the fixture ready to be welded. Top shows hose attached pushing argon through the hole in the masking tape near the bottom. One minute should do for purge. There are 2 plates of carbon steel taped down to the work area covered with stainless to protect the titanium from contact with carbon steel. This raises the workpiece about 1/2 inch off the table to create a void that argon will fill. The masking tape along the outside edges does not burn away and keeps the purge intact. The masking tape along the length of the weld burns away...you guessed it, at the same rate you are welding thereby keeping a very nice purge going. More later....going boating.ELVISP.S. sorry for the incompleteness...I always think of things after the fact to tell because I've never tried to teach in this way before. I'll try and do better...just bear with me.
Reply:OPS....ok the bevel was more like 37 degrees...no biggie
Reply:Carbide brazing videohttp://www.tools-woodworking.com/video.html
Reply:Originally Posted by ElvisWThis post is directed at those who visit this forum who have, or are interested in a career in welding. It is possible for me to describe in detail welding procedures/techniques which would be invaluable to the welder wannabe. I would also include pics, and short videos where necessary. I am posting this to see how much interest something like this would generate. If there is enough interest, I will begin compiling my content for lesson number one. Lesson 1, though advanced, would be a full understanding of the techniques and procedures required to produce quality root passes on carbon steel piping or pressure vessel that will pass x-ray q/c all week long. Be advised, while this information is valuable to the beginner, it is aimed at the advanced "career" welder who has access to the equipment needed and desires to upgrade his/her welding portfolio. Very soon I will post pics of the project I am currently working on. In this way I can demonstrate that I have the skills required. I will do this because our/my occupation is a dying breed and because I would take pride in knowing that I have helped someone become a better welder. Please post responses.
Reply:i learn somthing every day if i dont it is probably because i didnt leave the house.....lol.........  keep the pics coming63' Lincoln SA200 2008 miller trailblazer 302fibre-metal pipelinermiller camo BWEand all the guns and ammo a growin boy needs
Reply:Ow, I like exotic welding pictures from real honest-to-God welding shops.  Newby, first welding cart pics just don't do it for me anymore.  I might be becoming a junkie.WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:Elvis, your pipe work looks great. Are you welding right at 12 o'clock? With the fluxcore on my positioner the cap was always too flat for my tastes. I went to about 10:30 which let me stack the weave a little taller almost like an uphill progression but still rolling. Also what is joint design on the nozzles with the reinforcment pads? Are the pads and the hole for the tap cut on an angle for access to the root or is the pipe with the weldneck simply slid in and welded around. I look forward to reading your tutorial. I'm always willing to pick up some knowledge from someone that has great skill in the field I work in and is willing to share it.
Reply:First, I will not lose focus on my original intent. My postings on Titanium are for the purpose of sharing at this time. I still have loads to do with regard to my FIRST post (thx gnm109). So far I see that all questions are directed at things I have missed or that I have not described fully.OK...getting ahead of myself yet again..thegerm....I welded exactly where you said regarding my cover pass in a previous photo. This is so my filler metal falls back and I can see EXACTLY what I am fusing...meaning the top side and the bottom side. If I were flat the view seems to get sort of unseeable and I don't know for sure if I am fusing. That is the trick with multiple passes.....fusing both sides. After which I do a slight grind along each side of the weld to eliminate flux or undercut that could cause a failure. If you have no undercut and your cover pass is at least 1/16 above the base metal you will never have any problems (this provided you have no porosity etc.) The fit for the repad..I have only to backweld from the inside concentrating on full penetration. The shell is beveled on the outside. Obviously the backweld (outside in this case) cannot be ground from the outside, so I need to add just enough filler to penetrate (from the inside), then clean the outside as best as possible before running a very hot TIG pass from the outside over that. A quick die check tells me if I have holes. Bottom line is they (QC people) rarely x-ray this type of joint. Afterwards I fill the bevel till it's flush or slightly over. Then I grind it smooth to the contour of the shell. Lower the repad and voula. I usually grind then sand the backweld flush. Followed by a die check. Many times there will be a failure. After I fix these I call the backweld done.I was unable today to get an accurate amp/volt reading for the welds I made in my last post (carbon steel) because I started my titanium project. As per my original post, my energy to spare will go to compiling a fairly comprehensive laymans guide to consistent x-ray quality welds on schedule 80 carbon steel piping using the procedures I commonly use at work which may or may not correspond with traditional code procedures. Perhaps it would be prudent at this point to outline what exactly is needed/desired for this information to do you some good. I'm fresh off the boat but here goes...
Reply:geez I'm reading that back now and thinkin whoa boy....but "I" know what I'm talking about....sorry
Reply:The so called lesson I related to previously begins here...and I'll say a short prayer now so I may be guided by the light *wink*. I apologize in advance for any misinformation given as I only intend to try and share my own proven procedures with anyone who wants to use them whether or not they conform to traditional code procedures. None of what I share, though, is sub-code by any means. Quite the opposite. I just don't want to mislead anyone or use terminology that is confusing or incorrect. I don't know if I can pull it off but my intent is to provide within these posts, the tools necessary to TIG root, and finish weld carbon steel as applied to piping or pressure vessel. I need to narrow this down considerably so.....why don't we start somewhere.I'm not going to give this process any code designation since it can be used in many applications
Reply:My examples I have decided are going to be 3 inch schedule 80 (carbon steel)pipe. I will cut them into 2 inch lengths. I'll prep them first by removing all laquer/varnish/millscale from both inside and out leaving only a shiny clean metal surface (preferably sanded and without gouges). I will grind the edges to a 40-30 degree bevel leaving a 1/16 land ( I have no diagram to share so do a google search on butt weld prep). That covers material.The root will be a TIG process done with 3/32 filler wire, with a foot controller, and a positioner. For those without a foot controller I say oh boy...a positioner you can do without though. In my case there will be a positioner. The remaining pass will be flux core. Perhaps there will be 2.The reason for 3 inch pipe with 1/4 inch wall is so you can easily see your own backweld which is to be performed from the outside. The goal is to make the inside look as good as the outside (as if there were a little man in there welding right along with you). Backwelds can look sooooo nice if you know what you are seeing. With proper temp control, wire feed, angle, and an eye for how molten metal flows they easily look as good as the flip side.So go get some 3 inch schedule 80 folks or whatever you got so long as its prepped the way I've said. My pics/videos will exhibit the above so we're all on the same page.
Reply:>>>thegermthe repad is simply wired up out of the way to the flange above while the weld is completed below it, then lowered and welded itself
Reply:For the really newbies I will try and have a coworker cut me some pipe to those specs and take a pic or two to show what we are going for with regard to the work pieces.ELVIS
Reply:Just a note for all of you. I work in aviation with titanium everyday. Do not use a lead pencil to mark cut lines. It causes the metal to become brittle over time and can crack at where the pencil line was. The inspectors at my job will scrap the part if they see it has been marked with lead pencilfood for thought.....People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.  Unknown Pro Mig 175Hyphertherm 600Lots of toys at work
Reply:I am glad someone brought this ^^^^ up.The use of masking tape on Elvis' joint is prohibited for the same reason (Sorry, Elvis) when the tape 'burns' away it leaves carbon, hot titanium bonds with just about everything, carbon included, forming the brittle EXTREMELY hard compound titanium carbide. This is the reason titanium should be welded in a argon 'bubble', or with a trailing gas shoe, and at the very least a champagne nozzle, both the shoe and nozzle will require back gasing.The blue/gold coloration in Elvis' test piece is titanium nitride from contact with air (nitrogen) while hot, and is a failed weld.Last edited by ChamferTrode; 06-21-2007 at 08:36 AM.
Reply:Chamfertrode is absolutely right. My information that I passed to my boss came from http://www.rti-intl.com/tag/weld. I am pushing for an enclosed space fully purged, however boss doesn't believe these steps are necessary. It is often this way in my shop where corners are cut to meet unrealistic deadlines. More often than not items shipped have been reworked at least once. When first piece fails QC they will then invest in the proper equipment to do the job CORRECTLY. In this case at the very least a trailing shield as Chamfertrode has mentioned. No harm done at this point though. Still messing around with the scrap for now. Just a quick note, I find titanium flows almost exactly like inconel if that's of any use.ELVIS
Reply:elvis i cant understand why you should have been unsure about the reception your thread would receive.you have a lot of skill to share and seem very good at relaying knowledge.very good indeed, and keep it coming.
Reply:Elvis- I have read over most of the posts' and didn't see where you listed joint configuration and what you did your root pass with. I am a U stamp fabricator and open to anything that will enhance my shop and cut down on rework. Thanks.. PS.
Reply:Sorry... there was a couple more pages of posts'. I am referring to the carbon steel vessel on the first page. Thanks!
Reply:This is my most important tool. I get VERY mad when someone is using my armrest. To perform consistent quality welds I find an armrest a must. I HIGHLY recommend using some sort of brace rather than resting your arms/hands on the workpiece. The why of this I believe is apparent. Steady = pretty, much less heat to fry your gloves and the fingers inside. Not to mention keeping that tungsten out of the puddle.
Reply:I was able to prepare my example piping today. For experienced welders the prep for this is common. This photo depicts proper prep for the joint I will cover. The only difference between this prep and the prep used in the pressure vessel in previous posts is the circumference and thickness of the pipe. The root will be performed with TIG from the outside using 3/32 wire. I will cover only the root initially making sure I have covered all aspects before moving on to subsequent pass(s). These two pieces need to be tack welded in 4 places leaving a 1/8 gap. Less than 1/8 and I will need to start a new thread. Same with larger. It goes without saying that both pieces should be aligned perfectly so as not to cause an internal mismatch (though these are very common and P me off to no end daily since they can usually be avoided.
Reply:Remember that the object here is to obtain a flawless root pass the first time around. It is a luxury to do your welds with access to the root from the inside (for back grinding, repair or testing should it be needed). Many times there IS NO ACCESS. There is no room for error and ultimately that is the real goal. To pass an x-ray without having to touch the root once it is welded (cleanup).
Reply:Elvis, I am not trying to knock ya at all.  I can see you have a great deal of talent in your field, but will your demonstrations be centered on working with a pipe in a positioner?   The reason I ask is the vast majority of us out here that will be learning from this thread have no positioner, and probably will never have the pleasure of welding with the aid of one.  I think your demonstrations are great but I feel they might be a bit more helpful to the majority of us if you geared more toward a pipe joint in a fixed position considering that is how most of us will be welding.  Just a thought, and again, very nice work.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I was about to address that very thing. A positioner is a valuable tool but is not a necessity. I think I said that previously. In any event, tack down a piece of angle iron to a table to serve as a cradle for the piece if you do not have a positioner. If you intend to use an armrest then there is no need to clamp the work down as you will be spinning it as the weld progresses. I am not going to cover welding this joint out of position (overhead/vertical up/ or down). The weld can be completed fully with the TIG process, and I will expand my posts to include that. As stated, I will explain finishing the weld with the flux core process also. The only advantage of flux core is getting it done faster. I'd prefer to sit on my butt all day long TIGGING my life away but those bosses and their deadlines...As for videos, I have found my dig camera to be NOT up to the project. Therefore I have to use my gf's dig cam which will do a fine job I am sure with someone holding the camera directly against a number 10 or 11 filter plate. I use the gold reflector and because I prefer it, I want to use it in my videos. If this is a problem and you would prefer a standard filter plate I can change that. I need to find a way then to get the digital video off the cam and onto my PC. I recently blew up my ATI all-in-wonder which gave me s-video input to pc. I will make this a priority. In the meantime I will do as much dialogue as possible to clarify all prior to actual welding. Keep in mind I have to do all this stuff when the boss isn't looking so have patience and read back if something is not clear. All questions are welcome. Thanks for the interest people. I hope I can do you some good.ELVIS
Reply:I could in the future, start an entirely different thread with the focus on 6G out of position. I have to wonder though how useful that would be to the average welder? Or the beginner for that matter. But it would be worth it if it helped some advanced welders who need this type of training. May I say thank you again for the interest and also that I am not trying to be a "joe welder" here either. ELVIS