newbie intro question MIG pass then Stick

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Hi to you all  new and first post.I'm an amateur home autodidactic and glad to have found this site. Much to learn and more questions than wisdom.Stick welding was an art which i only mastered a bit recently. First attempts date back from my childhood but much more than making a hedgehog lookalike i did not accomplish.Later came MIG welding which was much easier to master.I was nevertheless raised by the misconception that MIG welds are weak compared to stick welding an therefore still feel that stick welding is the 'better' way.For ease of working I developed the habbit of tackwelding and root-passing my welds with the MIG and then finish them with a stick pass / 2 passes. I also have this feeling that the stick is more happy melting the MIG weld and flowing easier. (hard to describe) compared to a stick to stick overpass.What do you think about this? More in detail:1st MIG: 120A, CO2, 0,8mm wire equivalent 60132nd Stick: 120A DC 6013 2,5mm3rd Stick: 120A DC 6013 3,2mm or 7018 3,2mmAnother benefit i found is that the MIG pass avoids warping better and allows for continuesly putting the stick welds.I do have to mention that i do have a lot of problems with the 7018 electrodes. I mainly use the 6013 with much better results, although strength not 'analyzed' but not failing.I have an AC welder on the way and will try the 7018 with that one to see if i get to any better results.Another remark and question is that i evolved with the MIG from standard setting of wire-feed and current to a setting of almost max current (120A is position 5 of 6) and wire feed around 2 m/min. (The chart indicates a wirefeed of 4,8m/min.)I do get an consistent minimal undercut without causing burn-through on everything from 2mm thickness on. The welds flow better, look better and i feel i have nice control.No pictures at the moment, maybe i can take some of some welds if that would be helpfull.Appreciate your thoughts
Reply:All processes are strong when applied properly.  It sounds like you are not using the mig like it should be, or you don't have enough power going to it.  Is your mig 110 volt?David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Hi David R,The Mig is 220 single phaseit is the entry model of a local brand. Most commonly used here as the big european brands are a big bucks and no parts available story.
Reply:That machine should have enough kahunas to do the job.  Learn to use it.  Mig can be as strong as stick if applied properly.  It can look as good or better.  Just make sure you are burning in with a nice fluid puddle.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:David,I wouldn't think there would be any 110V machines in Europe would there?  I wonder what a small machine is over there?Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I do agree with your point of MIG being equally to Stick.I did the whole Tatra 805 reconstruction using MIG going from sheetmetal to winchtray / recovery hook frame welding and nothing failed ever.Its just the thing that i cannot be considered a man in the family if i cannot master the stick. So i keep trying to improve my skills.The autocomp is nice but not that powerfull, with a 150A max current (at 30% dutycycle) i really see the difference compared to a 350A ESAB i was working with before while never going over 170A (that were the recovery point hooks)The original question is mainly about overpassing a MIG weld with a stick, does it create risks strenghtwise or... or...
Reply:My belief is, for your situation, that a single pass with SMAW should be sufficient.Stick can build a tremendous amount of heat and penetration if you slow down a bit.  It may be that you have become accustomed to fast travel.  I made that mistake a lot when I first figured out how to weld.  I wasn't allowing the heat to build in the base metal, and because of it, didn't get adequate penetration.Just for S & G's, try to run some welds slow enough to the point of burnthrough, then gradually change to a faster travel, and possibly different rod manipulation.I might be wrong, but I feel it's better to be on the edge of burnthrough, than running a "cold" weld.  HEAT IS GOOOOOOOD"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I agree, mostly, with all you guys that wire welding is as good as stick if done properly.I think the danger is to the guy just learning.  It's easier to make a really nice looking weld with a wire machine.  Much easier to learn to do it.Where the problem comes is PENETRATION.  I think it takes a lot of experience to set your machine properly to obtain the proper penetration.  After all , wire welding is a semi automatic process.  Machine parameters control a lot of what's goin' on in the weld.  Whereas a stick process, while somewhat sensitive to amp settings is more forgiving because the weldor(OK, I see the reason for the spelling) can make wide adjustments with how he/she handles the electrode."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Tatra805:These other guys know more about you question than me. But, welcome to the site.  Thank you for adding your location: Slovak Republic, Europe, pretty cool. Maybe that's why they call it The World Wide Web. What's your native language? How many do you speak? I only know English. It's 6 pm here in middle America and 9*F brrrrrr (cold).  I'm 61, how old are you?Ok, back to welding. Originally Posted by farmersammWhereas a stick process, while somewhat sensitive to amp settings is more forgiving because the weldor (OK, I see the reason for the spelling) can make wide adjustments with how he/she handles the electrode.
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in DenverTatra805:These other guys know more about you question than me. But, welcome to the site.  Thank you for adding your location: Slovak Republic, Europe, pretty cool. Maybe that's why they call it The World Wide Web. What's your native language? How many do you speak? I only know English. It's 6 pm here in middle America and 9*F brrrrrr (cold).  I'm 61, how old are you?Ok, back to welding.
Reply:Depend on the arc voltage of your machine many AC welders won't burn 7018 worth a dang. Try 7018AC. Most MIG wire in this country compares in strength to 70xx electrodes.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:Craig, in Denver,Thanks for the welcome. I am a Belgian who moved to Slovakia 4 years ago. It is a kind of West Coast - East Coast thing with the biggest difference being the political background here in Eastern Europe. So my native language is Flemish, a Dutch variant spoken in Belgium. Besides that French, English a bit of spoken German and now a very little Slovak.You posted your message at 3AM local time. Oh, I'm 31, suppose you can call me 'son'...As far as welding background i started around 6 playing around under my fathers supervision mainly trying to weld concrete anchor points made from scrap iron for gate posts he was making. (try to weld, when ready hit it with a hammer, if it falls of start again till it sticks)Both my grandfather and father were project managers in metal constructions  (industrial constructions and piping(gas-oil)) where my grandfather was the A/O master considering stick welding inferiour and my father the stick welding addept considering MIG inferiour... (so you see the line)Farmersamm: I do agree with the deceiving optics of MIG when learning. Therefore i came to the setting i am using now, It really runs more hot with less wirefeed,Visual it is as keeping an arc so the base material melts while a small ball of melted wire forms at the end of the wire and then jumps in the pool of melted base material, really slowly so you see everything happen.It is something different than putting a worm on top and hoping the bottom was melting.At the moment i am making a dumping trailer. About 60% of the welds are MIG only. 39%, the structural welds are electrode only. On some special ones I used the tecnique described in my first posts.EG, i had to shorten the axle. 2" rodCut, angled (bevelled?) then alligned, Tack welded with MIG. First pass MIG, filling about half of the 'valley',  then a central single pass 6013 which filled the V for 80% and  then 2 passes next to each other of 7018. connecting the rod with the  other pass of 7018.Then a 2.5" tube of 40cm (wall 5mm) was slid over the weld and the edges of this tube welded to the rod using MIG-6013-7018.PIC1: The rod connection with the 2 top passes visiblePIC2: tube to rod MIG (had to fill quite a bit there)PIC3: Finish weld 7018PIC4: completeLast edited by tatra805; 01-27-2009 at 06:40 AM.
Reply:A blob at a time is not short circuit welding.  Its globular transfer sort of, but not with enough heat to make it real.   Please give it a shot with real short circuit, that is using the recommended settings and see how it goes.  You are getting no penetration with that type of transfer.  You need the wire speed (amps) to get the wire INTO the base plate.Try it and show a pic.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I would do the root pass with 6011 or 6010, then fill/cap with 7018, or do the whole thing with tig, or tig the root and use 7018 to fill/cap.The problem with mig is every start/re-start is cold.   If you're going around the small dia pipe doing several re-starts with mig, you've got alot of cold spots in the weld with poor penetration/fusion.   That is why I prefer to weld pipe stick or tig.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:David R, As requested some pictures.I have no clue about how real testing should be performed. I welded trying to get the best result with both settings of on the MIG. MIG MY means my setting:120A - 2,2 m/min wirefeed, 0,8mm wire, CO2STD standard as prescribed on the machine:120A - 4,8m/min wirefeed, 0.8mm wire, CO2Electrodes wereC EP6013: HILCO extra Red. 3,2mm 120A7018: ESAB 3,2mm 120A1st: 6013 stick vs MIG STD2nd: 7018 + MIG MY3rd: MY - STD  Horizontal4th: MY - STD Vertical UP5th: STD - MY Vertical down 6th: Top view  heat coloration of pict 1-2-3 whereby the biggest heat was developed by setting MY (left side)7th: MIG  120A, wirefeed 1,5 - 2,2 - 3,5 - 4,8 note on coloration alsoLet the comments flow. Ready to learn.EDIT: some more macro pics coming. hold on.Last edited by tatra805; 01-28-2009 at 02:53 PM.
Reply:8th: MIG MY9th: MIG STDand just to show:6013: slight undercut visible7018: comes above the orig material (black piece above weld is edge of slack still there)I love this Superzoom thing of Canon. But I also like Nikon better.
Reply:Have you tried to break the welds to see how they penatrated  the steel?Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Here we go...I cut the 3 squares in half and then using different tools tried to break the weld. Gave up once the material curled back completely. Had no more tools that could hold the forces. (including diff clamps, a 20'' pipe wrench, etc etc)All pieces separated but with the strong welds it was the base material cracking instead of teh weld releasing. (so i had a crack outside weld area)1st: the 6013-MIG STD2nd: MIG MY - 70183rd: MIG STD4th: MIG STD close up5th: MIG MY6th: MIG MYis this enough or should i add some anger , err , more hammering  in the bending process??