Axle welding

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Looking for advice on welding a axle on a independent rear drive car.  The axle needs to be shortened.  I think I have two options. 1 Cut the shaft cut a large chamfer and mig weld it back together.  2 Cut the shaft and put a pipe over it (cromoly or DOM) and plug weld it through 6 bored holes in the pipe.     I have been told that if it is welded it will break beside the weld. Is it possible to retemper the steel to get the strength back. chupp100
Reply:i wouldnt touch that project with a twenty foot electrode
Reply:Don't know what alloy steel would be used for your particular axle, or if it would tend to produce a hard brittle heat affected zone (HAZ) or not.In plain steels with over about 0.3 % carbon, 1030, this becomes a problem that requires preheat and post heat to reduce the cooling rate and prevent hardening.  An alloy steel is more complex in the effect of varius elements on hardenability, although if you know what the steel is, you can find out if this is a problem for welding.Tempering is the process of reheating steel, generallly somewhere between 400 and 1000 F, after it has been hardened, in order to soften it slightly, reduce the brittleness, and increase toughness.  Depending on the carbon and alloy content, steel is hardened by heating around 1500 to 1600 F, followed by quenching.  This also happens in the HAZ of a weld that is quenched by the surrounding base metal.  So, depending on your alloy, tempering may be neccessary.The plug welded sleeve method sounds interesting, I assume you got this idea from someone who has successfully done it?Last edited by pulser; 01-30-2007 at 03:38 PM.
Reply:I'm thinking about turning some cold roll down to make a sleeve around .200 wall and with a slight press fit bore 6 holes in it while on the axle to get good penetration. I only have a hobart 135 and a old Marquet 185 stick.  I have access to a good 185 mig which would probably be the best bet.  I have no way of checking the temp. of the metal.   Would preheating, welding and keeping it redhot afterwards keep it from being brittle. The attached link is where the idea came from.  www.v8miata.homestead.com/buildup.html
Reply:Axles are usually made of heat treated steel and welding on them is not a good idea.  If you will notice it is not done in manufacturing and that should tell you something.  If they could do it and produce a product at lower cost and retain the necessary strength they would do it.  Now having said that you will probably see ten examples of this being done.....  I think it is a bad idea.  Welding on an axle housing I have no problem with.Thermal Arc 185 TigHTP 200 MigCraftsman O/A1942 Bridgeport Mill12 Ton Hyd PressConsew Walking Foot
Reply:Dont bother.. Its a waste of time and you will just end up taking it apart to replace it after failure #2.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:You will be lucky if you can take it apart to replace after failure #1.  When an axle fails on a c-clip/semi-floating type rear-end, they generally leave the vehicle with the wheel attached.  It will destroy the car.  Even worse, if the axle fails under hard acceleration, it can cause the car to veer suddenly to the side of the failed axle.
Reply:In the 4x4 industry I know folks shorten the HOUSINGS and every now and then add length, then they have a manufactured axle SHAFT to install.  I have cut and turned my front knuckles on my land cruiser and it was succesfull because of a sleeve type knuckle, and again thats the axle housing, but man I just would not do it on the shafts. weld it like you own it
Reply:Along with the fact that it will likely fail you're very likely to end up with a bent axle. Even with weldable shafts welded in a lathe you can still end up having to straighten the shaft after welding. I don't think you would have much success straightening an axle shaft.
Reply:What everybody else said. It just won't work and if it does work, it won't last. It could be dangerous if the shaft breaks at high speed. I wouldn't even attempt to weld an axle shaft.Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:nada senior***************************************Lincoln AC225 stick welderLincoln HD100 WeldPak flux core wire feed welderThree of the cheapest grinders money can buy
Reply:Originally Posted by lewrayIn the 4x4 industry I know folks shorten the HOUSINGS and every now and then add length, then they have a manufactured axle SHAFT to install.  I have cut and turned my front knuckles on my land cruiser and it was succesfull because of a sleeve type knuckle, and again thats the axle housing, but man I just would not do it on the shafts.
Reply:Don't be so cheap to weld an axle shaft. There are plenty of companies that will make you a custom axle to your specs. Its not worth your cars rear or yours. Play it safe and do it right.Patriot Performance AutoLincoln Power Mig 255CLincoln AC-225 StickVictor Journeyman O/AQuincy QT-5 Compressor
Reply:This “axle” really could be considered a driveshaft. It carries only torsional loads, and is essentially mounted on bearings. I’ll bet it’s not made of the high carbon difficult to work steel of a conventional axle shaft. I think it can be safely modified.I remember a truck driver asking to replace an axle shaft in a Ford truck. I questioned how the truck was moving if the axle shaft was bad.  The driver explained that the axle had been snapped and welded! He described a crude third world blacksmith shop in Mexico where the snapped axle had been electric welded.  It held for 2000 miles, to be replaced at  home. I guess I showed too much interest in the repair, he wouldn’t let me keep the old axle.
Reply:An emergency repair to get home v.s. an optional fix, not a safe comparison.***************************************Lincoln AC225 stick welderLincoln HD100 WeldPak flux core wire feed welderThree of the cheapest grinders money can buy
Reply:Originally Posted by KRSAn emergency repair to get home v.s. an optional fix, not a safe comparison.
Reply:Thanks for all the great info. The gas tank is right above the axles which would be a very bad if one broke. I think I will do a little shopping for axles. Need to do it right the first time, was going to replace it later anyway. Just didn't want to spend the money right now. This thing is eating me up. Again thanks for all the replies.
Reply:Don't even think about it. The axle is an alloy that is heat treated after machining to give it strengh but also flexibility. The must "wrap" a little to take up for the torque put on them.  I've shortened several by cutting and remachining the spline.  This doesn't affect the heat treatment of the material.You don't weld axles or springs for the same reason.  The will crack at the "HAZ"                         Billet Bob
Reply:A punctured gas tank would be the least of your worries if you broke an axle.
Reply:I looked at the link you provided,  I would not hesitate to use the method shown.  This is not a solid axle assembly like you would find in your rear wheel drive Chevy, Ford.  Turning the stub axles, sliding a tight fit tube over and plug welding looks like a safe and appropriate way.  Even if the weld failed nothing will come apart, plus you have hoops around the axles to contain them.  If your welds failed the shaft would just slip inside the tube.  Most rear wheel cars have a welded drive shaft.RegardsMo.
Reply:Hey I wanted to add also I failed to realize this was not a solid axle ....so        it changes my first opinion somewhat.  I would like to see pics.    I'm seeing this leaning more  to an off-road application like a dune buggy.  Some good thoughts on this here. weld it like you own it
Reply:Hmm...  I don't know what to say.  If those aren't tubular axles, they were still heat treated.  The universal joints will compensate for some warping.  If you take a look at a drive shaft, they are plain old low carbon steel with no heat treatment.  But, a drive shaft is also 3x the diameter of an axle and has 1/3 to 1/5 the torque load depending on the differential gear.
Reply:Originally Posted by chupp100Looking for advice on welding a axle on a independent rear drive car.  The axle needs to be shortened.  I think I have two options. 1 Cut the shaft cut a large chamfer and mig weld it back together.  2 Cut the shaft and put a pipe over it (cromoly or DOM) and plug weld it through 6 bored holes in the pipe.     I have been told that if it is welded it will break beside the weld. Is it possible to retemper the steel to get the strength back. chupp100
Reply:http://www.driveshaftshop.comThey make FWD axles good for 1000 hp, they can set you up.Johnny
Reply:I have welded a couple for far machinery.  We turn a taper and a piolet on one end and a taper and bore the other end.  This keeps it straight.  Welded it with 7018, threw it in the wood stove and after it was all dull cherry red, quenched it in oil.  They never broke. One was a Hough loader and one was an AC tractor. My dad welded the main leaf on my 53 willys truck.  It never broke.  Replacement items were not available.  You would be surprised what a farmer will bring.These are not high speed items, but shows it can be done.DavidA great deal of 4x4 Axles are made from either 4340 or 300m. I'm pretty sure welding an axle would be bad. Like was explained before, When it breaks again chances are you will not be sitting still. At least not yet. Loose wheels and axles at any speed will do great damage to whatever they hit. Just buy new axles. Or find used ones.
Reply:whoa whoa, you guys got me going crazy...this guy here did it didn´t he?  http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread...ighlight=panozSeems you agreed, and he knows what he is doing....Sure he didn´t do it with a 125 MIG but...Anybody?My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:Hi I don’t really have a general interest in trucks or cars but I do work with axles a little. From the start of the thread you were asking about fusion welding an axle application. I see a few people have said that it is a bad idea and the use of fusion welding will develop nasty HAZ’s, (while they are not totally correct as many heavy duty axle manufactures all over the world including some of the very best still use rudimentary fusion bonding techniques) I will still have to agree with them. Depending on the loading of the axle and its intended use I would recommend that both of the methods you are suggesting not be used, the reason being not that your welding will not sustain the loading and fatigue stresses but in most cases the parent material itself will not tolerate both the geometric changes or possibly the metallurgic modifications to the grain structure in and around the HAZ. Axles are tested holistically and if one element of the assembly is changed this may affect the whole. For example if the welding parameters were changed in one end of the assembly this could lead to a hardening of that area, the resultant effect will mean that area will not flex as much under load and therefore transmit significant loads to other areas of the axle that cannot sustain these forces and fracture under strain or fatigue.Secondly, the machines that are used to manufacture these components are working to finished axle tolerances, normally at the bearing faces 0.1mm/100mm max after welding, the chances of getting both components axial centre to this before welding will be slim and after welding where heat distortion multiplied by its distance from the bearing face as a result of non uniform heat dissipation through the cross sectional area of the axle will render the probability slimmer to say the least. If you are going to weld it I suggest you find out the chemical composition of the material your axle is manufactured from, get some of the material and a few hours on a friction welding machine, calculate and develop the correct parameters for welding, and turn and burn it together. Its still a bad idea to modify an axle as it is deemed a safety critical component but this will reduce the fatigue fracture problems as friction welding is a solid state process, the other benefits are heat is added uniformly across the weld area (to an extent) so the chances of successfully welding axial centres in line are higher and fracture propagation from non uniform grain structure during flexing also reduces.