Possibly getting out of the military and thinking of unions

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Ok so a little background of me first. I'm a 4 year enlistee of the Air Force with a year left to go active. I'm in the metals tech shop where we machine and weld. We are trained on lathes and mills and other machining processes. Also trained on the welding side. Tig, mig, arc, oxy,and metal working processes short of sheet metal stuff. I want to stay with this area of work but not sure about putting my wife and 16 month sonthrough more deployments and the whole military life. I want to be there for both of them.So my questions are about unions. I have been to the Boilermakers and UA websitesto get some info on this career field. I saw that there can be long times away from home for jobs and that was me thinking another career maybe machining. Questions: 1. While in apprenticeship do you get paid at all or is it just like 4 or 5 years of schooling?I looked at the FAQ's on there site and couldn't find the answer. Might be a dumb question.2. Who's better in your own opinion, Ironworkers, Boilermakers, or UA? 3. What is the pay like after you get into the union on average? 4. Would machining be better than welding pay wise? This is a big decision for me and the family and I want to best for them. I have to say pay to be the most important thing to consider for my family. Sounds crappy but that is the truth. I am tired of living check to check with no savings. Any comments or answers are greatly appreciated. Thanks
Reply:Is machining better than welding?It depends on whether you are an operator or CNC programmer.  Many jobs now are highly automated.  The best pay is for those who program or can do set-ups.  But, there are toolmaker jobs that pay very well.  I know a custom tool and die Journeyman who made $60-$70K in the aerospace industry around 15 years ago.I would say the pay might be similar for both, but welding would have the upper hand if you were willing to do pipe with your own rig and travel.  That could bring in over $100K.  One guy at the aws website posted and income of $170K even for pipe welding.
Reply:Im a member of both unions. They pay around the same, have about the same pension plans, have the same shift differential. The loa is pretty much the same. Working in either you can make some pretty good money. The apprenticeship pay a percentage of the journeyman rates. Boilermakers pay 63% of J for first year, 68% for 2nd year, and so on. Each local might be slightly different. You dont have to travel if you dont want to, but thats where the large money is. When I put in my travel card to go out of town I go for 3 weeks then come home for 8 days, its not too bad. I was able to pay off my mortgage in 5 years by going out of town to camps. Your best bet is to go into the union hall and talk with someone, they'll be able to answer all your questions relevant to the local in your area.
Reply:The sheet metal union is also a good place to work. Good pay and you don't have to travel to find work and they are always looking for good welders and layout men.
Reply:Thanks for the replies guys. I am going to have to sit down with the wife when I get back to the states. It would have been an easier decision right out of high school or somethingbut it's a little more complicated now. I have been looking into CNC machining classes at our local community college and looking into the job market in Tucson and Phoenix. If I were to reenlist for another four and get out then I could have 8 years of CNC experience and from what I've seen I could start out at a shop in the mid to high 20's per hour. Still up in the air with all this.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mr.BigweldThanks for the replies guys. I am going to have to sit down with the wife when I get back to the states. It would have been an easier decision right out of high school or somethingbut it's a little more complicated now. I have been looking into CNC machining classes at our local community college and looking into the job market in Tucson and Phoenix. If I were to reenlist for another four and get out then I could have 8 years of CNC experience and from what I've seen I could start out at a shop in the mid to high 20's per hour. Still up in the air with all this.
Reply:You can weld and machine, alot of people only do one or the other. Why not get a job doing both? There is some pretty interesting work for people who can take the project all the way.I know some people like unions but I personally make it a point to stay as far away as possible. Why lock yourself into a union that just does certain things, you could be workin somewhere manual machining a couple parts in the morning then welding them up later for some prototype, then writing the program for the CNC mill the following week to make a bunch.Just my opinion.Yup
Reply:First off I would like to commend you for your family values and wanting to be close to your loved ones.I was a metals processing specialist in the Air Force. 427x4(evidently they use a different code now?) We worked along side the machinists. All welding and fabrication, mostly repair on F15 Eagle components. If not for the training I recieved I would probably still be flippin' burgers. So we are kind of birds of a feather.I have to side with Rojodiablo on the union thing. I did it for a while, and its pretty much just the way he explains. Plus Alot of union jobs are prone to layoffs. There are plenty of people who live, eat, and breathe union, and I am not knocking them, some people live fruitful lives in the union,I am not saying its not for you, I am just saying beware.Theres a million and one more options for you, you just have to find them.  It took me trying it myself to figure out that it wasn't for me.For someone like you coming out of the military with such fantastic skills, there is a world of abundant work out there. But you have to find your nitch. I know how frightening it can be making a big change like that. Just stay on top of it. Things will work out.
Reply:I would say that the Ironworkers are the best but then again I AM a union Ironworker so...But seriously I know the fitters(UA) and the sprinklerfitters make big money and have a lot of work generaly. The sprinkler fitters are one of the top payed trades right now. The other trade you may think of is the Elevator contructors union. These cats install and service elevators, conveyor systems(say in air ports for people to not walk a long distance) esculators and tons of other stuff. I am pretty sure they are the highest paid trade right now.I know the Boilermakers and NTL(tank builders) guys travel a lot but make big money in a few months...PM if you want more info.''Mike
Reply:You couldn't force me to go union with a gun to my head. I've done both sheet metal and high and misc iron..all non-union. Made good money and didn't have to play union games. Plus, I was free to do what I wanted, when I wanted job field-wise without going to some schmucks to ask permission to change. Unions may have been a good idea 80 years ago...but their time has passed. I just wish they would as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mark...First off I would like to commend you for your family values and wanting to be close to your loved ones.I was a metals processing specialist in the Air Force. 427x4(evidently they use a different code now?) We worked along side the machinists. All welding and fabrication, mostly repair on F15 Eagle components. If not for the training I recieved I would probably still be flippin' burgers. So we are kind of birds of a feather.I have to side with Rojodiablo on the union thing. I did it for a while, and its pretty much just the way he explains. Plus Alot of union jobs are prone to layoffs. There are plenty of people who live, eat, and breathe union, and I am not knocking them, some people live fruitful lives in the union,I am not saying its not for you, I am just saying beware.Theres a million and one more options for you, you just have to find them.  It took me trying it myself to figure out that it wasn't for me.For someone like you coming out of the military with such fantastic skills, there is a world of abundant work out there. But you have to find your nitch. I know how frightening it can be making a big change like that. Just stay on top of it. Things will work out.
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52You couldn't force me to go union with a gun to my head. I've done both sheet metal and high and misc iron..all non-union. Made good money and didn't have to play union games. Plus, I was free to do what I wanted, when I wanted job field-wise without going to some schmucks to ask permission to change. Unions may have been a good idea 80 years ago...but their time has passed. I just wish they would as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by admsweldingWithout them all you workers not owners would be working for 5 bucks and hour and don,t you forget it!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by admsweldingWithout them all you workers not owners would be working for 5 bucks and hour and don,t you forget it!!!
Reply:Lets see your co. erect a 20 story high rise.You and how many guys you got?By the way that place you call gone still strong here in boston and ny i,m sure of.Who do you think build these citys some small time outfit like yours i doubt it. Last edited by admswelding; 07-27-2008 at 07:20 PM.
Reply:I almost forgot one of the unions sloggans or what you might refer to as propaganda AMERICAN BY BIRTH/UNION BY CHOICE!  No one strong armed me into joining i made that decision on my own!!
Reply:Well, when I was working for companies instead of running them, we put up the high iron 10-30 stories. We were open shop like about 90% of the iron workers here. No mystery there. This state is a right to work state and the unions have zero say or power here. If you don't like it..tough. That is how it is. I could care less what happens with the north. The world does not revolve around the northeast or the west..contrary to what you guys may believe.
Reply:No it doesn,t it now revolves around the debt your fellow/statesmen  oil pig buddy BUSH got us in.
Reply:Doesn't have anything to do with me dood.
Reply:My union doesn,t control me i work all i want and they can,t do a thing about and they know it!!! I got the right to work here in mass also.
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52Doesn't have anything to do with me dood.
Reply:How much $/hr you open shop guys makin down there?Union ironworkers boston $32/HR.  W/ins,pension,annuity.
Reply:Ok, all I did was state my opinion. Then you go and get all bugg-eyed and nasty on me. If that is how you wanna play..fine. Leave me out of it. That is the decorum I have been shown by union types time and time again. Belittle the opposition since they do not agree with you. It has even gone to violence a time or three...I may even have the police reports around here somewhere. All we want is to be left alone and do what we do...why does that threaten you so badly? If you want to play union type..be my guest. Run at me on the job and harass us like the others did and the same reaction will happen. I do not belittle you for making your choices....do what you want. All we ask is you respect our decision..whether you like it or not. How hard is that?
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52Ok, all I did was state my opinion. Then you go and get all bugg-eyed and nasty on me. If that is how you wanna play..fine. Leave me out of it. That is the decorum I have been shown by union types time and time again. Belittle the opposition since they do not agree with you. It has even gone to violence a time or three...I may even have the police reports around here somewhere. All we want is to be left alone and do what we do...why does that threaten you so badly? If you want to play union type..be my guest. Run at me on the job and harass us like the others did and the same reaction will happen. I do not belittle you for making your choices....do what you want. All we ask is you respect our decision..whether you like it or not. How hard is that?
Reply:Originally Posted by admsweldingHow much $/hr you open shop guys makin down there?Union ironworkers boston $32/HR.  W/ins,pension,annuity.Originally Posted by Rojodiablo Also, its' not only what a person makes, it is the type of jobs they do
Reply:It looks like I may have started a union turf war or something.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloSomewhere in the range of $80 an hr to weld on yachts in the basin. I do okay when I have the time to do it. I get my projects in fits and spurts, and only work on specific boats, so I don't do it full time. I run a construction/ remodel business in my normal life. I do all right. Also, its' not only what a person makes, it is the type of jobs they do, how much they have to travel, on and on. I have a few friends who work offshore. They make crazy money for a few months at a time. But they are away from thier kids, families, etc a lot. Its' all relative.
Reply:first time here and had to post about this. First off I'm in the ua out of the Midwest. I'm first generation never known anyone related to me to be in the union. Are hall is both plumbers and fitters. Your first two years are usually rough as far as pay goes but out here your making over 40 an hour as a journymen. Also you need to talk to your local hall cause with your experience you may be able to get in At an acclerated level starting at 3rd year apprentice pay which is close to 30 an hour. Also you do travel but it's your choice I never been forced to travel nor had to get permission to work with a different company. Just don't be burning bridges like any company you ever work for.  If work is slow just say to your boss hey company A has work for me and many places will understand.  As for traveling I never had to travel over an hour for work some it is different do to where they choose to live. But yes sometimes work is a distance away but you are not forced to go and they understand especially with having a young family. Though traveling can make you big money and  seems to always offer overtime. You can at times make a years wages in a 6 month period. It is true though tomorrow is never guranteed!!!Also I do feel because of unions wages are better in general to all. But there will always be guys who pay an honest wage.
Reply:also if you do travel you will get extra for room and food.
Reply:Originally Posted by UAfalconfirst time here and had to post about this. First off I'm in the ua out of the Midwest. I'm first generation never known anyone related to me to be in the union. Are hall is both plumbers and fitters. Your first two years are usually rough as far as pay goes but out here your making over 40 an hour as a journymen. Also you need to talk to your local hall cause with your experience you may be able to get in At an acclerated level starting at 3rd year apprentice pay which is close to 30 an hour. Also you do travel but it's your choice I never been forced to travel nor had to get permission to work with a different company. Just don't be burning bridges like any company you ever work for.  If work is slow just say to your boss hey company A has work for me and many places will understand.  As for traveling I never had to travel over an hour for work some it is different do to where they choose to live. But yes sometimes work is a distance away but you are not forced to go and they understand especially with having a young family. Though traveling can make you big money and  seems to always offer overtime. You can at times make a years wages in a 6 month period. It is true though tomorrow is never guranteed!!!Also I do feel because of unions wages are better in general to all. But there will always be guys who pay an honest wage.
Reply:mrbigweld,i,m a fitter around chicago. first, thank you for serving our country. the UA has a program called"helmets to hard hats" the UA is the national org. for fitters,sprinks,plumbers. go on the UA website to find out more. it is doing a big push to help out servicemen. as an aside, i have never encountered union games here.they have always helped me when i needed it(with no clout) maybe it happens with smaller locals. you can't beet the pay,benifits,pension in my opinion.
Reply:Originally Posted by BurnitI hope your joking. Would I be walking to work, uphill both ways, in the snow? After milking all the cows?
Reply:Originally Posted by pumahvacmrbigweld,i,m a fitter around chicago. first, thank you for serving our country. the UA has a program called"helmets to hard hats" the UA is the national org. for fitters,sprinks,plumbers. go on the UA website to find out more. it is doing a big push to help out servicemen. as an aside, i have never encountered union games here.they have always helped me when i needed it(with no clout) maybe it happens with smaller locals. you can't beet the pay,benifits,pension in my opinion.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mr.BigweldThanks for your support. Not to much of that around anymore it seems sometime.I have looked into the Helmets to Hard Hats and registered to search for jobsin my area and found a few that might be possibilities. The program seems focusedon helping service members transition into a job that is close to their military job whichis very nice. I found both machining and welding jobs in my area. SR20STEVE:I do have a clean record.No write ups or anything with all 5's on my EPR's.All of the feedbacks I have received are very positive about my workmanship.  I haven'tlooked into the oil companies yet. My father-in-law mentioned that the other day in an email. The one thing negative I can think of about working on a oil rig would be the time away from my wife and son. I don't think the money would be worthmissing baseball games and family outings to me. I am sure it is good money though.I will still look into them. I am sure not all jobs involve being on a rig for weeks at a time. I still am thinking of whether to reenlist or not and to go to school for either CNC machining or advanced welding. To many decisions to make. Thanks again to everyone that have posted. I have learned quite a bit about the positives and negatives about being in a union as well as there is an actual  job market out there for welders and machinist outside the military.
Reply:Actualy REAL...Union Ironworkers in the Boston area are making more like $38ish an hour in the pocket for 8 in a day. Time and a half after 8 up to 2 hours then double time after that. Time and a half all day Saturday up to 8 hours double time there after. Double time all day Sunday. Plus the benifits package is the area of another $40 an hour. So really if it were all cash money in the check it would be more like being paid $78 an hour. FYI Ironworkers in metro NY make over $40 an hour....Plus Ironworkers are not the highes paid trade either....As far as Ironworking goes most open shops are hackers...not to say there are no hackers in the union side either. Frankly if a cat feels so strongly against the union and what it is trying to do for the WORKER then we don't want them.I have NO issue with a company who treats there hands with respect and pays a FAIR wage. Any shop that does good work and pays well I have no gripe with. There are union shops that treat you like crap and open shops that will do anyting to keep a good hand even during slow times.Good and bad on all sides kids. I chose the union because it trained me well and provided a good life for me and my family. If an open shop could do the same I would be happy to switch sides. I ahve even salted open shops before...I went from making $31 plus benifits(total pay about $54 an hour) to being the highest paid hand at a whopping $18 an hour no benifits no truck no nothing....
Reply:I believe Ironman715 has hit the nail on the head with this one.Its not a matter of union, non-union; its a matter of who at the end of the day will give me the best wage and benefits.I have had good success with being a union sheetmetal worker.Would like to start out saying i paid for all my welding education, and welded for 8+ years non-union.Started at a small custom stainless production shop, got involved with being my companys Union steward and got to know the Union Rep's.After showing the reps that i was a reputable hard worker, honest, and cared about my job i was quickly moved through the ranks of many.I was "recommended" for a new job which pay $8 more an hour than the previous,as well as given my journeymans card without the years of apprenticeship training. After working in the Building trades side for a while i was recommended for the Welding teachers position for the local union apprenticeship.I also used the free education they provided to further myself and ended up in the computer field now doing CAD work for a local union sheetmetal shop.I still enjoy welding through teaching, and any side jobs i may take on but can say i do miss it from time to time.I can honestly say if it werent for the union i would still being working at a production shop for sub $20 an hour pay.Now i can happily say im in the $30+ an hour range (colorado foreman scale) and am loving the benefits of my job.In the end it all comes down to this....Im a whore for the money lol, and the money in the union is good!
Reply:all this talk of unions. I am down in San Antonio and went to talk to them. They pay the journeymen ironworkers here 17 somethin an hour. Seems kinda low! Course I am just breakin into this kinda stuff but the union pays their journeymen 17, I could go down the road to Zachry and be gettin closer to 30. BUT Zachry doesn't train.
Reply:Originally Posted by EvilTexanall this talk of unions. I am down in San Antonio and went to talk to them. They pay the journeymen ironworkers here 17 somethin an hour. Seems kinda low! Course I am just breakin into this kinda stuff but the union pays their journeymen 17, I could go down the road to Zachry and be gettin closer to 30. BUT Zachry doesn't train.
Reply:Concerning The Boilermakers:          I was in your shoes, same deal, Marine Sheetmetal Mech except no welding. Contrary to popular belief nobody is dying to hire vets with squeaky clean records and I sent out plenty of resumes ,went through TAPS and took it all seriously. Being Military seems to actually hurt sometimes, they assume thats your personality and whatnot and America hasn't been in touch with Vets since all the boys came home from WW2 and everybody knew somebody in uniform. I looked and looked and made nothing for years then I took an Arc welding course at a local college. The teacher was a retired Boilermaker, an incredible welder and very cool cat. I did the same research you did. Helmets to hardhats doesn't mean anything , contrary to what any website says as far the boilermakers go  Apprentices are drawn from a pool of applications which are leveled in 4 ways.Level 1  Tube welder with papers        They would call all these people firstLevel 2 Plate welder with papers         Then they would call these folksLevel 3 Post high school welding certsLevel 4 no quals   It reads that Helmets to hard hats would qualify you above level 1, or be one of the first new apprentices to be called up when they do a call up. Something happened and The Boilermakers don't acknowledge Helmets to... anymore, apparently the pentagon dept of manpower handed the website over to Monster and something happened somewhere, at least in my region of The Apprenticeship it did. I still got called up, just from level 3, which didn't mean much, most of the other apprentices were 3 and 4. It had no effect on your starting pay.          When you get in the Apprenticeship you can draw your GI bill as cash, tax free. I drew 1k month for 5 months then 895 for 6 months then 695 blah blah till you top out as a journeyman. All this is on top of your apprenticeship wages. Matter of fact it is directly linked to your work  hours, you would submit two apprenticeship reports, one to your area Boilermakers Apprenticeship Program and one to the VA, 120 hours of work a month draws your full VA amount, anything less is pro rated. This is the deal, its a bunch of paperwork to get started but it's nice when that loot hits the bank every month. One of the best benifits of service I have seen yet as a vet.Of course none of this is valid if you didn't pay into your GI Bill. If you have used some of it the VA will still review your paperwork and reward you some amount, you'll ultimately get a letter from the VA explaining the entire deal in the end.  Union Versus Non-union, well this goes alot of ways.  Yes there is lay-offs. It goes with the territory as a Boilermaker. Outage work is schedule work, 7 12's, 7 10's, 7 16's even. It's all how you manage your money. I have walked in a nuke power plant on a double bubble Sunday as a first step apprentice making 44 bucks an hour as plant augment finishing a refueling outage. Next week layed off and lookin' for job. There is "annual jobs" that go year round and plenty of apprentices find them in coal fired power plants from time to time. Lots of guys here in TN "boom out", go up north and work, make a pile of money and spend the summer layed off. Some guys only work 8 months a year. Not all boilermaker work is welding related. It is a huge feild of work covering lots of places to work as most crafts are.              You probably won't walk into bed of roses, military quals are just that. Military experience does mean alot on a job in some respects, usually in the way you conduct yourself  compared to other somewhat snotnosed "mah daddy is a bol'rmaker" apprentices. Hitting the job with a good attitude and putting out will get you looked at by those who matter. When they hire in a bunch of union hands they are usually looking to see who make first round culling. The workers stay and make money for the most part the feather weights are allready talking about the next job that is better than this one.              I have worked with nonunion hands as an apprentice. Been on a crew with them. They make fat cash for sure and they let me know. It was funny when they lost their perdiem, most of them drug up, which is just what the company wanted. There's lots of dirty pool but in the end they are making a living just the same. Just don't mention retirement or medical coverage. 2 of the guys on my crew had lawsuits going for injuries on other jobs and bills they were stuck with. very touchy subject.  I have been layed of since May and my family still has medical and dental coverage. I have a 3 month old daughter who has had some problems, I have seen more doctors than I ever cared to. The bills come back paid and to me that means alot.                Working out of The Hall has it's up and downs for sure. There's azzholes everywhere. I have been treated with dignity and respect on all jobs by my Journeyman and Superintendents and have noticed that the older hands are glad to see the younger guys getting it done. I have also made a huge network of friends, all crafts are the same in that respect I would say. Hope fully this helps you some in choosing your feild.You'd fit right in with any of them probably it just comes down to what hall you want to work out of.                    There are other ways into the Boilermakers. You can "buy a book" which means you start out as Journeyman making journeymans pay, usually it's based on previous work experience in the feild. You can guess how folks look at these guys regardless of their skills. "bought books" will never get the respect that a  Graduated Apprentice gets on the job. There's also "Permit hand", guys working on the job on permit from the hall. Most of them are trying to get in the apprenticeship and just making some money till they get indentured.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloWell, there is a trade off for everything in life. My helpers get between $80-130 a day. It takes them a solid year to get decent at any one thing. To get good enough to leave alone for the day?? It may take 2 years. A lot goes into them getting better pay, as well. If they spend $100 in tools in a year, their raises are gonna be slim. if they spend more like $400-800, I know they are taking the job more seriously. I train them harder, they get more pay, they have to learn a lot of stuff. I'll pay a lead man $200-300 a day, but he had better be able to take the project straight from prints or from a walk thru, and get it on! Many are good enough to be a lead man, but they are not motivated to push the work forward. And money does not fix that problem very often.
Reply:Union's aren't for everyone, I'll agree to that. I'm a 37yr old UA72 fitter apprentice, get paid to attend school 1 day a week, have med/dental/vision for the family to boot. World class training from good guys that want you to succeed in your field. They're not trying to just get you through the class. I've also seen some great hands come in from open shop employers but they're usually not as well rounded in their training. They'll usually know a lot about whatever their open shop worked on (many of which would concentrate on one or two areas ie: commercial, power plant, hospitals, retro-fitting, etc.) whereas the UA training will provide the the ins and outs, logistics, physics, and hands on training for all the disciplines. In fact, UA72 just provided me with OSHA 30 training; just had to show up for it. Sure, we have guys who could use a little "polishing" but you'll find that anywhere and "accountability" isn't a bad word in most locals. Only you can decide what's best for you and the family but I'd respectfully suggest that it'd be tough to beat an entire organization of your peers that negotiates a compensation package including retirement & annuity, provides training, & medical benefits often with the input of each individual member. Sorry for the long-winded rantLast edited by regularfella; 09-27-2009 at 03:55 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52You couldn't force me to go union with a gun to my head. I've done both sheet metal and high and misc iron..all non-union. Made good money and didn't have to play union games. Plus, I was free to do what I wanted, when I wanted job field-wise without going to some schmucks to ask permission to change. Unions may have been a good idea 80 years ago...but their time has passed. I just wish they would as well.
Reply:"I want to stay with this area of work but not sure about putting my wife and 16 month sonthrough more deployments and the whole military life. I want to be there for both of them."Consider a crosstrain into a field that deploys less to the Sandbox or not at all.  If the CAREERS program is still available, you may be able to switch easily. Deployments are stressful, but the military benefit package is spectacular and civilian jobs rarely have retirement benefits any more. It's nice not to have to work if you don't want to, and good luck finding a civilian gig where you care retire at 20 years with a good package. If you become disabled as a civilian, you are SOL. If you trash your back in the military, you get disability pay. If it's trashed when you are over 20, you get disability pay plus retirement pay if you are over 50-percent disabled (common). Most civilian jobs will SUCK compared to life in the modern Air Force with its comprehensive family support system. Metals Tech is a breeze and working conditions quite cozy compared to most civilian fab shops.Eject if you like, but the AF is totally insulated from the rest of the economy.  The recession in the 1980s? I didn't care, I was Active Duty. The recession today? I'm retired (as of 2007) and didn't have much money in the stock market. Beat that with a civilian job.The sixteen years you have left to make 20 offer all sorts of opportunities to make career moves that suit family life, you have basically guaranteed career progression, and useful things like being able to use BAH to buy a house. There is also the Guard or Reserve route, that will let you both work a civilian job and retain your military career. Good luck and thanks for your service!