Need to make a 3 point hitch fork lift setup

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Hello all!I have a customer that wants me to fab him a 3 point fork lift setup!It will be Cat-1 and used on the back of a Ferguson T020 tractor, he wants it to be able to lift about 5-600lbs, but as usual, figure that the user will try using it to lift a car or something else too heavy!I want to make it at least handle around 1200lbs, to be on the safe side of 600lbs.So I figured I would use at least a 3"x3"x1/4" tube for the frame, made into a square at 26" wide x 26"with at least 1 cross member across the middle at 2/3rds of the way up at the point at which the top link will connect.But I don't know what to use for the actual forks that would hold up to 1200lbs, he wants the forks to be at least 30" long, and I figured on placing them at about 20" apart at their outside edge, to be able to fit a standard size pallet!Do you think that something like 3/4"x3" flat mild steel would work for the forks, or should I go even heavier?The cost needs to be kept down or I would do this with a higher tensile steel.Thanks for your thoughts!Ken.#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:You really should look for a set of used forks. 30" forks should be fairly easy to find used and cheap. Trying to make forks will give you nothing but headaches.Tim Beeker.
Reply:Originally Posted by tnjindYou really should look for a set of used forks. 30" forks should be fairly easy to find used and cheap. Trying to make forks will give you nothing but headaches.
Reply:Unfortunately, around here, fork lift parts go for a premium!The last set of forks I found, the guy was wanting $250.00 for just the forks, and they where bent pretty bad.I did a little design change since posting, instead of a cross bar, I decided on another upright, to lend in the twisting forces that a load on the forks would make.Here's a crude drawing of what I have in mind! Attached Images#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Hey Ken,   I built this set last year and they worked well.  http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=20534   They are limited by the 3 point lift height and the weight of the front end of the tractor.  I agree with the other guys about finding a set of old forks, I picked mine up at a local scrap yard for $75.00 a couple of years ago before prices went up. I don't really know enough about metallurgy to offer an educated opinion on fabricating the forks themselves.  I bought a skid loader and plan on converting my forks over to a quick attach setup.
Reply:Hey KenPersonally, I wouldn't really want to attempt to make a forklift without using forged(I guess) forks.3/4 plate has very little strength when laying flat.If you're hell bent on doing it, maybe use some channel with the open end boxed in, and maybe an additional piece of flat welded to the stress side of the beam to reinforce it.By the time you add up the channel, and flat for bottom flange and reinforceing the top flange, it can get pretty pricey.  And it's still not exceptionally strong.  Maybe for LIGHT stuff.  But who sticks to load limits???  Plus rough ground, and bouncing, multiplies the down force on the forks.I don't think I'd use old pallet jack forks either.  Pallet jacks have a front set of wheels under the forks that take a great deal of the load.  I don't think the full load is on the heel of the fork.  It's funny, I used to use them a great deal, but I never looked underneath to see how the front rollers actually took the load.Pawelder had some difficulty with his forks.  Or maybe where the heel attached to the uprights.  I don't remember."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Thanks Glwelder!I seen yours before, nice work!Thanks for the input SammWhen I talked with the guy the first time this morning, we discussed the limits that mild steel would have, and I suggested then that if we could find a set of forks, I could make the mount and add a hanger across it for them, so I do still have that option.He insists on having this made, so one way or the other, I am going to make it for him, but I am thinking of having him sign a waiver relieving me of any liability for anything that may happen with the use of it!#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Ken,Buy the forks and make the mount.Plain mild steel has a yield point (the amount of stress on the steel before it "yields" or permanently bends) of about 26 ksi.Most forklift forks are made of a forged and heat treated medium carbon steel.  The yield point of that type of material would be around 100 ksi.  Typical value for 4140 alloy steel ( a common medium carbon alloy steel, whether forklift forks are actually made of this specific alloy I don't know) 1550F oil-quenched and 1000F temper 2 inch diameter round is 116 ksi.So for the same 'strength' you would have to make a plain mild steel fork about 4 TIMES bigger than the medium carbon heat-treated alloy steel fork.And a waiver might not be worth the paper it's written on.  Talk to a business lawyer.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:My local junk yard had dozens of forks in a pile on a pallet, obviously to sell. But Ken,  what you quoted seems a fair price.  You will have that much in 3/4 inch steel.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I talked to the guy again this morning, and he still wants to go with the mild steel!So I talked him into going to a 1"x4"x30" fork that I will weld directly to the frame.I plan on using the 3x3x1/4" tube for the frame and adding braces behind the bottom rail and to the heal of the forks, cutting a corner section from a piece of the 3x3x1/4 tube to act as the brace like in the kiddie picture that I drew!I figure with this, at worst, he would bend the fork or rip it in the front along the weld point before anything else.I did some searching on fork material and strength, and a 1"x4"x48" fork has a nominal load of 3000lbs, bend tested at 3x its capacity at 9000lbs, with the figures given by Moonrise, the 1x4x30" mild steel should give this a load capacity well above what this gent wants to use it for at 750lbs load and 2250lbs bend strength, I am more concerned about that bottom 3x3x1/4 tube giving at the front weld/stress point, more than I am the actual forks giving at 5-600lbs.Maybe I can talk him into letting me add another brace like the one on the back, onto the front. Attached Images#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Ken,I guess I question why you even came on the board asking for advice.In spite of overwhelming advice not to use mild steel for those forks, you have made what I feel is the wrong decision. Yea, I know the old proverb, "the customer is always right" however, in this case, I don't think that's the case.  That's when the fabricator/welder has to stand his ground.As mentioned, 600# may not seem like a lot, however you start adding in the "live loading" experienced when traveling over rough terrain and the whole picture changes.Personally, if the customer insisted on doing it wrong, some other welder would be doing the fabrication.  That's just the way I do business.Heck, Northern Tools has a 3-Pt. hitch with pallet forks for $469.  Also show a 3-Pt Carry All Fork Attachment (36" forks, 500lb load) for $89.I'd bet a google search would turn up a set of used forks for less than the cost of new mild steel + labor.Different strokes for different folks, I guess.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:KenI don't know that you' d gain that much with the gusset at the backside of the forks.  You'd gain more from placing a small gusset at the front side of the fork where it attaches to the mast.A little 3" gusset would add a lot of strength to that point.  I think it's where the most leverage will concentrate should the guy lift something too far out on the forks.Another interesting thing is the concentration of the load.  Let's say that the load is evenly distributed over the entire length of the forks, the leverage is somewhat less than you'd think.  700 lbs wouldn't necessarily mean 700lbs exerting leverage from way out there.  A good portion of the load is close to the heel of the forks.Cantilevers are strange things.  The problem is the load focus at the connection point.  The other problem is the multiplication of force as the load gets farther from the fulcrum.  It's why a 4' cheater bar exerts more force than a wrench with a foot long handle."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I dunno, either way it's asking for trouble.When I built my tree piling thingie I used 3x3x3/16 tubing for the forks.  It was the least amount of material I felt comfortable with using.  Plus it is a piece of field equipment, if it bends/breaks nothing other than my pride and pocketbook gets hurt.  It probably won't hurt anybody or damage a high dollar thing I'd be carrying(cut trees).And I reinforced the daylights out of the connection between the forks and the mast Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Ken,NG.  Plain 1x4 forks 30 inches long attached to 3x3x1/4 tube sort of what you sketched there can NOT support 1000 pounds at the tip of each fork (2000 lbs equally supported by both fork tips for 1000 lbs on each fork tip).Trying to do so puts about 58 ksi right at that front weld you are concerned about.So you say, no problem, I'm using 7018 and that's good for 70 ksi, right?  Nope, that's 70 ksi tensile, but the yield is at 58 ksi minimum (per the AWS class for 7018).So the weld material will stretch and start failing.But all that doesn't even matter because the plain steel of your 'forks' will yield and start pulling apart at 26 ksi or so.  Which means FAILURE.Because if you tell the guy he can lift 2000 pounds with the forks, sooner or later he's going to try to lift (or wiggle or whatever) that "2000 pounds load rating" with the tips of the forks.And that's with the 1x4 piece 30 inches long overall, with 3 inches hanging past the BACK of the 3x3 uprights, giving a real reach in front of the uprights of just 24 inches.With those 30 inch forks (24 inch reach), the mild steel (A36 or 1010 type stuff) fork material starts to yield (FAIL!) at about 1000 pounds at the fork tips with the load fully and equally shared by both forks (500 lbs on each fork tip).  And those fork tips will only have deflected down about  1/4 inch, which you can't really even see or notice and the forks start ripping apart.So It get even worse if the forks have a 'full' 30 inch reach in front of the uprights.And that's all with NO safety factor on the forks!!!!Never mind the welds, the forks themselves start bending and ripping apart!And if the guy tries to lift the load and only did it with one fork tip instead of both lifting the load, the 1x4 mild steel 'fork' 24 inches long from the upright to the fork tip will start ripping apart at a 500 lb load.But you did correctly identify the area where everything starts to rip apart as right at the front fillet where the upright attaches to the fork.  Insist on a full 30 inch reach in front of the upright?  So you have 30 + 3 (tube) + 3 (overhang to rear for gussets) = 36 inch long piece of 1x4 steel weighing 41 lbs for each fork?  Then 400 lbs load on one fork tip is 'iffy' and max with NO safety factor.Etc, etc, etc.Buy the alloy heat-treated forks.If you use 1.5 x 4  mild steel forks, then you are -almost- safe for a 500 lb load at each the fork tip.  But still with an IMHO not sufficient safety factor.Buy the alloy heat-treated forks.Notice a recurring theme here yet?     The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:SundownIIIThis is why I came here: Deep down I know this is a failure waiting to happen, given the nature of a customers inability to adhere to limits given to them by those in the know, I wasn't quite sure of the actual figures for the strength of the steel I would use, all I had was my own experience from past uses, and a feeling that it wouldn't work out as the customer would hope!All here that have contributed to this thread!You have convinced me to stand my ground and tell the customer that it will have to be done as I say, or else!And that will be to find a set of forks, or pay the extra for the right steel to do this with!I still plan on using the original design shape, its just going to have to be beefier or else.I have been making and selling 3 point parts and attachments for the Cat-0 hitches for garden tractors for some time now, this is my first request for anything made for something bigger than a garden tractor, other than a hand full of utility trailers that I have built and sold in the past!This is becoming a learning experience, and I thank all here for contributing to my newly acquired knowledge!If he decides to still have me make this for him, I will post pics in the projects and pics section as I go.Thanks all!Ken.#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Good news!I just ran into a set of 48" 5000lb rated forks for $75.00An old friend of mine owns our local scrap yard here, and just called me to let me know that a truck just came in loaded with scrap from a local factory that closed down and among the load was a nice set of forks from a fork lift!Funny how things seem to work out some times!Ken.#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Good deal Ken.Must be a sign.Tim Beeker.
Reply:TA DAH!!!!!  NOW YOU'RE COOKIN'!!!!!!Now just make sure ya don't drop 'em on your foot"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Right time, right place...RIGHT MONEY!Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:It's funny how doin' the "right thing" usually turns out good. Karma I suppose.
Reply:That's how I got the forks for my tractor bucket loader. Not hard to make either. If you need any help with the design for the fork bracket mounts send me a PM.The bracket I made fits over both side of the lift arms, and has the sliding framework design of the forklift that allows the forks to adjust sideways to fit different width pallets. Its similiar in design to your post #4 here.TomLast edited by specter; 03-12-2009 at 07:41 PM.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:I decided that if this guy doesn't want this done this way, he can have someone else make it for him, and I will still go get those forks, and use them to make one for my old 1941 Ford 9N thats setting down in Brown county Indiana right now at my mother in laws getaway property down there!Just don't ask me why its still there and I am here! specter!PM on its way!Thanks!Ken.#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Hey good break Ken.  I was just at the scrap yard today and there were 6-8 sets of forks.   Still $75.00 in Lansing MI.  Most had the detent pins missing.  I came back to this thread to let you know but looks like your all set.
Reply:Ken,Way to go.Forks are the best bet.  Both from a safety and capability point of view.  The more weight you've got out on the forks themselves, the less lifting capability you have.You may still want to check out Northern Tools 3-Pt. Hitch/Lift (Item# 2501864-2806) just for ideas.Keep us posted.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Thanks SundownIIIBut that fork setup is for a front end loader, it would have much more lifting capacity than a 3 point would!On a Ferguson TO20, it is limited to the tractors ability to lift at the rear without lifting the front end off the ground.A person could add weight to the front of the tractor, and be able to lift more at the rear, but even then, the old To20 hydraulic system wouldn't be able to handle it, as is, at the lifting point of the 3 point, it is limited to about 2000lbs, but I doubt the front would stay on the ground with that much weight, then there's the farther you get away from the back of the tractor, the less it can lift without lifting the front.so, I think I can be safe with the design I have laid out so far, and adding a plate across the middle to hook those forks onto, and notching it for positive stop points for the fork side to side travel.In theory that is!Farmersamm!For the cat-1You couldn't give me the measurements you used on your carryall between the lower lift arms attaching points and also the height between lower and upper lift points, at the level of the lower arms and the rise where the top link connects could you?Thanks!Ken.#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!Hows it going with that design Ken??Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIKen,I guess I question why you even came on the board asking for advice.In spite of overwhelming advice not to use mild steel for those forks, you have made what I feel is the wrong decision. Yea, I know the old proverb, "the customer is always right" however, in this case, I don't think that's the case.  That's when the fabricator/welder has to stand his ground.As mentioned, 600# may not seem like a lot, however you start adding in the "live loading" experienced when traveling over rough terrain and the whole picture changes.Personally, if the customer insisted on doing it wrong, some other welder would be doing the fabrication.  That's just the way I do business.Heck, Northern Tools has a 3-Pt. hitch with pallet forks for $469.  Also show a 3-Pt Carry All Fork Attachment (36" forks, 500lb load) for $89.I'd bet a google search would turn up a set of used forks for less than the cost of new mild steel + labor.Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Reply:I tried to post some shop-built forks for general viewing pleasure, but I lost my work when I hit the "submit reply" button. Then the topic went off course, so now here goes take-two. I bought a machine with some shop-built forks on it.I don't know who built the forks, or for what purpose, I never used the forks except to carry the bucket that replaced them.Attachment 30092I stopped Carol Merrill who was walking by with some papers, and asked her to "dime" the fork's heel. HEEL! Attachment 30093Notice the high-strangeness in the heel reinforcement?It is welded to the tine but not the fork's back. And another view of the heel:Attachment 30094Dim the lights, and drum roll please Maestro, for the weld picture:Attachment 30095Last edited by denrep; 08-26-2009 at 09:58 AM.
Reply:Specter!I am still waiting to hear back from the guy after telling him that it either had to be made using the forks I found or I can make the forks using some stronger steel, but the later would cost him more!denrep!Yikes!Now thats some ugly welds you got there!Looks like that welder and or weldor? maybe had a bad case of the runs that day!Here I've been embarrassed to show closeups of my welds, cause I ain't never been much for making pretty welds, just welds that are strong, but after seeing those!Ya think they be safe to use?Ken.#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Thanks for the update Ken.are you sure those are welds and not caked on mud?Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Post #28 shows a strange build...Layout and planning looks sort of decent, but then the material used looks too light.Things are square and parallel and matching; but then a decent 5/8 gusset is chicken scratched to a 3/16 wall tube.If I get a chance I'll try to take some pics in less sunlight. I don't know if the forks ever did any work, but there doesn't appear to be any repairs, just the original build. Good Luck