Starting a Wedling Biz-Need Advice/Info

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I'm starting my own welding business, first a little info about me, I've been welding for 17 years, started in a vocational highschool, then I went on to specialize in production work, always in a fab shop setting, specializing in Mig & Tig, precision sheetmetal work, tank building...I can stick but I'm a little rusty, I got out of the fab shops about 10 years ago, a good job came along in another field that was too good to pass up for my family (great pay & benefits) I still work for said company but I'm wanting to start my own welding/fab shop and be my own boss, it's starting off part time out of my own garage until (hopefully) I get enough business to go fulltime and take an early retirement at my current job. I have a ESAB Migmaster 250 and a Miller Syncrowave 200 to start off with machine wise, of course I have a cutting torch and all the grinders and hand tools etc I need, I'm planning to add a machine to the back of my truck if I get enough interest in on-site work.   That being said what I dont know and need help with is the business side of things, I've never had to price out a job, again all my experience was working for someone, as a "cog in the wheel" if you will, now I've got an offer to do some work for a gentleman, and I'm not sure how to price it, I know obviously I have to figure out and call for pricing on the required steel for the job, but how do I account for gas, mig wire, grinding wheels etc? Break each item down to exact unit cost? Say grinding wheels, I buy in 25 pc boxes, divide the box price by 25 and go with that? What about gas and wire? I know my labor cost I have to figure in too, any ideas what I should shoot for there? How does one find out what going rate is in my area? I'm in southern NH Thanks for any help you guys can offer.  Ryan
Reply:Since you are new,  you need to be aware, that you will not be able to give the man the most work for the money, so I would set a price lower than what is locally the going rate.I would start with about 15 percent lower.  All you do is pick up the phone put a rag over the reciever and say in a raspy deep voice: "Hey got this thing that is broke... Watcha charge me per hour to fix it?"  Seriously just call and ask quickly and politely what is their hourly labor rate for repair and/or fabrication. Its just that easy. Do  a comparison of several shops, including the high end and the single light bulb hanging down on a wire low end shops as well.However,  many places around  here provide the basic consumables in their hourly rate such as gas and wire.   But if you have been doing welding for several years, you know approximately how much gas and consumables you will use and how long it takes to complete a weld. To be fair to the customer,  I would do a quote for the job, figuring a lower hourly rate for your base and then figure a percentage additional back to it to include in your consumables.  But in my quote,  I wouldn't break down the price of the metal and labor, but give him a rounded out quote to "DO the job".  Don't discuss the labor charges unless you are confident about how long it will take.  You may not make as much on your first few jobs, especially if you run into unexpected situations, but as long as a customer "knows" what he will be paying,  he won't stand there watching your every move or keeping tabs on your time making all the more uneasy if you make a slight miscut or rookie mistake.  And if it takes you longer, you still know what you will take home.As far as actually figuring consumables,  I think you would do well to figure that into the quote going on actual cost of the individual items you consume.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Pricing is gonna be a learning experience for you. After a while you will get to where you can estimate your time fairly closely. I would generally have the customer purchase the material themselves. If I had to handle it I marked it up 100%. Handling it takes time and time is money. Consumables are covered in your hourly rate unless they are unusual expenses such as stainless, cast iron or aluminum electrodes. I would just call a few of the local shops and see what they are charging and what their minimum is. I had a one hour minimum in the shop and 4 hours if I had to roll a rig. Take into account that you may not be as fast as you used to if you have been out of it for a while. I quit for 10 years and couldn't believe how slow I was when I first went back to it. Good luck and I hope it goes well for you.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:When I quote projects I usually figure everything with an extra percentage added to the material cost, then I offer a discount of that actual percentage if they will pay the material costs up front.  They always go for the lower price and give me a deposit that covers my materials and a mark-up so I don't have to finance the materials until they pay the invoice.  It has worked well for me to do it that way!  Most of my customers are by referral, so I have good idea they won't be deadbeats.
Reply:Thanks, much appreciated!Ryan
Reply:Ryan,There's a good book I picked up when I started my own business.  I recommend you find a copy and read through it as it explains just what you're asking(in general terms), and a whole bunch of other important stuff you'll need to consider if you're starting your own business.The book is:  "Smart Business for Contractors" A guide to Money and the Law by James M. Kramon.It's written in plain English, and is aimed at the small startup contractor(carpenter, mason, plumber, electrician, welder)  It's none specific as to what trade you're in, but the advice it gives is relevant to all of them.In short, What you should charge depends in part on how much money you want/need to make.  Decide how much money you want to make per year, estimate all your expenses, tools, electricity, gasoline, stamps, etc. it's a long list.  Then figure out how much you'll owe in taxes.  Add your salary, expenses, and taxes together.  Then divide that total by how many hours you expect to bill your customers for.  This is likely to be less than the number of hours you'll work, as you'll spend time on your business that you can't bill a customer for.Here's an example.  I want to bring home $60K per year, or $5K per month.  My business costs me $2K per month in expenses.  The total tax rate(federal, state, and local) is 50%.  (This number isn't too far off the mark, once you start adding it all up).  $60K + $24K = $84K.  Divide by .5 = $164K per year.So, you've decided that you're going to work full time, trying to bill 40 hours  a week (very agressive goal), and work 50 weeks a year.  That's 2000 Billable hours.  To gross $164K a year, you need to bill $82/hour.Now, the question is, how does $82/hour compare to your competition?  If it's the same or lower than the average rate your competition charges, you're in good shape.  If it's higher than your competition, or in the upper half of the range and you have a lot of competitors, you have a problem.  You need to adjust your plan to fit.  So, do you work more hours, maybe try to bill some overtime at 1.5x or 2.x your normal rate?  Do you try to lower your expenses, thereby lowering your costs?  Or do you settle for making less money, to lower the amount of money you need to gross each year?Or do you decide to try another line of work...a different area of the welding industry, or another line of work entirely?The book I recommended has more details, and info on a lot of other topics you need to consider.  Good luck and don't hesitate to come back if you have more specific questions.-DaveBenson's Mobile Welding  (part-time for now)Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:That's a good hard line way to approach the decision to work for yourself.  Reality bites.I get guys coming to buy hay, and all they do is piss and moan over the cost.  They're new to the cattle business, and didn't figure on just what it costs to feed an animal.  They apparently thought that the damn things just walk around and eat grass.Best way I ever heard it put was-  "If ya can't afford to feed 'em, ya can't afford to own 'em""Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:My business is still fledgling, so take this with a grain of salt.For me, the welding is the easy part.  It's the estimating, scheduling, managing many tasks at once and overall stress of being a 'one man show' that is the hard part.  It can really frazzle the nerves.  Sometimes I think of how easy I had it when I worked for somebody else and all I did was weld production parts or repair stuff or do assembly or packaging or maintenance or whatever my various jobs told me to do and I didnt have to do the whole business by myself.   Ah, the good 'ol days.  I do both mobile and shop work.  The 'shop' is in my garage, so no real overhead cost, which is good.  All the equipment in the shop and on the truck and the truck itself, is all paid for, so I'm not working against a big investment debt to overcome each month.  I think this is very important and has enabled my new business to stay afloat, barely, despite the bad economy.  I think alot of businesses fail early cause they take on too much debt at start up and cant crack that nut later on.  Most fabrication jobs I do are a combination of mobile and in-shop.  In-shop to build it and mobile to do the estimate, deliver it and install it.   Some fabrication I do on-site, some of which is putting together sub-assemblies I've already fabricated in the shop (like fence panels or rail sections).  Most repair jobs are one or the other, either the customer brings it to me and I do it in the shop, or I go there and do it on site.  I don't think any welding shop can really be successful without also having full mobile capability, unless you're just doing subcontract parts production.  Even then, you at least need a truck to go get materials and deliver the finished product.  If your shop will be doing anything with gates, fence, or railing, you need a mobile welding rig to finish the job.  I bill both hourly and by the job.  Fabrication I bill by the job.  Repairs I bill either way.  If I have a good idea how long a repair will take me, I bill by the job.  Customers seem to like that better than hourly and I like it cause they don't hang over me while I work.  If I really don't know how long it will take or what problems I might run into, I tell the customer my hourly rate and try to estimate a likely range from short to long of how long I think it might take and assure him I will work as fast and efficiently as I can to get it done.  I explain how I plan to attack it and explain any possible problems I foresee might come up.  This seems to put the customer at ease a bit.  I really don't like working on an open-ended plan like that, but sometimes it's the only way not to screw myself over.   If I'm billing hourly, my mobile rate is almost double my shop rate, to cover my added costs and time of working mobile.  If I'm billing by the job, I add in some extra for mobile.  I try to end up making about the same profit whether shop or mobile.  I dont figure up how much wire or rods or cu ft of gas or number of saw blades or grinding wheels dril bits, etc I'm going to use on a job or how much that will cost.  I treat those things like operating costs, like utilities or insurance.  I just know that I have to re-supply those things when they run out.  I just try to make enough 'profit' from each job I do so that, cumulatively, all the jobs I do cover those operating costs.  I don't know if that's really a good way to do it or not, but it seems easier to me so that's what I do.My mobile rate is higher cause I'm figuring in truck insurance, maint, gas, etc.  That way I dont have to figure how many miles I spent to do each job and calculate the mpg and add that to the customer's bill or figure out how much time I spent travelling there.   I just know that I have to make enough extra profit on mobile jobs to keep the truck going and make it worth it to spend time traveling to the locations.  When gas prices went sky high there for awhile, I turned down mobile jobs that were too far away, or quoted the job alot higher than I would have if it was nearby.   I almost ditched the whole mobile service idea altogether.   Customers just didn't seem to be willing to pay the extra cost of operating mobile when gas was almost $5 a gallon, but they didn't seem to mind driving here to have me work on something for them.  Kinda interesting. For on-site work, I usually do free estimates, if I don't have to travel a long distance in traffic to get there  or if I can schedule the appointment for a time that I'm already in the area on another job, or if I'm just hungry for work.   Otherwise, I charge $20 or whatever seems fair for the trip.   I have been pretty lenient on that though.  Probly something I should work on.  If the customer brings something to me to look at, the estimate is always free.  If it's a small job, like a repair, I give the customer a price right then.   On repairs,  I can usually do them on the spot if the customer brings it to me, if it doesn't require going to the metal yard.  I do keep alot of scrap around to pick from.   If it's a mobile repair and doesn't require a process I dont carry on the truck (like aluminum or stainless or anything with tig), I can usually do it then and there.   If the customer calls and says it's aluminum or stainless or I think it might need tig, I ask the customer to bring the project to me, since I don't have those process capabilities on the truck yet.   I have stick and mig for steel only on the truck.  If the customer cant bring it in and I can't do it on-site, I have to turn down the job.  I usually refer the cutomer to other welders I know who carry those processes on their trucks.  If the customer calls or emails and just wants to price shop his project or repair, I tell him my shop or mobile labor rate per hour and explain that materials are seperate from labor.   On a repair, I have to see it in person before I give a flat job quote.   Customers always make everything sound like it's a piece of cake on the phone, then when you get into it and it turns into a nightmare, you're screwed if you already told him you'd do it for $xxx flat.On fabrication jobs, I collect all the pertinate info (measurements, customer's design ideas, material type/size, etc) during the estmating trip then call the customer back later with the price, after I have made up a materials list and called the metal supplier for pricing and spent some time figuring up my labor charge.  Sometimes I do two seperate labor estimates, one for the fabrication and one for the installation, if the customer is thinking of installing it theirself.  It's also easier for me mentally to break it down into two seperate operations, shop and truck.  I try to do fabrication estimates over the phone as much as possible, if installation is not going to be involved, or if the install appears to be very straighforward and doesn't involve on-site fabrication, and more so if the job is far away, cause I know I'm not going to do any work or make any money when I go on site for the first time just to make an estimate.  I ask customers to take digital pics and email them to me or email a sketch with dimensions of what they want and I try to ask alot of pertinate questions and take notes.   Sometimes they like that, other times they just want me to come out and meet with them personally.   In that case, if I don't go out there, I probly won't end up getting the job, so if I'm hungry, I go.  If I'm too busy already, I dont worry about losing the work.Some customers have their project planned well ahead and just email me all the info right up front.  These are usually companies that want quotes from multiple welders, so the manager prepares something and emails the same info to all the welders they're considering for the job.  If they like my initial quote, they'll  call and ask me to come down to meet with them.  If they didn't like my quote, I usually never hear back from them, though once in a while I get a thank you email stating they are considering the info and will get back to me if they decide on using my service.For fabrication jobs, I collect the money from the customer for materials at the time the customer agrees to do the job.  Then I go buy the materials, make the item to agreed upon specs, paint and install it (if that is part of the job), then collect the money for the labor when I'm done.   If it's alot of money involved in buying the materials, I wait untill the customer's check has cleared my bank before buying anything.  If it's a smaller amount of money, I just deposit the check and buy the materials in one trip, provided I have sufficient balance in my account to do so without his check clearing.   Collecting the materials money first shows me the customer is serious about doing the job and I don't end up building something and having the customer come up with some excuse as to why he doesn't want it when it's done, or building something and never hearing back from the customer at all.  Plus, my money doesn't get tied up in the project, just my time.   In the materials charge, I include some extra for ordering and picking up the materials, since it takes time and gas to do that.  If the customer comes with their own materials, or offers to go buy the materials himself, all the better.  One less thing for me to deal with, if they buy the right thing.In addition to custom built fabrication and repair work, I sometimes make completed items of my own design, with no actual customer in mind, to advertise for sale, when I have time to do that.   I make hitch mounted motorcycle carriers and cargo carriers and decorative items.  Stuff that doesn't cost me alot to make and is generic enough that anybody can buy it and use it.  There is a small amount of risk, cause sometimes no one wants to buy anything and my money is sitting there in pieces of metal instead of in the bank or out paying bills.  Sometimes, I may not sell what I made, but I may get a custom fab job out of it for something else instead.  Customers seem to like it when they can see something I've made, even if they don't want that particular thing.  I guess it gives them confidence that I can build the thing they actually want.Anyways, enough of my rambling.   Hope that might help you a bit.  Good luck with the new endevour!MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I carried a class "c" contractors license in the mid 80's.  Mostly did remodels, and flatwork.Have you found that the estimates can sometimes be a pain in the azz?  Lot of times it's somebody trying to pick your brain on how the job should be done.  I don't know if that applies to welding, but it was pretty common on residential remodel."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersamm ...They're new to the cattle business, and didn't figure on just what it costs to feed an animal.  They apparently thought that the damn things just walk around and eat grass.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI carried a class "c" contractors license in the mid 80's.  Mostly did remodels, and flatwork.Have you found that the estimates can sometimes be a pain in the azz?  Lot of times it's somebody trying to pick your brain on how the job should be done.  I don't know if that applies to welding, but it was pretty common on residential remodel.
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Yes, estimates are definately a pain.  They consume alot of time and sometimes it's all for nothing.As far as customers using me to figure out how to build something, I'm not sure I've come accross that.  If I go to their home, I usually see their garage and don't normally see alot of tools or metal working equipment.  If I saw a garage full of welders and saws, I might think something strange is up.
Reply:Its the same with welding Samm, just go to Lowe's and buy a welder and some consumables and "presto" your a weldor.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI carried a class "c" contractors license in the mid 80's.  Mostly did remodels, and flatwork.Have you found that the estimates can sometimes be a pain in the azz?  Lot of times it's somebody trying to pick your brain on how the job should be done.  I don't know if that applies to welding, but it was pretty common on residential remodel.
Reply:I always laugh when the customer calls, says they've got a real easy job for me, should take 5 min... (yeah ok.. lemme see it first)....then...  customer would do it himself... if he had a welder and knew how to weld....   DUH!   If I had a scalpal and knew how to operate... I'd be doing surgery too!  LMAO   Last edited by DesertRider33; 01-13-2009 at 09:30 PM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33I always laugh when the customer calls, says they've got a real easy job for me, should take 5 min... (yeah ok.. lemme see it first)....then...  customer would do it himself... if he had a welder and knew how to weld....   DUH!   If I had a scalpal and knew how to operate... I'd be doing surgery too!  LMAO
Reply:"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by lars66The come back line I started using years ago on people wanting an over the phone price quote is this.  This is like running your car into a tree and calling a body shop for a price to fix it. There is always a long long pause on the other end or a hangup.
Reply:When faced with a similar problem, my father used a similar wise remark. His boss would ask just how long a certain project would take, something they weren't looking at at the time, he would say, "If you can tell me exactly how much change is in my pocket, I will tell you exactly how long it will take!" The boss, of course, said "Well I can't see in your pocket, so I can only guess."    "So there's your answer." my dad would say.I use a similar approach when people ask me for phone quotes. Sometimes people get offended, if they are that tight azzed, they wouldn;t be any fun to do work for. It's usually just the small stuff, people with REAL work either get it, or wouldn't ask the question in the first placeJust my  opinion, not from a book, just from the road.Howes Welding Inc.www.howesweldinginc.com
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Hey I like that one!  Mind if I use it?
Reply:I do a lot of Bobcat work for people, I  always thought it would be a great business cause nobody wants to dig in the dirt and break their back. I have never been one to give inflated prices to gouge people or to go back and forth about price. I just come up with a fair price and it's take it or leave it. Now I keep a brand new shovel behind the seat of the truck, When they ask me  " Can we do it any cheaper?"I say wait right here, I break out the shovel and tell them 15 bucks and they can dig all they want and keep the shovel too, best I can offer!you should see the look I get."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Ryan, I have been welding all my life. And to be honest over the years we have come up with prices per foot, on just about anything you could think of that can be priced that way.Even welding. We did not just dream up the price. We went high on some people low on others. Until we honed in on a real price that we could take or leave. And always be happy with getting. Just a quick tip, the guy that says that he will be there to help you and even has some fresh welding rod for you is not the guy you want to work for. The customer that honestly says I want a nice job, I want it done by such and such, a date, will be your best customer. And will pay a more then fair wage. The other guy with the open, rusted can of 6011 rods out back, wants you to pay him for letting you use his rods. There are exceptions to the rule, but be careful. A price per inch for welding is not a bad idea. Even if only as in indicator or something to say to the customer. Around here we get from 5-7 dollars an inch for TIG. And probably a little less for MIG. But today some people want MIG, and to be honest it is harder for me on a small job, to get the MIG ready to go with the giant spool to change. Or to get out the Miller generator and the spool gun ready. So that price would probably work for most types of welding. If there is some special cleaning to do, or sandblasting or peening, that you cannot do. That is easy you just call up and get a price on a single or small part. Often they get a premium to do small parts. Remember you will be transporting the part around. That is time consuming, frustrating, it can lead to two trips because someone thought your part was done. If there is painting or powder coating involved and there will be, you are better off finding a descent powder coat guy and sending the customer there. Otherwise you are putting some rusty or greasy thing in your car or truck, to take to the powder coat guy to find he is on vacation or left early. Or you are calling him to make sure he is there and will be shooting the color you want by the time the customer wants it. It can be a pain. I know.After you send about fifty people his way, and meet him a few times you can make a deal with him and setup systems to exchange parts, and you can learn each others schedules. To avoid missing each other or having parts sit around for a week waiting for a custom color shoot. You learn which colors require a weeks notice. Or if a special sandblasting or zincing is needed before powder coating. What finish he needs or what finish he will charge you for to make it ready to powder coat. Then there is the finished powder coated part. It is beautiful in the powder coat showroom, but after it slides around your car or truck it is pretty well ruined. The best reason to stay away from being a middle man. If your powder coat guy is good he will wrap the part in cardboard, or saran wrap. It does not always work. Ha-ha. You need furniture pads. And ropes in many cases. Just another pain and time. Gas on small jobs is not really going to amount to anything. However after a month of small jobs your tank is empty. I know guys that charge a fortune for a small job, and do really nice work. They stay in business but have that reputation that no one really wants. Then you have the guys that charge almost nothing and wait for the big jobs. The big jobs do come from the small jobs no matter what. So I say give away the small tacks and quick fixes that often, you do not even know, if the base metal will be strong enough to support the weld. Lawn mower muffles and things like that. If you can fix it in five minutes. Make a new friend I say leave it up to the customer. Tell him just give me something for the gas and supplies. Some guys will take out a roll of hundreds and leave two dollars and change. I have come to understand this behavior. Sometimes these same fellows come back with the best big jobs. Sometimes they will start to bring coffee or beer, and more jobs and new customers. They often make sure the new customer gives you something or pays you right. Because they want to protect you. If you have a little job that takes five minutes to prep and two minutes to weld. I say you can leave it up to the customer, or charge something like twenty-twenty five bucks. Anything larger and you have to make up a price first. You would not believe what some individuals think you are going to charge them. Some think ten dollars is too much. If you get a job for five pieces. Just figure the price of one part out. Exactly how long it will take and then add in a few more minutes or an hour to be sure. Just set the hourly wage you wish to make. I would not worry about what others say you have to make or what the going rate is. You have to be happy with the hourly rate. If you charge way to much, I know the customer will forgive you when you tell him it took you less time then you thought, and you hand him back a fifty or a twenty. You are going to make mistakes. You are going to need cutoff wheels to un-weld the parts you mess up. A power hacksaw is nice, very nice. Blades cost money. You have to figure some kind of consumable per hour rate as well as your salary. I hope that gives you an idea of the hell, you are, for some reason about to subject yourself too. Ha-ha. I love it.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:When you are new to any business, you go through what I call the "whore" phase, you will do ANYTHING for money.  After a few years at it, you moderate, after a few more, you get a bit "picky" This situation just came up a day after my last post. A few years ago I did a small bit of work, mostly repairs, for a local business owner. They were always small profit jobs, limited amount of material, time based on an hourly rate.One time, he brings in his snow plow, with top snow foil, that he had used to move a loaded trash dumpster, to say that that was labor intensive would be an understatement. Sometimes, he would bring in some project or custom item that took too long, but I really couldn't charge him what time I had in it. I was always trying to be fair and hoping for the "big one".A couple of years ago, he did a MAJOR revamping of his business, structural changes, railings, thousands of dollars work of misc. metal / welding work. I did NOT get a call to even quote the work. He walks in the door with what looks like a less than $20.00 fix. I lay it out for him, years of nickle- dime type repairs, then when the big one comes along, I don't even get a call. His response was that he hired a contractor, the contractor hired ALL the subs. Yes, that's true, but it was HIS money, I had done quality work for him for years, and all he had to do was ask the GC to ALLOW me to quote on the work. I told him I was not going to fix his problem. I was polite, but I'm sure my point was expressed. Oh well, there goes that $20. I might have been more whore-like 15 or more years ago.Just my  opinion, not from a book, just from the road.Howes Welding Inc.www.howesweldinginc.com
Reply:My favorite line was, " I would have done it myself, if I had the rod! " When I would hand them a couple, it was, " Well, since I'm here....." ---------------John
Reply:Originally Posted by tessdadWhen you are new to any business, you go through what I call the "whore" phase, you will do ANYTHING for money.  After a few years at it, you moderate, after a few more, you get a bit "picky" This situation just came up a day after my last post. A few years ago I did a small bit of work, mostly repairs, for a local business owner. They were always small profit jobs, limited amount of material, time based on an hourly rate.One time, he brings in his snow plow, with top snow foil, that he had used to move a loaded trash dumpster, to say that that was labor intensive would be an understatement. Sometimes, he would bring in some project or custom item that took too long, but I really couldn't charge him what time I had in it. I was always trying to be fair and hoping for the "big one".A couple of years ago, he did a MAJOR revamping of his business, structural changes, railings, thousands of dollars work of misc. metal / welding work. I did NOT get a call to even quote the work. He walks in the door with what looks like a less than $20.00 fix. I lay it out for him, years of nickle- dime type repairs, then when the big one comes along, I don't even get a call. His response was that he hired a contractor, the contractor hired ALL the subs. Yes, that's true, but it was HIS money, I had done quality work for him for years, and all he had to do was ask the GC to ALLOW me to quote on the work. I told him I was not going to fix his problem. I was polite, but I'm sure my point was expressed. Oh well, there goes that $20. I might have been more whore-like 15 or more years ago.