Those with experience, please help!

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here is what I got, its for government contract job.Job which is down in orlando florida for homeland security. All I gotta do is weld 80 pieces of flat bar that are 2" by 5" in width and length. Thats it, my job is just welding that flat bar onto the security cages. I have to weld all four sides of the flat bar which is 3/8" thick. The room is 60 square foot with no windows, and the nearest window is 45 feet away, so I know Im gonna have to run some kind of fume exhaust, but I can manage rigging up something for that. He didnt state what kind of welding process, but with the limited space and no windows, I told him I would most likely tig weld the flat bar to cut down on fumes that stick welding gives off, especially for such a small room. Im not ruling out any other welding process, and starting to think Stick welding will go faster. I dont have a mig gun so thats out of the question.My questions are, 1. How do you right up a proposal, is it just a invoice of some time (this question is not as important as the next ones)2. Im gonna be pretty straight foward, Im very confident in my welding ability's so thats not an issue, but this is my very first job, and this ones a big one, so what kind of quote would you give for 80 pieces of 2" by 5" flat bar welded on all four sides, using 3/32" inch filler (the cages are mild steel). 3. What do you charge for mileage going out to a job site. I mean how much do you charge the customer per mile you traveled? Please put yourself in my shoes, using your years of experience just guestimate what you would charge for a job like this if you had to propose an estimate to a customer. I really need your guy's help, I literally cant afford to lose this job, the bills are depending on it. I thank you all for any help that can be given.
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruz...My questions are, 1. How do you write up a proposal, is it just a invoice of some time (this question is not as important as the next ones)2. Im gonna be pretty straight forward, Im very confident in my welding ability's so thats not an issue, but this is my very first job, and this ones a big one, so what kind of quote would you give for 80 pieces of 2" by 5" flat bar welded on all four sides, using 3/32" inch filler (the cages are mild steel). 3. What do you charge for mileage going out to a job site. I mean how much do you charge the customer per mile you traveled? ...
Reply:As far as the safety goes make sure you can get fresh air INTO the room. Especiallly if the one window does not open. Argon is heavier than air.Read the contract at least 3 times. If there is a penalty clause. Make surethe job can be done in the time given. Stick welding with proper bevels will work.  3/8 is getting thick for tig. Unless you have a large TIG torch.Sounds like a simple straight forward job. Keep track of your time ON PAPERand remember they may have someone checking on you. Keep track of material costs etc.,. Make sure that painting of the weldments is discussed.Clear agreements make NO resentments by either party.The bill is time and materials. Honest and straight forward.Cal several welding shops in the area you will be working and ask their hourly rate. The time charged for begins when you leave your shop and when you return to your shop. SIMPLE, HONEST.Last edited by Donald Branscom; 05-14-2008 at 02:54 PM.
Reply:I got smart and called local welding shops here posing like I needed work, and got them to do the leg work.  I just took the price work up of 15 shops, and averaged the prices to get a good around estimate.  Its dirty to have people think your giving them work, but desperate times call for desperate measures.  I actually learned allot about what to charge people for different jobs today.  Its funny that when you call local welding shops and tell them your a welder needing help, they could care less, so thats why I resorted to what I did, and got the information I needed.  You figure welders would stick together instead of being such cut throats.  Im just one man with a welder, how much work could I possibly take from there fully stocked shops!.  Maybe thats just the way it is in florida though.  Anyways, no painting is required, and yes I gotta figure something for ventilation because the room has no windows, and the nearest window from the door to the room is 40 feet.  Im gonna try to convince the contracter to let me weld these racks outside, otherwise I might drop the job due to health issues.  94 feet of beads is allot of beads to run in a room with no ventilation, even with some sort of rigged up ventilation Im not too keen on the idea, no matter how much money is involved.  I chose not to go the Tig welding route because one I dont have a water cooler for my torch, and two thats allot of wrist work for a job where aesthetic looks are not something desired.  I can still make a stick welded bead look really good.  These pieces Im welding will have no weight put on them, and will have to have a shear strength of 700 pounds, which is a joke.  Tack welds would take that kind of weight, but whatever.  Overkill to weld all four sides, but thats what the job calls for.  Thanks for those of you with your helpful comments, I appreciate it.
Reply:Actually desperate times call for selling your Toys and paying the bills not wasting other people's time.What happened to Honor in the Military?????????????????????????????
Reply:I would just go buy a wire feeder, and respirator (of the proper type!)You will use the MIG for other jobs if you have it and this sounds like a perfect job for one!  It is cleaner and faster, each will save you time and thus $$. Just my $0.02Me!
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Actually desperate times call for selling your Toys and paying the bills not wasting other people's time.What happened to Honor in the Military?????????????????????????????
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruzI got smart and called local welding shops here posing like I needed work, and got them to do the leg work.
Reply:I have to agree with the last couple of post. We as business owners don't have the time to quote people like yourself a job that you are going to do. Man if you can't quote your own job, sell you **** and go do something else. This just pisses me off when i get a call like what you did with those 15 shops. I can't believe they actually gave you a quote. If any of thos shops are like me i would of told you some bogus number just to see how far that bogus number goes down the line. Hell just to teach you a lesson, I  might bid against you.................I know how to quote my stuff.
Reply:Im just starting out, and dont know much about running a welding buisness.  I try to ask people for help, and people treat my questions like its some big secret in the welding industry.  Give me a break.  Thats why I did what I did, and I dont regret it.  Call it slimey, whatever, I call it being resourceful.  Bid against me, .  It goes to show you that every forum has there village idiots.You guys can sit here and attack me all day long, it will make no difference Ive been through worse things in life than a couple disgruntal forum goers.  So keep em coming!
Reply:"Im just starting out, and dont know much about running a welding buisness. I try to ask people for help, and people treat my questions like its some big secret in the welding industry. Give me a break. Thats why I did what I did, and I dont regret it. Call it slimey, whatever, I call it being resourceful. "Yep we are all village idiots!!!!!!!!!!! I love coming to this site after a hard day of work to read this bull**** that makes me laugh before bed. Good luck with your welding buisness. Its buisness guys like yourself that keeps my buisness going.
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruzI got smart and called local welding shops here posing like I needed work, and got them to do the leg work.  I just took the price work up of 15 shops, and averaged the prices to get a good around estimate.  Its dirty to have people think your giving them work, but desperate times call for desperate measures.  You figure welders would stick together instead of being such cut throats.
Reply:Originally Posted by Ag SpecialtiesYep we are all village idiots!!!!!!!!!!! I love coming to this site after a hard day of work
Reply:Some suggestions. Since it is a government contract, double the amount of time it will take. Since it is your first job, double that amount of time it will take.Increase your insurance liability. Get the proper tools that you will need for the job. If you are unsure on what to bid, don't waste other profitable welding shops time in bidding it out, it will not work for you, their bids would be for them doing the job, not you or your equipment. If you need help learning how to run your business, there are non-profit company’s that can help match you with someone willing to volunteer their time to help you out, DON"T call another shop, they are not the volunteers.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingThe reason most weldors are "cutthroats" as you termed it is because of the very act that you just did.
Reply:Speaking as an owner of a shop, that was very low, IMO. Very low. You said on Miller, what goes around comes around.....best look hard in the mirror, dude. If what you say is true about it coming around...you best duck.   Edit:Ya know, if you put me in that situation and I ever found out, I would be highly motivated to make sure everyone knew about it and also make sure you got a very bad rep ...and deservedly so. You are messing with guys ability to make a living. That has even gotten people hurt. I would think hard before doing this again....and for God's sake stop bragging about it. Last edited by DDA52; 05-15-2008 at 12:10 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by h2oboySome suggestions. Since it is a government contract, double the amount of time it will take. Since it is your first job, double that amount of time it will take.Increase your insurance liability. Get the proper tools that you will need for the job. If you are unsure on what to bid, don't waste other profitable welding shops time in bidding it out, it will not work for you, their bids would be for them doing the job, not you or your equipment. If you need help learning how to run your business, there are non-profit company’s that can help match you with someone willing to volunteer their time to help you out, DON"T call another shop, they are not the volunteers.
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52Speaking as an owner of a shop, that was very low, IMO. Very low. You said on Miller, what goes around comes around.....best look hard in the mirror, dude. If what you say is true about it coming around...you best duck.
Reply:Im going to bed, you guys can continue this circle jerk all night long!
Reply:If you need money.  You need to find out who will inspect your work and when they will pay after work is complete.  By the time you get paid it could be like "found" money. Are you getting this job through a contractor.  If so,  local govt jobs subscribe to the Davis-Bacon Act / Prevailing wage.  Basically there is schedule that each trade is to earn.  If you don't know it, then your contractor could pocket some of the money you should earn.  When I started out I made rounds to local shops.  Only once was I turned down for information.  Anyway, it is good to keep in contact with local shops and show them what you can do, they could pass work your way.  I still visit shops and welders I see out working.Good luckDon't expect everything in one job.  A bunch of small jobs will add up to a big one.
Reply:Wow, this is a tough one. A Marine is taught to cut someone else's throat to survive. Usmcruz is looking out for his family and I'll give him all the slack I can for defending our Nation. 9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruz, yeah thanks for that tid bit, I will log that one away.  Have you been asleep during this whole thread or do you have your head so far up your a$$ that you cant see that I was the one that got pissed on looking for help.  I think your mad because of the fact that I got what I needed, from non helpful buisness owners like yourself.  Poor manners my friend and you will pay for it down the road, so keep on being your self, and a poor excuse for a person.
Reply:Looks like time to put another person on "ignore"Today, 11:06 PMRemove user from ignore listusmcruzThis message is hidden because usmcruz is on your ignore list.View Post Old Today, 11:11 PMRemove user from ignore listusmcruzThis message is hidden because usmcruz is on your ignore list.View Post Old Today, 11:19 PMRemove user from ignore listusmcruzThis message is hidden because usmcruz is on your ignore list. usmcruz does a very good job of making himself look like an a$$.  Must have lots of practice.  Millermatic Passport PlusMillermatic 200Millermatic 350P with PythonXMT 304 /w S-64 feeder and 12RCDynasty 300 DXVictor O/APremier Power Welder for my trail junk.
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in DenverA Marine is taught to cut someone else's throat to survive. Usmcruz is looking out for his family and I'll give him all the slack I can for defending our Nation.
Reply:Black Wolf:I ,too, disagree; and I take no offense to your opinion.9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250Originally Posted by Craig in DenverBlack Wolf:I ,too, disagree; and I take no offense to your opinion.
Reply:All of us in business have gotten requests for quotes over the phone. Do you want them to stop? no . Do you give hard prices over the phone without seeing the job, or seeing drawings? i hope not. The only hard price I give is my hourly rate and minimum hours.  It doesent take any time and is no big secret. If the customer wants a real quote I need to see the job period. Too many times have I heard its just a 15 min job !  anyway my point is that usmc probably did not get real info or price quotes  over the phone that were not either way high because of lack of info or lowballed prices that would not be honored when they actually saw the job. any shop that gave him a quote over the phone with the info provided to us are morons.BTS Welding
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in DenverWow, this is a tough one. A Marine is taught to cut someone else's throat to survive. Usmcruz is looking out for his family and I'll give him all the slack I can for defending our Nation.
Reply:No idea why I am replying again. You obviously do not get it, do not want to and have absolutely zero ethics or moral compunction. Not a good place to be to say he least.Yes, that guy had issues. You would have never seen him coming since he shot the guy at 100yds in a parking lot...defend against that. The point was, you do NOT know who you are dealing with. That other guy was a scammer...which isn't a far cry from what you did. People get homicidal over much, much less these days. I simply put that example out there as an extreme example of what can happen when you try to put one over on people. It can backfire. You don't care, though. So be it. Do what you will. This thread should be a sticky as to exactly how NOT to run a business. Sad.
Reply:I know what he did "sucks" . . . . But lets be real . . . how many of you guys can say honestly . . . .I have never rate shopped my competitors . . .I have never peeked over at another bid laying on a desk . . .I have never quizzed my "friendly LWS" about rates of others . . .I have never asked a customer to share previous bids of competitor with . . .I have always turned my head when a prospective customer waved comparative bids in my face  . . . .I have never traded info or discussed rates with a fellow shop owner to keep the rates in my area up . . .And most of all . . . EVERYONE does it . . . have any of you ever swapped info on quotes from your suppliers to determine who was the cheapest? I know everyone does it because I used to be an industrial salesman . . . But I guess it's OK to screw a vendor . .Millermatic® 251
Reply:To be honest and completely truthful...I have not ever done one thing you posted. Not once in 25+ years of business. There has never been a need to compromise my eithics...and if there were, I still would not do it. I have to be able to look in the mirror the next day. Believe it or not, some people are actually honest.
Reply:usmcruz I think you handle this post a little wrong. Remember that some of the people here could even be quoting the same job.I can't help but wonder if you were trying to get someone here to do the leg work for you. I do think as most have mentioned here that getting other shops to do quote,s for you was wrong on all fronts. I have a small side business and know what you are going through. When I do you quote's I figure how long it will take to do the job, cost of material, and all the consumables I need. It is easy to find other shop hourly rate's to stay compeditive for your area. Now just figure what you are going to charge per hour and multiply it by the hours you think it will take you to do the job. Now one of two things will happen. You will either make money and do a good job, or you will loose money and you will have gained some experience. If you are affraid of loosing money, bid high. It can be better to loose the job than money. Thats how a lot of shops started out and they have bills to pay as well and family's to feed. As to how you should do the job, I would get a mig. Time is money and I can't imagine how your quote will work trying to use a tig. Also I think you should show a little more respect to the members here and I don't think one post here was unfair. Take from it what you can but don't get upset if the answers are not what you are looking for.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52To be honest and completely truthful...I have not ever done one thing you posted. Not once in 25+ years of business. There has never been a need to compromise my eithics...and if there were, I still would not do it. I have to be able to look in the mirror the next day. Believe it or not, some people are actually honest.
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52Well, that was a great response. Bob will be proud of you for that one. Three personal attacks in one post....very nice.
Reply:I will agree, what I did was not right, you have me there, but in the same sentence, how would I of gotten that information if no one was willing to help.  Those of you throwing stones, if I had of called your shop and identified myself as a welder like I did for over half of the shops I called and then got turned down, would you of helped me out?  From the posts Im seeing you would of treated me like all the other shops that were not helpful.  I dont want people to do the leg work for me, thats not my character, all I was asking those shops were numbers on what they charge for there hourly rates, and rates per mile to travel somewhere, thats it!.  Im all new to this, and it seems like no one cares, so I had to do it my way.  You say that you guys never would of done it the way I did, Im gonna say to that the bullsh$t flag is at full mass right now.  During the period of your life's, I guarentee you, that you guys have done something along those lines, and if your not man enough to admit that then I dont know.  DDA52, I dont kwow what to say about you brother.  Do you drink allot before you post?, why dont you lay down before you hurt yourself.
Reply:If I needed help and had access to some Home Brew, that Gift would be with me as I talked face to face with the Weldin' Shops, LWS whoever until I found the person (like just about most folks on here) willing to take the time to help me, WAY before I just COLD called shops.You can rationalize your actions all you want by stating you did what you did for your family but honestly that is BS as you are a Marine with a salary that decided to spend money on Welding Equipment when that money could have gone to "Taking care of your Family"Desperate Times my ***
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1You can rationalize your actions all you want by stating you did what you did for your family but honestly that is BS as you are a Marine with a salary that decided to spend money on Welding Equipment when that money could have gone to "Taking care of your Family"Desperate Times my ***
Reply:usmcruz, well I'm glad mentioned that what you did was wrong. What you did is saying I'm more important than you, to 15 people. That time they took to help you. You took money away from there families. You ungratefully wasted there time. What did you learn? Do you know how to bid a job now? or will you need to do this again on your next job. you bash the help you would have gotten here, yet you didn't even try (one vague post, 8 hour later you had already called 15 shops). There is no honor in this. Getting quotes from the lws is different. you will be using there services. I will agree, what I did was not right, you have me there, but in the same sentence, how would I of gotten that information if no one was willing to help.The ability to lay a bead is not the only requirement for running your own welding company. This is something you should have know how to do before you started your business. If you a ignorant in this aspect than you should properly educate yourself. What you did is like looking at your neighbors answers while taking a test. My advise would be to take a business class at your local community college. Additionally, i would like to thank you for the service you have performed for the US and each one of us.
Reply:Wait a sec, did you 'cold call' shops asking them to basically bid the job, or did you simply call shops asking for the hourly rates? Calling for hourly rates isn't that bad, especially if you are not from that area.Make it clear what you did and I think a lot of people would back off flaming you, unless you were calling for bids!This is a pretty slow forum and to expect responses in one day is a little much. Also like others said, its nearly impossible to bid the job over the net with the information you posted originally. Not nearly enough details. You definitely don't have the right to say no one tried to help you, because you didn't give anyone the chance!I think the bottom line of all of this and the lesson you should take is you are approaching this all wrong. You need to figure out what it will cost YOU in time and materials and quote the job. It will be different for each person/setup. Yes be competitive on hourly rates, but bid the job for yourself. Even if you have no idea what you are doing you'll likely be closer than having a shop with different tooling/experience bid for you. ESPECIALLY since you have little experience, you have got to bid high. Like others said, better to have lost a job than to have lost money. Attacking all these people also isn't a very good idea, even for the simple fact that you will likely have many more questions in the future. You asked a question and got the answer, it might not have been the one you were looking for but you got it. "Supporting your family" and "times are hard" stories aren't going to work here either. Guess what, we are ALL supporting our families! And times are never easy. You have a welder, a computer/internet, military background and a family. Let me tell you your times aren't THAT hard buddy! There are a lot of people who have it a lot worse off and are making it work. Get over yourself and take some of this great advice that has been given! (especially the parts about the insurance you will need and to buy a mig for the job, two really good pieces of advice imho) Last edited by slagmatic; 05-15-2008 at 02:45 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruzI will agree, what I did was not right, you have me there, but in the same sentence, how would I of gotten that information if no one was willing to help.  Those of you throwing stones, if I had of called your shop and identified myself as a welder like I did for over half of the shops I called and then got turned down, would you of helped me out?  From the posts Im seeing you would of treated me like all the other shops that were not helpful.  I dont want people to do the leg work for me, thats not my character, all I was asking those shops were numbers on what they charge for there hourly rates, and rates per mile to travel somewhere, thats it!.  Im all new to this, and it seems like no one cares, so I had to do it my way.  You say that you guys never would of done it the way I did, Im gonna say to that the bullsh flag is at full mass right now.  During the period of your life's, I guarentee you, that you guys have done something along those lines, and if your not man enough to admit that then I dont know.  DDA52, I dont kwow what to say about you brother.  Do you drink allot before you post?, why dont you lay down before you hurt yourself.
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruz  Sometimes in life you have to take risks in order to get ahead, and Im guessing you dont have a family, because if you did you would realize this and not shoot off at the mouth.  You must of grew up with DDA52.
Reply:Yup...not during the playoffs...cept when we bump off the Lakers.Of course, we are having a "bee" problem now.
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52Yup...not during the playoffs...cept when we bump off the Lakers.Of course, we are having a "bee" problem now.
Reply:Moderator mode OFFBusiness owner mode ON  I have been in business most of my life.  Their are things that I would and things that I wouldn't.  Having anyone else do a quote for me I wouldn't do.  We all here have quoted jobs wrong.  Guess what?  If yer low, ya eat it!  If yer high, ya don't get to eat.I have missed on quotes.  I am not afraid to ask for more, but if they say no, then I KEEP MY WORD..... at all costs, smile and finish the job.For your helpWhen do they pay?How long does it take to get into this place?  Hours?Is there power available?Smoke detection in the building?Do you need a "fireman"?Do you have a couple of good fire Extinguishers?  10 lbers?Insurance?David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:man, you fellas came out the gate in a frenzy. now i do not agree totally with the marines decision, but i do occassionaly call the other shops to just ask what their current field rate is. they give me an answer and i get an idea what my prices are like. sometimes i get a call from the same number asking me my rates, and i was able to figure what shop it was coming from by calling from my moms and asking "who's this, i got your number from a friend" oh yes sir, my name is michael with cannon welding.but getting them to do the leg work is above and beyond.times right now are tuff my friends. no-one has any work they can give away. i have a guy here in town, he has the largest welding shop around. he doesn't do any field work but won't refer any to me. he says he doesn't want me welding on his name or getting his work. i offered him my certs and was willing to take his welding test, but no dice. he did say he would sell me his business for 1million. but i had to leave the name the same. what a joke."Retreat hell, were just fighting in the other direction"Miller Trailblazer 302, Extreme 12 VS, Dimension 400, Spectrum 375, HF 251D-1, Milermatic 251 w/ spoolgun  Hypertherm 1000Lincoln sp 1702000 F-450 to haul it
Reply:I stick with my "go get a MIG" comment for this job... As for your business practices, wow I know why you did what you did, but I don't think it will help you much in the long run.  As you can see most shop owners would not be very happy if they found out that you made them bid you job due to your ignorance.  You will find that it's a smaller world than you think, having the entire welding industry hate you guts in your area is not exactly going to help you out.  I owned a stage lighting business (we did the lights and rigging you see at rock shows) in the North East for 13 years.  I started out with just myself and one partner and had NO IDEA how to bid the first LARGE job we got, $63,000 for one weeks work!   It took us three days to do that quote, and we got the job.  The time we spent quoting mid sized shows was about 4-10 hours, that was just a quote!  Most of the time we worked with the same company, and did not charge them to do a quote.  But every now and them we would get a feeling that someone was price shopping (what you did to some extent) and we would charge them $500.00 to bid, as a non refundable deposit so we did not get screwed.  Now there are a lot of lighting company's, and I know almost all the rental guys in each well.  We all charge mostly the same for all the products and services.  To some extent we help each other out since we are all in the same business.  That is not to say we don't make $$ of each other!  An example would be a company we did business with  from the NH boarder was doing a job in my home town.  They had some equipment that was not working and needed it by sun down, I had a unit in rental inventory and rushed it over.  Why? They would do the same for me if I needed it!  I did charge them for the rental at 20% less.  My point is lets say you get this job, and it has a penalty clause of $5000 a day for every day you are over the completion date.  Now lets say you get in a car accident on your way to that job and are now not able to finish it. If you had not pissed off all the welders in your area, you may have stood a chance of getting one of them to save your ***.  It happens...To do a government job just go by the RFP, it should spell out exactly what they want you to do and a lot of the time how they want it done.  If it is not on the RFP it is EXTRA!Me!
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruz  Sometimes in life you have to take risks in order to get ahead, and Im guessing you dont have a family, because if you did you would realize this and not shoot off at the mouth.  You must of grew up with DDA52.
Reply:I'm thinking that time has come to let this thread go the way of the dinosaur.Everyone has explained their positions with crystal clarity.  usmcruz had made it obvious what he feels about our comments and concerns.  He has also made it abundantly clear, that he absolves himself of any wrong-doing, using any number of excuses.There is nothing left to say.I would submit that all of us that have taken offense to his actions, refrain from further comments here, and instead decide if we wish to respond to his shennanigans in the future.  Also decide if he is the type of individual that we would like to give a leg up to, and help succeed.No more name calling. What is done is done, and he will have to live with the consequences.What goes around, comes around, and it picks up speed.Later,Jason
Reply:This whole thread has been overwhelming at best..What are we going to do next...I think if we bake some cookies (Your choice) and top them with icecream that would be nice..From what I understand you can't be unhappy or angry with a bowl of Icecream in your hands..Or a stack of pancakes..With cookies..I can't eat icecream (Lactose intolerant) and have no desire for pancakes..So count me out.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Zap, ain't you seen the comercial?  GUYS DON"T BAKE!SA200,Ranger8,Trailblazer251NT,MM250,Dayton225AC,T  D-XL75,SpoolMate3545SGA100C,HF-15-1  RFCS-14 When I stick it, it stays stuck!