Open question for Jolly Roger and Black Wolf

admin

I have read your posts in the "Why are all the new guys hung up on tig? " and agree with most of what the both of you have posted however, in regards to being held responsible for weld failure I think it should be noted what causes a failure. It widely known that when we repair or fabricate anything we assume that it will be used within its original designed purpose and not used beyond its engineered capabilities. How do we know that the customer will use the repaird acordingly and not take it beyond it's intended strength of failure. What if he gets hurt because he uses it beyond its intended strenght and blames the weldor, how can you prove you did the weld in a correct way and not be held responsible for his carelessness.               Troye
Reply:This is an open question, right? So I can chime in?Good. Originally Posted by troyeIt widely known that when we repair or fabricate anything we assume that it will be used within its original designed purpose and not used beyond its engineered capabilities.  How do we know that the customer will use the repaird acordingly and not take it beyond it's intended strength of failure.
Reply:In answer to the first part of your question you always assume they are going to overload or misuse and build accordingly. I learned to weld from Oldtimer and one of the first things he taught me was this: "If quarter inch will do it, then build it out of half inch because they are going to tear it up anyway." It ha served me well.Now for the second part. Should it come down to it the lawyers take care of that part. Most of my customers work with heavy equipment and understand that everything has it's limits. They also understand that anything that has failed once can and probably will again. If I have doubts about safety or reliability I don't do the work.Most work is covered by a code, regulation or some type of standard that defines how the work will be done.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Hey, thanks for the question........I feel like a celebrity!!!Everything I had to say has been said.  I follow tried and true pre-welding preparation, and proper welding procedures.  I also build in a little margin of safety when the application requires it.If it is a previous failure, I discuss it over with the customer - possible reasons for failure, possible improvements to help prevent future failure etc etc, AND possibility of future failure.If I do not feel comfortable with the options before me as discussed with the customer, I decline the work.  I will not do a job that I KNOW is wrong or unsafe, just because the customer says so.  To do that, in my opinion, is unprofessional.I believe that this is going slightly Off-Topic from the point that I was trying to make regarding newcombers getting in over there heads and causing individuals, or the general public, to be in danger -  but it is a very valid question all the same.Hope it helped.Last edited by Black Wolf; 03-20-2008 at 09:27 PM.Later,Jason
Reply:Great answers from all of you;First of all, this thread is not intended to criticize, diminish or disparage any posts on it, rather it is intended to engage in an intelligent discussion between weldors to arrive at a logical conculsion about responsiblility in welding and whose fault it is when something fails.   This is my own opinion;         It is assumed to be true that a weldor does possess certifications before he would attempt to repair or fabricate anything for anyone and that these certifications would be all the guarantee that is required to prove that the welds were done correctly and that he would not be responsible for someone else's carelessness.  It is also true that we live in a litigious society and one my find himself in a lawsuit just for looking at someone the wrong way. I am sure we all know someone who was disabled all the way up to the day he got his settlement and the day after by some benevolent miracle he walks without the use of a crutch or cane. I did not carry insurance for the about the first 20 or so years I  was in the welding business however I have it for the past 8 yrs. even though I am semi-retired.Do you believe every self-employed weldor should at least have some insurance.               Troye
Reply:I'll comment a little about insurance. Yes, I think every self-employrd welder should have insurance even if only welding for the general public. Some if not all indrustries require it. When I was contracting in the oil field the companies required a million dollar liability policy. That was years ago and I haven't kept up with costs but the last I heard was 5 million dollars.Anyone can sue anyone and you have to defend yourself. Even if you win it is still very expensive. A friend of mine owns a large machine and welding shop and works on about anything. A few years ago an electrical contractor brought in a bucket truck to have a pivot pin replaced. The shop found some problems with the mount assembly and explained to the company that they were looking at a major failure. They declined to repair it. A few few months later the mount failed and the boom assembly and bucket fell, severely injuring the operator. They sued my friend for not repairing the thing correctly. His insurance company took over and fought the lawsuit and won.
Reply:If you are a self employed weldor then yes insurance is needed.  I have general liability but most times when working for a contractor they have are required to have liability insurance, and the weldors will be under his "umbrella".  As far as certs go they guarantee nothing.  I am not certified in any process, but will put my work against anyone.  All a cert does is say that a person was capable of making satisfactory weld on the day given.  I have seen guys pass a test to work one place, and then bust the same test at a different time.  Just because a person is certified does not mean that they know how to fabricate and or repair something which is what you are talking about.  A self employed weldor in the repair or fabrication fields most times has to be the weld engineer, fitter, weldor, as well as the weld inspector himself.  I don't know anyone that is actually in business that is certified in all of those areas.  Now don't get me wrong.  I'm not down playing being certified.  In certain fields and jobs it is required, and for a good reason.  However, don't assume that a cert guarantees anything.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Oldtimer & Hammack - Thanks for the comments and illustrations.I myself believe that insurance is a neccessity.  The amount varies with industry and application.  I know guys that pull onto leases to weld casing bowls that have $2 million, others that have $5 million depending on the oil company.One fellow that I worked for while building oilfield hauling equipment carried  $10 million liability on himself.  I was employed directly by the trucking company, he was a contractor hired to oversee the welding projects.  His reasoning was that if something were to go wrong while we were working for him, that we could burn down the shop, and all the trucks in it, and everything would be covered - just in case.  Much like the blanket policy the Hammack mentioned.I will agree that welding certs or Journeyman certificates, while proving a general level of ability and competence, "guarantee" little or nothing.  Most of the work that I do on a daily basis is so far off-road from topics covered in a welding course, that I am pretty much on my own. I trust my training in joint preparation, follow approved welding procedures, and carefullly select welding processes and filler metals based on the application.   So far, so good.Later,Jason
Reply:I carry no current certs. As a general rule they expire after one year though in construction if you remain with the same company and have no problems with your welds recertification is not necessary. Most have a set policy on that and retesting usually means you were sent packing because of too many repairs. I do all of my welding just like I was testing on that weld. To date I have passed every test I have taken. I do keep my fingers crossed though. In my specialty area I seriously overbuild and over weld everything because I know it is going to be abused. In the last two years the only thing I have worked on that has had a failure is a set of forks on the biggest Allis Chalmers front loader I have ever seen. The machine broke in half but the forks are still in great shape. In my experience the major cause of most failures is poor design or substandard welding from the factory.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jolly RogerIn my experience the major cause of most failures is poor design or substandard welding from the factory.