Plumbing shop air. Why use Black Pipe?

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I just got my Hypertherm powermax 45 in the mail today and hopefully my Plasma Cam tomorrow.Since I used to only run small shop tools from my compressor I always just got by with a 100ft hose and no filtering.Now that I've invested in this unit I probably ought to spend a little $$$ on properly running air in my shop and to my Plasma cam setup.I've read through lots of threads about doing this. I was originally going to T off of my compressor with a seperate air hose, run it up to the roof, across the shop and down to my plasma with a drip leg and a motorguard in place.  HOWEVER, thanks to the forum, I have now realized that regular hose for the main line is not good. I should be using Black Pipe I guess.  Reason I was originally thinking about using air hose was I know it want rust like I thought Black pipe would over time....Will it not rust inside and cause a load of trouble.  Im just having this mental block about it...What does everyone use to rig their shop air???????
Reply:I used PVC. Schedule 40. No problems with rust. I have also soldered copper lines. But the PVC works fine, and is simple to use. Black pipe WILL rust, and you need to run a filter and a low end trap for condensation to collect rather than going through the tools.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:PVC deteriorates in the presence of UV  (not just sunlight, fluorescents put out a bunch too, as well as your welder) WHEN (not if) it fails, it fragments and sends shrapnel all around. another bad feature is that it wont allow the air to cool and drop its moisturehttp://www.lni.wa.gov/Safety/Basics/HazAlerts/902.asphttp://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.htmlLast edited by fredf; 09-25-2009 at 09:05 AM.-- fredLincoln 180C MIG
Reply:Hmm..Well what does everyone use? If it is black pipe does it blow out a bunch of rust all the time?
Reply:http://www.garage-pak.com/Here's a system specifically for shop air. I've never compared the price... I'm guessing its expensive. It will solve problems with rust, so it might save money over time.I'd be interested in other peoples thoughts and experience with this stuff.Dave
Reply:Originally Posted by chadwickz71Hmm..Well what does everyone use? If it is black pipe does it blow out a bunch of rust all the time?
Reply:I think copper best choice for most cases. Just remember that not all copper is equal though. Make sure to let the sales person know what you are using it for and what pressure you are going to be at before buying.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Most shops I've worked in have used copper piping.   I suppose galvanized steel or stainless pipe could be used too.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:most all the shops i have been in use black pipe.  then you install it, slop the horizontal and you won't have a pool of condensation.  it will drain into an appropriate collector to be expelled regularly.  don't use pvc.  copper is too expensive.
Reply:Interesting.Where I live copper would be about the same to install, and a whole lot easyer. I know in many industrial site black iron is more common but in most cases they are set up doing many other piping jobs and have a power threader on sight.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:We use 3/4 " thick walled copper pipe in the cnc shop with a Sharpe Spray Equipment air filtration system along with an air refrigerator to dry the air and it has an auto drain system. We also use 5/16" air hose. You also have to use an Air Table Pressure Drop chart to calculate the air pressure drop at your equipment given the inside  diameter of the air hose  and the overall length of the air hose.example: 5/16" ID air hose, 60 psi at compressor, 15' air hose gives you 55 psi at your equipment. Good thing is that with your Hypertherm PowerMax 45 its basically idiot proof in that you hook up your air line and watch the front of the PowerMax 45. If the air pressure is too low for the type of cutting you plan to do you will get a yellow light telling you to reset your pressure higher. Once your pressure is high enough you will see a green light on the front of the PowerMax 45 telling you that you are ready to begin.You can use black pipe but be sure to install that particle filter in addition to the water separator/filter. That particle filter will ensure not rust particles flow into your PowerMax and its torch.Hope that helpsTomCo-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:My compressor is a Quincy that has a shut off pressure of 180 psi. No way I would ever use plastic pipe on that!My piping is 100% galvanized.When you come down to enter your filter, come off the side of the run to go to the filter(s).Continue the leg on down for a 12 inches or so and put a valve in the line.I attached a rubber hose to mine that goes to the floor.All the moisture (the main part anyway) will run down this drip leg and collect on the closed valve.The filter removes the rest. Every once in a while open the valve and blow down the moisture.pgDynasty 200 DX_set up to run on 3 phaseCoolmate 3MM 251 w/ Spoolmatic 30AHTP 625 Micro Cut Plasma CutterVictor O/A RigBridgeport Mill_3 phase10 inch South Bend Lathe_3 phaseQuincy 325 2 Stg. Air Compressor_3 phase
Reply:Originally Posted by piniongearMy compressor is a Quincy that has a shut off pressure of 180 psi. pg
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmWhy in the hell would you run 180 psi of line pressure???
Reply:I have copper supply lines in my garage.    The pressure that the copper pipe will hold is rated K, L, M. with K being the highest and M the lowest.   K tubing is also called refrigeration tubeing.   From what I rember K will take 500 psi. M is about 250 psi.    If you are going to use copper look up the pressure ratings, my memory is not always correct.keith The older the boys, the more expensive the TOYS!!Previous owned;Linde 300 Amp welderMiller Gas drv welder, Tumbstone,Dayton Miller ac to dc converter,High frequency unitLongevity LS60PCurrrently owned;Longevity WeldAll 200PI
Reply:Originally Posted by KHKI have copper supply lines in my garage.    The pressure that the copper pipe will hold is rated K, L, M. with K being the highest and M the lowest.   K tubing is also called refrigeration tubeing.   From what I rember K will take 500 psi. M is about 250 psi.    If you are going to use copper look up the pressure ratings, my memory is not always correct.
Reply:Well crap looks like its just whatever I want to spend. Some use black, galv, or copper.My compressor kicks off at 120psi so I'll check the pressure but could probably get away with the cheaper line if its rated for 250psi etc.Problem is I have about a 90ft run.I can't believe it really but I looked at home depots site hear and it showed black pipe was 12.99 for 10ft and type L 1/2in copper was 11.99 for 10ft!  I just can't believe it...
Reply:Originally Posted by chadwickz71. . .Problem is I have about a 90ft run. . . .
Reply:Originally Posted by chadwickz71Well crap looks like its just whatever I want to spend. Some use black, galv, or copper.My compressor kicks off at 120psi so I'll check the pressure but could probably get away with the cheaper line if its rated for 250psi etc.Problem is I have about a 90ft run.I can't believe it really but I looked at home depots site hear and it showed black pipe was 12.99 for 10ft and type L 1/2in copper was 11.99 for 10ft!  I just can't believe it...
Reply:Originally Posted by piniongearThe compressor is capable of developing 200 psi. I have it the way Quincy set it up to run and it cuts off at 180.What makes me want to change the way the manufacturer set it up? Answer..... nothing.It works great and has more CFM that I can ever use........ pg
Reply:I have 1 1/4" Galvanized in shop all the way to the hose connections. They have been there for 22 years now with no problems. My compressor is 34 cfm @ 175psi. I run a regulator at the tank to reduce air to 140 psi, then a drier/filter. I would stay away from pvc as I have seen the results of it blowing up at a local tire shop. Proper slope and placing your hose connections 12" above the bottom of the drop pipe with a valve will help eliminate alot of moisture.By the way, keep us posted on how the plasma cam works out. I have been thinking about one myself..............................."Look Good Doing It"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply:Black pipe has a lot of advantages over other options, if you are able to thread it and set it up properly.As mentioned, a light slop on horizontal runs is important, as are drip legs with valves. The valve doesn't need to be large since you arn't looking for high flow. My shop has roughly 12" of 3/4 for each drip leg, a concentric reducer, and a 1/4" (or 1/2", where the fittings worked out that way) ball valve for draining. Most drops have a quick connect and a chicago for larger tools (we run large air hammers and chipping guns, as well as arc-air gouges), with a ball valve to shut off the drop, and a ball valve for the chicago. Why the extra ball valve? If a quick connect starts leaking or gets bashed, it is nice to be able to shut off the drop to repair it without draining the air system.Black pipe will last a LONG time if you take care of the system. Drain the water out of the reservoir every day. If you can, a second small reservoir after the main, with a few feet of pipe between them, will trap a lot more water and little to none will get into the lines. Use a flex between the compressor tank (vibrating) and the fixed piping. It can be a section of hose, or a metal flex (accordian pipe with wire braid is a common type).Use enough unions that you can service it later if you need to reconfigure or replace piping. Nothing is worse then pulling it all out because one fitting got whacked with a hammer and needs to be replaced.A decent plumbing supply will have fittings and pipe cheaper then HD, and the quality is likely better, as well. Also, smaller SCH-40 (1" and less) is suitable for pressures way beyond what your air system will hold. 3000PSI service isn't unusual in some applications.
Reply:sounds good everyone... Only other thing I wondering is what size line to use.  my compressor is 12.5cfm 60gal tank and shuts off at 120psi.   I want to make sure im pushing enough air 90-100ft away.Will 1/2" line do it? That ought to be plenty big compared to a normal air hose. Maybe I could go smaller.  im not sure how to figure this, thats why im asking.
Reply:No idea on the real numbers, but I can tell ya that I ran my tools off 100ft of 3/8" rubber hose today with no noticeable drop in performance.  I was using die grinders and cut off tools running off my new 10.3CFM @ 90psi 60 gallon compressor. I would think that 1/2" black pipe would be plenty as long as there is only a couple of tools being run at a time.  Any more tools than that and you'll be lookin for a bigger compressor too.My name's not Jim....
Reply:I do a lot of duct cleaning and I notice a big drop in pressure after three 50' lengths of 3/8 rubber hose @ 200psiDAG NABIT, I left my tape on the saw.Wild Fire WeldingI plumbed my airlines in 1/2" galvanized... haven't had any problems.  Is there a reason that black pipe would be a better choice... other than maybe being a little cheaper?Work HARDER, not smarter! ------------------------ Miller Bobcat 250Millermatic 251Lincoln Precision TIG 185Hypertherm PM 600Hobart 135 HandlerOxweld 400 FlameMaster
Reply:i read where the galvanize flakes off of the inside similar to rust.   I wouldn't think so but thats all i read about it.
Reply:Yep, thats the reason we can not use it at work. Copper only.Tim Beeker.
Reply:Ingersol Rand makes a product called speedline... http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com...px-am_en-33036I tried it... ran 450ft+ all over the shop to 13 locations...I'm not sure why you'd use anything elseThe best things in life all come on a stick!
Reply:Cost of Ingersol's speedline?  Just curious.A few of my toys !LinuxMintManjaroMiller Roughneck 2E Lincoln WeldPak 100HTP MTS 160 Chicago Electric 80amp Inverter   Victor O/A
Reply:Jamlit, and other Canucks.   Princess Auto now sells plastic pipe kits for garage/workshop:http://www.princessauto.com/air/comp...compressed+air Originally Posted by jamlitInteresting.Where I live copper would be about the same to install, and a whole lot easyer. I know in many industrial site black iron is more common but in most cases they are set up doing many other piping jobs and have a power threader on sight.
Reply:Also keep in mind that the larger pipe also effectively increases your air tank size.
Reply:talked to a shop owner today who uses black pipe. he said it rust like H%^, but thats why they invented filters!!
Reply:Can someone remind me why we are talking about Black pipe versus Galvanized pipe here? It just seems using galvanized is such a no-brainer......... pgDynasty 200 DX_set up to run on 3 phaseCoolmate 3MM 251 w/ Spoolmatic 30AHTP 625 Micro Cut Plasma CutterVictor O/A RigBridgeport Mill_3 phase10 inch South Bend Lathe_3 phaseQuincy 325 2 Stg. Air Compressor_3 phase
Reply:Well, although I have no personal experience with this, several articles state that galvanize has a tendancy to flake off on the inside and act similar to rust in black pipe.Whatever, im gonna go look at copper, if i can afford it along with the special fittings (I have no solder gun) im going to go that route.
Reply:Sweating copper is really easy, no soldering gun needed.A propane torch, flux and solder and scotchbrite pad is all thats needed.Tim Beeker.
Reply:Yeah, I went Schedule L 3/4" copper all through my shop, had never sweated a joint before in my life. Bought a MAPP torch, the fittings, copper, and flux, and went after it. Not one leak, and it's been one of the best things I ever did in my shop. I did it just before copper prices tripled though.The soldering toys pay for the welding toys.Hakko 928 dual iron, 4xHakko 936Madell 850D Hot Air SMT ReworkMiller 252, HTP Invertig 201 AC/DC, and a Hypertherm 45.
Reply:My main air line is 3/4" copper. All the lead offs are 1/2" off the main line. Works greats.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:pvc can shatter, you gotta be nuts to use it solder joints can crack if there is air hammer.not a great risk.threaded steel i feel is the safest. rust vrs  galv flakes..either way you want a blowoff tee and a filter setup.
Reply:One more questoin.  I can get 1/2" refrigeration copper in a 50ft roll. basically deletes most of the joints etc. I can just roll it out in the shop and insert my T-fittings where needed. Very easy if it will work.Only thing is, its not like standard K,L,M 1/2" copper which is 1/2" I.D.   The refrig 1/2" copper is OD and is something like 3/8" ID.Does anyone know if this is large enough to supply my plasma at 95ft away. I would think so, but I see where other people have large pipes. This is the only thing that will be running off of this line.
Reply:No problem, I have a coil of 1/2" refrig copper (same size you're looking at) in my setup. I used it to add "length" in order to help cool the air between the first and second filters. My Hypertherm 45 has no problem, thickest I've cut so far is 5/8" and it was easy...The soldering toys pay for the welding toys.Hakko 928 dual iron, 4xHakko 936Madell 850D Hot Air SMT ReworkMiller 252, HTP Invertig 201 AC/DC, and a Hypertherm 45.
Reply:cabletech, man does that make my day!Couple questions on your setup if you don't mind..how long is your run from your compressor to your plasma?  Also what compressor do you have, and what CFM is it rated for?Thanks a bunch for the info, im definitly going to go this route, id just like to hear these things from you to compare my setup.
Reply:I have an Ingersoll-Rand 2340L5 compressor (~14cfm). 3/4" schedule L pipe runs about 60 ft (up the wall, across one 30' wall, then about 20' along the next wall), then about 5 feet of hard 1/2" on the drop, in to a Harbor Freight filter (the blue canister), output of the blue canister goes through a full coil (50') of refrigeration tubing, down in to a Sharpe blue canister filter, then in to a motorguard toilet paper roll style filter, to 50' of air hose. The regulator is at the HF blue canister, it's a Campbell-Hausfeld with 3/8" inlets/outlets. I use this setup for both HVLP painting and the plasma. After the Motorguard, I have one 3/8" quick connect for the HVLP gun and a 1/4" quick connect for everything else.The soldering toys pay for the welding toys.Hakko 928 dual iron, 4xHakko 936Madell 850D Hot Air SMT ReworkMiller 252, HTP Invertig 201 AC/DC, and a Hypertherm 45.
Reply:I ran all copper grade L 1" pipe though out my old mans shop back when he had his pallet recycling business and it work great and provided a lot more tank space since the lines acted as a second tank. Each station was reduced to 1/2" and had its own filter, regulator, and inline oiler. The reason being that it was cheaper to outfit each station where it was reduced to 1/2"  than to put in one filter, regulator, and oiler in a 1" size earlier in the line. Go figure I was shocked to find that out. Before that in his old shop he just had a distribution manifold and individual rubber lines run to everything but when they would try to sink a nail into a hardwood pallet across the shop it wouldn't go all the way in because the line were to restricting.You have many options and most people swear that the way they did it is the way to do it The fact is every way is used somewhere and works for them so whatever way you do it will probably work for you.Just my 2.1 cents
Reply:thanks for the info, Im thinking I need one more filter of some type, here is what I have. From the compressor I go up 10ft then across the roof of the shop 40ft, then back down 10ft,(a drip leg will be here with a ball valve), then along the shop wall at eye level for about 25ft then into a Motorguard toilet roll filter, then into the plasma.Is that good or should I put some form of filtration right before the motorguard that might clean the air up before it hits the toilet roll?Im thinking I should put something there but don't know what I should buy and which is good or a pos.  I don't know jack about air filters except motorguard.