got pics of my t joint welds.....whatcha think?

admin

well i finally brought home one of my weld pieces.....it was just scrap metal in the shop...im the guy who is doing the 10 week MIG welding course...i didnt know whether to start a new thread or i should of kept it with my other one....but anyways...we are 8 days into our course...it goes M-T-TH 6-10 pm.  about 20 hours of actual welding time in so far....they let us sit down the first few days of class to get the hang of layin down beads.   but my last 2 classes i been making myself stand up  and weld because i heard they dont let u sit when MIG welding when actually on the work force....so that was a little hard to get used to it....but im defianetly getting a little better.  i think i finally found my most comfortable height to tack it.  the pics are of a multi pass.  1st pass was the center weld, 2nd was bottom and 3rd was top...i have trouble with undercutting.  yesterday i had a lot of trouble with my angles for the 2nd and 3rd passes.  but today i think i got a LITTLE bit better grasp on it.  i also improved a little today on steadiness and trying to be in a good position for the entire weld....about the pics....well im a lefty so in 3 of the pics im traveling left to right.its about a 6 inch weld.  for today this is what my average passes looked like on the t-joints i messed around with today.....some were even way better but also others were way worse...this is one were i did allright as far as undercutting...obviously still got lots to learn tho.  what i think i need to improve on from these pics is how straight i can get the weld...reducing all that splatter...undercutting....well....what do you think?....and be brutal.Thanks guys.josh Attached Images
Reply:thats alot of spatter, what shielding gas are you using? wire speed, volts?for 20 hours looks good to me
Reply:bigman,The welds look good. Need a little tweek to get rid of the spadder, and undercutting. Could be wire speed, gun angle, gun movement, right handed gun, volts. Try changing ONE thing at a time and leave the rest the same. Should be drag on direction for greater penetration. Are you using Co2 gas 25-30 CFH? comfortable height to tack it, this is GOOD. Is it comfortable to weld at that height? Keep the nozzle cleaned of spatter. What position are the welds? Keep focused when weldingWaldo
Reply:Crank the heat and spray that stuff on there.  It will eliminate the spatter.
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidCrank the heat and spray that stuff on there.  It will eliminate the spatter.
Reply:Originally Posted by z0diac^^^ IGNORE THAT.99% chance your machine can't produce that kind of amps and volts (you'll need 27+ volts) and you'll also need a different mix of gas to get spray transfer - C25 or straight argon won't do it.  You *can* 'mimic' spray transfer though if you can get above 27 volts and probably 250 amps.  But it won't be a true spray.
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidHow do you "mimic spray" transfer?You're 100% wrong.  I have sprayed using a small machine like a Handler 135.  With smaller wires, you can spray at well under 27 volts.
Reply:hey all...thanks for your input on my welds from tuesdays class....well todays thursday (no class on wednesdays) and i got new t-joint pics from tonights class....i feel like im getting a better understanding and feel for the angles im suposed to be at for each individual pass of the 3 passes.  i also think im getting better at not undercutting but i still think its an issue in my welds.....like i said earlier in my first post for tuesdays welds...there were worst welds i did...these pics are of my better ones...there were worst ones and a good amount of nice ones too....and that damn spatter....i cant seem to solve that problem....might of been a little better today but i still need to work on it....like when i flip down my helmet and pull the trigger...it makes this popping noise...like popcorn or firecrackers and then i finally get it under control and it sounds like sizzeling bacon.  i was welding on 1/4 inch thick steel and my voltage was anywere from 20.5-21.5 volts.  my wire speed...the dial was on or a tad bit past 3.  my gas was 75/25????  does that sound right??  75% argon i believe and 25%.....ahh i cant think of it...its right on the tip of my tounge.  o well...dammit.  i feel ALOT more comfortable standing and welding than i did a week ago so im happy about that.  well guys thanks for your critiques....hope i can get some on todays pics....remember...be brutal...i want to learn... thanks.oh and one more thing i thought id let you guys now....i make sure i keep the nozzle cleaned out of built up spatter and all....clean it out with my mig pliers...so i dont think thats the problem with my spatter....i do it pretty often too....ok im done nowjosh Attached ImagesLast edited by bigman19; 05-23-2008 at 01:35 AM.Reason: one more thing to say...
Reply:I think y'all are talking about the difference or transition between true spray and globular transfer.  They are pretty similar in the way they "feel" putting down.  Both weld with droplets, not by shorting the wire to the workpiece...one just has bigger droplets and lower welding current (globular).Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:To me (not a pro) it looks like you are moving too fast, the lines on the weld should be more circular and less pointy. Just try going slower before you tweak any settings. -Dan
Reply:Originally Posted by ironkenzodiac is dead right, to my knowlege, you can't spray proper with less than 80% Ar.
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidDoes your knowledge include trying it?Further, reading my post will tell you that my main point was that you do not have to have 27 volts to spray.  Looking at the welds he's making, I can guarantee you that his machine has the ability to spray, using the right wire and gas.
Reply:75-25 argon-CO2, aka C-25, standard gas mix for short-circuit MIG welding.Maybe try nudging your voltage down a tiny bit, if the volts are a bit high you might be bordering on the globular-transfer range.Per Miller's MIG handbook (you can get a PDF copy right from the Miller website, Lincoln has similar info and ESAB probably has info as well) in the section on troubleshooting spatter, causes include:- wire speed too high, turn down the wire speed;- volts too high, turn down the voltage;- electrode stick-out too long, decrease the electrode stick-out;- dirty workpiece, clean the workpiece before welding;- insufficient shielding gas at the arc, increase gas flow (too much is also bad!) and watch out for drafts/breezes/etc blowing the gas away (but your welds don't look oxidized, so I don't think the problem is with the gas flow/coverage);- dirty welding wire, use clean wire and/or clean the drive rolls and/or clean/replace the gun liner.Also, you posted that the workpieces are 1/4 inch thick, but what diameter wire are you using and what machine are you using?  Because a wire speed of 3 (out of 10?) means a vastly different wire speed (and amperage) on a 120V 130-140 amp class MIG machine versus a 240V 180 amp class machine versus a 240V 210-220 amp class machine versus etc, etc, etc.My guesses are volts too high AND too much stick-out AND moving too fast.
Reply:Originally Posted by ironkenevery day for 5 yrs.......does that count? I was referring to the gas selection. Don't be a dick.
Reply:BTW, high wire speed is usually indicated by a lot of small spatter.  Low wire speed is usually indicated by fewer, but larger spatter.  Also notice how much of the spatter has trails behind them like a comet.  This tells me that the wire speed on his welds may be too high.  Or it could just be a case of moving too slow.
Reply:20-21v on 1/4"?? what happen to the days of hot and hotter settings?We are also not allowed to use whip technique in our shop.
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidIf you can't do it, I'll have to say no...it doesn't count.  If you can't do it, you're obviously not doing something right.I've sprayed on a Hobart 135 (115V machine), with C-25 (less than 80% argon).  If you think stating facts makes me a dick, then I'll have to live with it.
Reply:Originally Posted by ironkenAgain, I was referring to gas S E L E C T I O N....do you copy that? Not all of us are as good at welding as yourself or as good at building ourselves up as you (yes, I went to the link in your profile......you are very proud of yourself).
Reply:O.K. there Lord of the Arc....I surrender....I'm out gunned......Oh wait. The first link you provided was referring to spray transfer on STAINLESS and the second link was referring to PULSED Spray. Through assumption, I was under the impression we were in a discussion concerning mild carbon steel being that's what the person who inquired in the first place was working with. Read back in your reply to my agreement with zodiac's post. You opened fire. Now it looks like you do web searches to answer questions......Original! A little quote from you to me: "I'm speaking of what can be achieved, not about what can be achieved by you." and don't forget, "If you just have a chip on your shoulder and want to pick a fight, please go elsewhere to do it." For somebody that doesn't want a fight, you sure throw alot of gas on the fire. Now, I'll retreat back to my hole and try to get the taste of vomit out of my mouth after reading your resume.......outLast edited by ironken; 05-23-2008 at 09:34 PM.Yeah, yeah, I know you are a weldor too. But, are you a good one?
Reply:Originally Posted by ironkenblah, blah, blah [insert jibberish here]
Reply:biff it out boys!3rd Year Boily.EDIT: TRADE QUALIFIED! WOOPWOOP
Reply:I always thought welding was like medicine. Doctors don't know everything, they practice medicine. Just like we practice.What follows is only my experience, Im not here to start a pissing match.I am working on a project right now, the WPS specifies spray transfer only. It dictates the wire, the gas, and the range for machine settings. This is for a division of the Sandvik Corp. that makes mining equipment. They're engineers wrote it..035 Lincoln L-56 and C10. And it sprays at 24 volts. When I accidently grabbed C25 it didnt perform like it did with the C10. Wasn't as smooth, very erratic.This is taken from Praxairs website.....For the part IArgon-Carbon Dioxide Mixtures -- Praxair's StarGoldTM and Mig Mix GoldTM BlendsArgon-carbon dioxide blends are mainly used on carbon and low-alloy steels and have limited application on stainless steels. Carbon dioxide added to argon, at higher current levels, increases spatter.In GMAW, a slightly higher current level must be reached when using argon-carbon dioxide in order to establish and maintain stable spray transfer. Above approximately 20% carbon dioxide, spray transfer becomes unstable and periodic short-circuiting and globular transfer occurs.ESAB siteArgon-Carbon Dioxide MixturesThe argon-carbon dioxide mixtures are mainly used on carbon and low alloy steels and limited applicationon stainless steels. The argon additions to CO2 decrease the spatter levels usually experienced with pureCO2 mixtures. Small CO2 additions to argon produce the same spray arc characteristics as small 02additions. The difference lies mostly in the higher spray arc transition currents of argon - CO2 mixtures. InGMAW welding with CO2 additions, a slightly higher current level must be reached in order to establish andmaintain stable spray transfer of metal across the arc. Oxygen additions reduce the spray transfer transitioncurrent. Above approximately 20% CO2 spray transfer becomes unstable and random short circuiting andglobular transfer occurs.Engloid, the link to Lincolns site refering to spray transfer on Stainless made no mention of any gases containing more than a couple points of other gases, and made no mention of C25. What am I missing?Im not saying its impossible, or that I can or cant spray with C25. Its like the difference between 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington,sure it CAN work but sometimes it wont!Last edited by Burnit; 05-23-2008 at 10:58 PM.Yup
Reply:Originally Posted by BurnitEngloid, the link to Lincolns site refering to spray transfer on Stainless made no mention of any gases containing more than a couple points of other gases, and made no mention of C25. What am I missing?
Reply:But what does that have to do with the Lincoln page talkin about the stainless,seriously, Im not trying to be a dick, what am I missing? It doesnt say anything about mixes with less than around 90% argon,yeah it allows it, but you wouldnt go out and buy C25 just to spray withYup
Reply:Originally Posted by BurnitBut what does that have to do with the Lincoln page talkin about the stainless,seriously, Im not trying to be a dick, what am I missing? It doesnt say anything about mixes with less than around 90% argon,yeah it allows it, but you wouldnt go out and buy C25 just to spray withO.K. Engload. You keep saying that I can't do, blah, blah. I'm not arguing with you anymore. You have been proven wrong several times here. Run acetylene as a shielding gas for all I give a sh#t. In fact, please try that. Friggin' know it all, too dang stupid to admit wrong.......C25 = globular transfer. Call it what you want.Yeah, yeah, I know you are a weldor too. But, are you a good one?
Reply:Originally Posted by ironkenO.K. Engload. You keep saying that I can't do, blah, blah. I'm not arguing with you anymore.
Reply:damn i didnt know i was gonna start this big debate on spray arcing....and i didnt have a clue what that was until i read all this debate...none the less tho i dont think my instructors would want us to use that as a way to fix my spatter problems as from what i read it seems like an easy way to fix that problem...i think they want me to learn to weld without the spatter 1st before i do i what u guys here are argueing about....but thanks for the advice...i guess.Last edited by bigman19; 05-25-2008 at 12:38 AM.Reason: messed up
Reply:bigman, you are correct.  Master one technique before moving to another.  If it is popping and then settling down I would suggest holding a little closer to the work.  Your Voltage sounds about where I would run, but it could be you have too much stick out.  Regardless of what you try, only change one variable and leave the rest alone.  That way you can tell what results you get from the change.  Just for the sake of saying, my two migs are 28 volt machines and I have never been able to get a true spray with 75/25 regardless of what settings I used.  In my experience it's gonna take a pretty large machine to spray with 75/25  Well over 28 volts from my experience.Last edited by Hammack_Welding; 05-25-2008 at 12:56 AM.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:thank you hammack for your advice....im going to try that changing one variable at a time idea....now the instructors are letting us play with the machines so we get a feel for troubleshooting and what not...besides the spatter tho are the welds looking good??  i do use a whipping techinique which is what the instructor showed me when the course first started.  and i think i probably do need to slow my movement down just a tad.  see one thing im nervous about is this course being 10 weeks long....what happens when i actually get a job and go onto the work force to weld....how do companies deal with new welders and there novice mistakes such a spatter and im sure other mistakes as well....i mean its different than from welding at school....all im doing is welding on scraps and its no big deal if i mess up a piece....at work...well there is work to be done....the company pays for there materials and messing up only means waste....are companies pretty understanding of new welders and the fact that it just might take a while for some to get a hang of things?thanks.josh
Reply:The whipping technique in my opinion is over rated, and in fact can be the cause for some of your problems.  Run your beads nice and steady with a slight push of the gun.  Just looking at the pics a wire wheel on a grinder would probably clean 90% of the spatter off in a second.  However I still think something is off a touch in your settings.  I would try backing off the wire speed a touch and see what happens.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by ironkenO.K. Engload. You keep saying that I can't do, blah, blah. I'm not arguing with you anymore. You have been proven wrong several times here. Run acetylene as a shielding gas for all I give a sh#t. In fact, please try that. Friggin' know it all, too dang stupid to admit wrong.......C25 = globular transfer. Call it what you want.
Reply:""Spray Arc Welding By raising the welding current and voltage still further, the metal transfer will become a true spray arc. The minimum welding current at which this occurs is called the transition current. Table 1-2 shows typical values of transition current for various filler metals and shielding gases. As seen in this table, the transition current depends on the metal wire diameter and shielding gas. However, if the shielding gas for welding carbon steel contains more than about 15% CO2 there is no transition from globular transfer to spray transfer.""http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig1_7.htmAll credit for the above goes to ESAB for being kind enough to offer this type of info for free. All arguements should also be directed to ESAB.
Reply:Originally Posted by Go1lumEngloid I got your back on this one. I too have also done spray transfer with C-25. And ironken your an idiot to even think that acetylene can even be hooked up as a shielding gas. The CGA fittings are different. Maybe if you did some special rigging lol. But i also agree that i typically wouldn't do spray transfer (not including pulse) on less than 1/4" material with .045" wire and 95-5 shielding.
Reply:Hammack...thanks. Thanks to you Sandy as well for proving what I was driving at. Go1lum, you are an idiot.....I was being funny when I suggested that Engload use Acetylene as a shielding gas. I am however serious when I say that you should try acetylene as a shielding gas. I understand that the CGA fitting on the acetylene cylinder valve is different from an inert gas valve.....Just braze your flowmeter setup to the acetylene cylinder's valve. Lemme know how that works out for ya there jerky......Yeah, yeah, I know you are a weldor too. But, are you a good one?
Reply:Originally Posted by ironkenHammack...thanks. Thanks to you Sandy as well for proving what I was driving at. Go1lum, you are an idiot.....I was being funny when I suggested that Engload use Acetylene as a shielding gas. I am however serious when I say that you should try acetylene as a shielding gas. I understand that the CGA fitting on the acetylene cylinder valve is different from an inert gas valve.....Just braze your flowmeter setup to the acetylene cylinder's valve. Lemme know how that works out for ya there jerky......
Reply:I have found, that trying to reach a spray transfer with a C25 gas, is a good way of melting tips.  Just my experience ......
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingEngloid, I'm not saying one way or the other, but just for my own curiosity, I would like to know the parameters you used when you ran a hobart 135 in a spray transfer.
Reply:Originally Posted by ironkenEngload
Reply:Originally Posted by Go1lumHow am i an idiot. Because i have done spray transfer with c-25
Reply:FIRST for the spatter.  Try to keep your stick out to about 3/8".  The popping on start makes me thing you have slightly too fast of wire speed or too much stick out.For the spray thing.  I have achieved spray with C/25 at 36 volts.  I had no control.  I wouldn't actually use it.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.