union or open shop

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i am just about to finish welding school and have the opportunity to take an apprenticeship with the sheetmetal union.it seems like a good opportunity to me but my instructor is leary.i always thouth a good union apprenticeship was the way to go but he says wait and work part time for a small shop and see what happens.any advice would be greatly appreciated.lightningrod
Reply:This should be a interesting threadLincoln Ranger 8                        Lincoln 175                          Drill pressLincoln 225 mig                            Plasma                              8 ft brake        52" jump shear
Reply:This is a Ford/Chevy debate...  The truth is there are pro's and cons to both sides of the union vs. non union shops.  I'll hold off and see where this goes before I give my opinion... lolI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I would take it, you can learn where ever you go. You don't have to adopt the "union attitude" that some people like your instructor are leary of, that's completely up to you.  You can always work in the evenings and weekends at another non union shop as well to see the other side of the coin. There's nothing that says you have to stay there if you don't like it.   The more shops you work at the better of a welder you will become by being exposed to as many different processes and procedures as you can.Just my 2 centsGood Luck
Reply:I'll never understand why anyone who works is opposed to the idea of a union.
Reply:if the unions offering you an apprenticeship take it, you won't be sorryMarkIronworkers local 97
Reply:I was kinda expecting a big yelling screaming debate like I have experienced on a HVAC bbs. Not happening here. If they are offering you to join their local, you will go in as a apprentice. I don't know if tin knockers are a 4 yr or if they went to a 5 yr apprenticeship. BUT You should do it. As a union tin knocker, you will get one of the best educations you can get in your field as far as all hands on training.You will get taught the theory's, math formulas and technical know how.You will get taught and certified in the latest and greatest safety requirements, OSHA MSHA scissor lifts, snorkels, fork lifts.   on and on. And as a union tin knocker, you will see and experience alot of jobs and situations that MOST non union contractors don't even get a chance to look at. This is worth it's weight in gold.Then there is the money, bennys and the other stuff. And yes, I have quite a bit of union experience.Lincoln Ranger 8                        Lincoln 175                          Drill pressLincoln 225 mig                            Plasma                              8 ft brake        52" jump shear
Reply:a union trained man can work non union jobs if he has to.insert thoughtful quote from someone else2000 Thermal Arc 300GTSW 3.5 hours1946 Monarch 20 x 54 Lathe1998 Supermax 10x54 Mill2004 Haco Atlantic 1/2" Capacity Lasernot mine but i get to play with it
Reply:Originally Posted by ER70s-2I would take it, you can learn where ever you go. You don't have to adopt the "union attitude" that some people like your instructor are leary of, that's completely up to you.  You can always work in the evenings and weekends at another non union shop as well to see the other side of the coin. There's nothing that says you have to stay there if you don't like it.   The more shops you work at the better of a welder you will become by being exposed to as many different processes and procedures as you can.Just my 2 centsGood Luck
Reply:Discussing unions is a lot like discussing religion: You either are a believer or your not, and you will get into an argument either way.A big part of your decision should depend on what part of the country you live in. Florida is a "right to work" state, so unions have limited (read almost no) power. Most of the states in the rust belt favor union labor heavily, and you won't go far without a card.Personally, no one in my immediate family ever worked in a represented shop, and we've all done quite well. I'm sure part of that can be attributed to what unions have contributed to labor, overall, through the years (just to nip that argument in the bud).Unions fought for workers to get a better share of the profits when times were good at the auto industry, as they should have, but when times went sour, and profits turned to debt, they didn't seem as willing to share in the cutbacks.You'll just have to decide if you want to work for a company that will reward you on your performance (or screw you), or work for one that considers everyone in a trade of equal value, no matter individual performance.Flame away. Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC (Sold)Miller Dialarc 250HFMiller MM251Miller MM200 (Sold)Miller MM130Miller Spot WelderVictor O/A rigMiller Spoolmatic 1 (Sold)
Reply:I'm a teacher and weld for fun. Go union!!
Reply:Ironworkers local 15 hartford Ct. The best part about unions is they will teach you the trade. If you decide you don't like the Union BS after the apprenticeship then stop paying your dues and head out the door to the open shop sector. Kind of a scummy thing to do BUT a man has to do what he has to do i guess. You will have training and certs out the anoos. Those certs belong to you not the hall...so you can take them with you anywhere you go. Also if work is slow through the hall you can always talk to your organizer about salting...working for open shops and gathering information and/or trying to organize the shop. Either way you get a check right/ Not to mention you can collect unemployment when you are out of work.My suggestion to any young man comming into the trades is to not be blinded by the money. If you want to live comfortable in almost any economy I would suggest learning how to live on 20-25 hours a week. This way you can still make your bill payments on time even if there is a short week due to weather, material issues, or even if you are unemployed. Most of the time your unemploymen works out to be about half of your normal check if you are maxed out on unemployment. The big money and over time will make buying a new truck, welder, boat, atv etc...seem like a good plan...trust me its not unless you can pay cash and have NO payments. No matter your path I hope the trades treat you well and you treat your trade well.'Mike
Reply:"The main reason is the union doesn't want you using their medical if you get hurt in a non-union shop."The main reason is they dont want you to take your knowledge (taught by the union) and taking it to a non union shop. Our training is why we can make the wages we do."Unions fought for workers to get a better share of the profits when times were good at the auto industry, as they should have, but when times went sour, and profits turned to debt, they didn't seem as willing to share in the cutbacks."Oh, I disagree. Did you know that the average pay of CEO's and CFO's of large corporations grew more than 400% in the last ten years? Dont blame the failings of a large corporation on the workers.I havent made any 400% increases in my pay lately.There has been good information on this thread, I just felt the need to respond.
Reply:The one thing you won't get an argument on is the salaries, specifically the overpayment  of CEO / CFO's. Trouble is, there's only very few of them compared to blue collar workers, and even if you CUT their pay by 400%, it wouldn't have been enough to save GM from bankruptcy. Truthfully, I doubt any concession by the UAW at that point would have been enough, there were just too many factors to blame on one or two parties.I grew up in Pittsburgh PA, which was the major steel town of the US. If you look at it today, it's virtually a ghost town as far as blue collar union work goes. All that's left are service jobs, or those that require a degree. That or dealing drugs, or law enforcement!The same can be said for almost any city / town that grew up around organized labor (Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Toledo, Detroit, Flint, etc.). The times were good for many decades, but most are a former shadow of themselves. The current financial / employment state of each one pretty much speaks volumes.Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC (Sold)Miller Dialarc 250HFMiller MM251Miller MM200 (Sold)Miller MM130Miller Spot WelderVictor O/A rigMiller Spoolmatic 1 (Sold)
Reply:A lot of wise words written above!!  Just tthe everything else in life theres good ones and bad ones that gos for unions too.  Some locals are better than others . bottom line, the shop you work for is the biggest thing. Bosses can be a-holes union or nonunion.  Location is a big thing, If your in the middle of wyoming there's no reason to be union. but if you live in a big city ny la or such IMO it would be wise to go union.  It's a great way to get your feet wet, good networking and free school .  go for it!Daye
Reply:Fu3kit.  A job is a job, is a job.  Union, non-union.........when your learning, take what you can get & move forward.  Make your own decision after you have a year or two's experience.Then if you don't want to work that shop, move on.  If you like where you are working, stay there.  The ball is in your court.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Thanks for all the good advice,it has been most helpful.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack OlsenI'll never understand why anyone who works is opposed to the idea of a union.
Reply:i think  tigmusky has a valid point..generalizations aint valid..some is good and some aint..i dont think you'll weld very much as a tinknocker...
Reply:Never turn down a chance to learnTurkeyLincoln Idealarc 250Millermatic 250Miller Synchrowave 250 Miller Synchrowave 350Thermal Arc PlasmaHH140Miller Diversion
Reply:Fat-Bastard...I said kind of scummy. Also one does not pay for the education when they are working and being paid while learning the basics of a trade. Also if the dues are anything close to what my yearly dues are he would not have paid very much at all for 4-6 years of elite trade training. Love unions...hate them...there is never a question that unions produce knowledable hands.  Plenty of great hands in open shop as well don't get me wrong.If I were you bro I would take the chance with the union and if you don't like it walk away. Nothing to loose really.'Mike
Reply:Originally Posted by ironman715Love unions...hate them...there is never a question that unions produce knowledable hands.  Plenty of great hands in open shop as well don't get me wrong.If I were you bro I would take the chance with the union and if you don't like it walk away. Nothing to loose really.'Mike
Reply:Fat BastardPlease explain your comment. I belong to the "Teachers Union" and proud of it.Last edited by Reebs; 07-17-2009 at 05:40 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by ReebsFat BastardPlease explain your comment. I belong to the "Teachers Union" and proud of it.
Reply:To the OP, take the apprenticeship and the education, times are tough and offers like that are few and far between.   Anyplace willing to teach you a first rate education in the trade of your choice is worth the time and effort.  As with any education, you will only get out of it what you put into it.  Oh and the whole union/non-union thing, I'm non-union, always have been, but I've had guys on my jobs that have been through the training and I know it's worth while.  Once you get your training, it's up to you how you use it.Why do you think the "unions " get most of  the big jobs. $$$ Gov. I agree get the education and work for yourself that way you will be rewarded for your performance and not the gang you belong to. Like someone said earlier Love em or hate em. GM did such a fine job with their unions. Seems the Gov jobs are the only big ones going on these days because they can afford the high price on our dime.Annamel TW9Y Georgia
Reply:Originally Posted by ReebsI'm a teacher and weld for fun. Go union!!
Reply:Thank you very much everyone,this is great information.You are all smart and kind,welders and tradesmen are a breed apart.fine folks.Thank you all.
Reply:Originally Posted by TeljkonI think i can fill in for Fat Bastard. He is most likely comenting on the sorry state of our public school system. To a large extent the teachers unions are responsible for it. Unions setting down rules like the princeple is only alowed to enter the class room at pre determinded dates and only with notification. I dont know about everyone eles but i couldnt imagine trying to manage somone under thos cercumstances. Our edjucation system is in such shambles that our most notable citizen has taken it up as his charge to change it. Bill Gates. Unionization can both be a help to society and a burden its very efficient at producing skilled labor but at the same time it very bad for our goverment interms of taking advantage capitalism for public works.PS. Pleas excuse the spelling im a product of our public school system. :P
Reply:Originally Posted by Sparky#1Well their is alot more to it,what about teachers who fail kids just to have the principle change the grades and move them on. Teachers also are responsible for their own supplies like making copies on their own dime and chart paper. My wife has quite a large out of pocket expense to teach children just to have them passed when they fail. These issues are not the union but the higher ups.
Reply:Originally Posted by ReebsFat BastardPlease explain your comment. I belong to the "Teachers Union" and proud of it.
Reply:To the OP I would go the the trade unions and sign up. I hire out of Local 751, I have only been disappointed with 1 member as regards to his skills set. The men and women of this local are vary professional, highly skilled, and vary motivated to get the job done. When finished with your training you will have a valuable set of skills, they will be yours, free to trade to the highest bidder. Good luck.
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughesAmen. You guys think that this man's wife is paid such a high union salary and she should be made to pay out of pocket for teaching your kids? Thank Sparky here for covering those out of pocket expenses for us because it is more likely that his union job has given their family the ability to afford to do such things. Thank your union brothers for prevailing wage jobs, water and port a potties on the job site, a trailer to eat your lunch in, your safety on the job site, overtime pay, double time pay, holidays off, per diem etc. When we negotiate a higher wage for ourselves, you non union guys benefit from that too because your wage goes up as well.
Reply:In todays economy and you being just out of school if you got got an offer of a good job with benifits you take it, union or not. Nobody can make you stay there if you don't like it and  got something better to go to.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardAll good points and most if not all of the job site and working condition items you listed are now LAW and do not require any further union intervention. The higher wages you fight for need to be balanced with real world economic conditions. That a man works another year is in itself is not reason to increase his wages. When do wages commiserate with performance come into play.
Reply:I fully agree teachers deserve more money for what they do and better edjucating enviorments but I belive whole heartedly in preformance I also think that all teachers should have to work in private industry for a minimum # of years depending on how old there students are all the best teachers that I ever had worked in privat industry befor becoming teachers. To many of them graduate colladge and go right into edjucating others and have no idea what it means to go out there and make a living for them selfs. I think this is what makes so many of them unrelateable and some never mature. Look at the lady that slept with all her students.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardAll good points and most if not all of the job site and working condition items you listed are now LAW and do not require any further union intervention. The higher wages you fight for need to be balanced with real world economic conditions. That a man works another year is in itself is not reason to increase his wages. When do wages commiserate with performance come into play.
Reply:Everyone here talks about union training, this isn't always so. The OP said sheet metal didn't say which union. If it is the sheet metal/aerospace workers he can forget about any training from the union. This is from a former member, not something I heard but something I experienced. So to the OP, check to see what the offer would entail before excepting anything. Ask about any training that would be provided and what if any costs you would incur. Ask which union and then check that union out. sm/as could be different in other areas but I doubt it.
Reply:Let me start by saying I'm an apprentice here in the Atlanta, Ga UA Local 72. I get paid 8hrs to go to school one day a week. In fact, the school hired me to help build our new welding school which will offer no obligation free welding training for 16 weeks. At the end they'll be welcomed into our program if they so choose. I just finished OSHA 30 and hopefully will have my UA-51 Cert (Brazing) soon. My >80 average means I don't pay for books either. The fact that Georgia's a "right to work" state is really irrelevant to our local. I'd agree that Unions are individual from each other albeit with similar goals. We've had many great, hardworking guys join that came from from open shop environments but in general, they're not nearly as well rounded in their knowledge base as Union trained hands
Reply:Originally Posted by AnnamelWhy do you think the "unions " get most of  the big jobs. $$$ Gov. I agree get the education and work for yourself that way you will be rewarded for your performance and not the gang you belong to. Like someone said earlier Love em or hate em. GM did such a fine job with their unions. Seems the Gov jobs are the only big ones going on these days because they can afford the high price on our dime.
Reply:Originally Posted by bratkid63 Florida is a "right to work" state, so unions have limited (read almost no) power. Most of the states in the rust belt favor union labor heavily, and you won't go far without a card.You'll just have to decide if you want to work for a company that will reward you on your performance (or screw you), or work for one that considers everyone in a trade of equal value, no matter individual performance.Flame away.
Reply:Originally Posted by regularfellaWith all due respect, Ga is also a RTW state but that certainly doesn't take away the Unions rights as you've implied. The Local I'm in has a contract with each individual company and we've not had a strike since '54. We've had to forego raises and compromise on benefits when times got lean. We have a wage scale which only serves as a minimum; many of us are paid "over scale" as the contractor sees fit and said contractor can layoff and hire as he/she see's necessary. I think there are probably many people out there in an open shop environment doing just fine and that's great but I won't apologize for pursuing a better way of life by being a member of a great organization that helps me do so. Here's an interesting fact for the people with any doubts as to the money behind RTW legislationhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law""Critics from organized labor have argued since the late 1970s[14] that while the National Right to Work Committee purports to engage in grass-roots lobbying on behalf of the "little guy", the National Right to Work Committee was formed by a group of southern businessmen with the express purpose of fighting unions, and that they "added a few workers for the purpose of public relations."[15] They also argue that the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation has received millions of dollars in grants from foundations controlled by major U.S. industrialists like the New York based John M. Olin Foundation, Inc. which grew out of a family manufacturing business,[15][16][17] and other "right wing" groups.[14]""I just ask that you guys keep an open mind with regards to Organized Labor and a pre-emptive apology if I seem too confrontational
Reply:This isn't my first rodeo buddy. While I'd agree with you that Wiki is often inaccurate. In this particular instance, it saved me from having to post all the individual sources and it served to include the needed ACCURATE information without posting several different URL's. Right wing is open to interpretation and the average person will come to their own conclusion but that doesn't detract from the issue. I didn't need Wiki (nor did it exist) to get  through all those Polly-Sci courses either my friend. Please feel free to dispute any of the facts that I posted since you're so suspicious of their origin. I'll be holding my breath-LOL.Last edited by regularfella; 07-18-2009 at 09:39 PM.
Reply:I'm another one who has worked both.  Did my inside electrical apprenticeship non union, but most of my Journeyman were brought up through the union.  Was lucky to have worked for two of the better shops in the area.  Now I am working union and have been for 8 years with a great job that I hope to retire in. There is good and bad in in anything if you want to find it.  There are the obvious facts--- there is just more opportunity to get some better training through the union, and you probably will have some better benefits.  When you are through like the others said you can always go where you want.  Was I in your position, I'd take the plunge.IBEW Local #125Millermatic 252"Don't worry, he's got a welder, he can fix anything"
Reply:I'm currently non union and doing damn fine by it but with that said if I was a young kid starting out I would get into an apprenticeship and put in my 20 years doing the best job I could.   if you do things right by the time you have 20 years in your going to be in your early 40's  That's plenty young enough to go back to college if you so desire and get an engineering deg and be the guy that gets to make everyone else's life more difficult.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:On another note; several of our signatory contractors started out as journeymen. It would be less than honest to say that there aren't positives on both sides. It's great to hear that an employer treats his/her employees so well that they don't need to form a Union. Unfortunately, that's usually not the case
Reply:My 2 cents. I've worked both also, the only thing I'd have to say is; don't hide behind the union. I've seen so many excellent Ironworkers get "lazy". I belive the union is a good idea on educating and real world experience. It won't be like that long if people keep takin advantage of it, for the wrong reasons.   Go with your gut feelin and GOOD LUCK!Don't let that iron in your lungs, turn to lead in your @$$!!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by Ironmower It won't be like that long if people keep takin advantage of it, for the wrong reasons.
Reply:Originally Posted by regularfellaI've been in the Atlanta Local for 3 yrs now and have yet to work on a Govt job big or small?!?!?! We just got a huge contract from Ga Power and we had to compete with open shop contractors to get it. In fact, our Local in Chattanooga just got the Volkswagen Plant. I'd greatly appreciate you telling me about these "big money Govt jobs"  I'm missing out on You seem to think that "UAW = all unions" and that's simply not true. Generalizations are a dangerous thing because you'll find more people like myself that will call you out on innaccurate statements
Reply:Originally Posted by AnnamelCall me out if you want but (LOL) as I said MOST OF THE BIG JOBS . When the employee starts demanding what he wants then there is something wrong. He wanted a job and I gave him that. If you owned a company with several employees you might see it differently. Saw an interview on NBC and the GMUAW rep was asked how many unexcused absences can an employee have before he is fired and the rep replied after several attempts to ignore the question  said  5. You have got to be kidding me. I am glad for you on your employment but have not and will not ever think a UNION is the answer. I am not attacking you as a person but as a group. There are strength in numbers and that seems to be the angle the union takes as with the Govt.Toyota employees get paid on their performance not just because they show up. Check that fact. All things aside you are probally a good person and a good provider for your family and I am glad for you so keep up the good work. We all do what we have to do.