Looking for advice - long

admin

I'm a n00b to the WeldingWeb but have been lurking for some time.  I am hoping (asking) that some more experienced welders would offer their advice on machines and processes.  I've had a lot of questions, many have been answered in the forums already, but a few remain and are preventing me from choosing a welder or welders LoL - don't tell my wife!Intended uses:  Fe and (rarely) Al under 1/4" and occasionally Fe to 1/2 (multiple passes).  Essentially light farm use, I have NO problem with having to need two cylinders (CO2 blend + Argon).Want: 230v 50A (drier/stove) input, no option of 3ph or more amps w/o a different meter for shop $$$$$!  Would like to be able to weld 1/4" and less with a single machine and do it WELL in both Fe and Al, so low current capability is important.I have found a number of "good" used machines in the Dallas area on Craigslist, both MIG and TIG and was going to buy an ESAB MultiMaster 260 and add TIG for about $400.Really, I could get a Lincoln 180C and a spool gun for Al and I *think* that would be good for 99%, but then I have no stick for fence work.  Could pick up a decent stick for $250 if needed in the future.  Concerned about weld (arc) quality on this machine type.My concern is, I am not one that tolerates things not working WELL.  I have always been happier with a purchase spending a *little more* and getting the better item.  From what I have read on WW, some of the portable welders don't offer the weld quality of the older and larger 350A units from Lincoln and Miller I have used in the past, so I am concerned that I would be dissatisfied with the end product (weld quality and machine).What confuses me, is some TIG welders claim Al welding with DC then you read the web and my welding book and everone says AC only for TIG?  Then I see MIG welding AL with DC, so I think well, if you can with MIG why not TIG?  Again, LACK of knowledge!A good friend of mine (who I would trust to fabricate a Top Fuel chassis!) told me that AL takes about 50% greater current than Fe, so I should get a welder that will output at LEAST 150A (MIG) or 225A (TIG).  That seems reasonable given the greater heat capacity of Al as compared to Fe.  There is no standard duty cycle rating for all machines, but the portables seem to be rataed in the 20-30% while the cart versions in the 60% range, that's important as well.I have found a number of older machines that take too much power, but the price is right.  I am confident their weld quality would be very good to excellant but it would cost $1000+ to get more power to the shop that I don't need for any other reason, so I passed over them all.I have these thoughts:1) ESAB 260 (used) if I can get it for a good price (say $1000?? ), add a TIG kit in the future for Al.  Should weld very well, yes?  Do everything?  ~$1500 total ?2) Used Lincoln 180C with a spool gun for AL + used ThermalArc 95S for TIG on AL. ~$1500 total.3) Used PM 255 (not XT) + spool gun for Fe and Al.  ~$2000 total.4) New PM255XT + spool gun when I can afford it.  ~$2000 + spool gun later.As if that wasn't enough, I have read on the WW that tapped welders are not "bad", you just need to be a little more careful on the wire speed.  Also, that wire speed affects amps.  Not sure how that works, I've read it a lot of places so I trust it's accurate, but I started with stick where you set the amps not the volts and I know if you apply more volts you WILL get more amps.  Sounds like there is interplay between the volt and wire speed (amps) settings that I did not appreciate before.I am also aware that retail versions are NOT, most likely, the durability level I am looking for with their plastic drive parts etc.  That's why I mentioned the "c" versions that are typically sold at welding supply houses.PS: SORRY for the long first post, but thanks for reading!Last edited by John_G; 11-29-2009 at 11:48 AM.Reason: kant spel
Reply:"What confuses me, is some TIG welders claim Al welding with DC then you read the web and my welding book and everone says AC only for TIG? Then I see MIG welding AL with DC, so I think well, if you can with MIG why not TIG? Again, LACK of knowledge!"Constant Current vs. Constant Voltage; simply put, mig is always D.C. & C.V., stick and tig are either A.C. or D.C. but always C.C.Aluminum tig is way more common using A.C., but D.C. is possible.Aluminum mig is done with an aluminum compatable wire feeder such as a spoolgun or push-pull feeder, and of course D.C. polarity.Setting a current is done with tig and stick, the machine uses a varying voltage to maintain the set amperage at a constant value.Setting a voltage is done with mig/fluxcore and the machine uses a varying current to maintain voltage and wire speed at constants.Ar/CO2 is mig steel mix gas. Straight argon is for tig and mig aluminum. Straight CO2 is used for steel with mig, but it behaves a bit different than Ar/CO2.Just to confuse you a bit more, some portable wire feeders are made that will run from a Constant Current power source, such as the Lincoln LN25 or Miller 8VS or 12VS. They are called Voltage Sensing Wire Feeders.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:John_GMig is constant voltage; the current varies because the process is make and break. The more often the wire comes in contact the larger the average current is.If you need to work out doors use self-shielding flux core wire.The rules of thumb are;1] For each 0.001 inch of stock thickness, 1 amp is needed.2] To convert required amps to wire speed;Amps x wire multiplier = inches per minute. Wire multiplier;0.025 is  3.5 in/min/amp0.030 is  2 in/min/amp0.035 is  1.6 in/min/amp0.045 is  1 in/min/amp1/8 inch stock is 0.125 in.0.125 in/ 0.001 amp/in = 125 amps.For 0.030 wire, use 2125 amps x 2 in/min/amp = 250 inches per minIf you divide 250 by 10 that’s 25 inches in 6 sec. The set up answer is;Set the heat from the units chart for the stock thickness.Measure the wire fed in 6 seconds.Be careful not to have the wire come in contact with anything or better yet turn the heat off if possible.
Reply:That is VERY helpful!  I wish someone had explained those differences that way years ago.If I understand correectly, no matter the process, I will need two cylinders; one for Fe (CO2 or blend) and another for Al (Argon).  That's no problem, I've got plenty of room for them I would look harder at the Inverter based TIG machines but for general purpose use I can't see them being more user friendly than a similiarly sized MIG machine much less as affordable looking in the 200-250A models AC/DC anyway.
Reply:Originally Posted by transitJohn_GMig is constant voltage; the current varies because the process is make and break. The more often the wire comes in contact the larger the average current is.....The set up answer is;Set the heat from the units chart for the stock thickness.Measure the wire fed in 6 seconds.
Reply:Millermatic 252 with Spoolmatic 30A, bottle of argon and bottle argon/co2 will take care of your mig needs.Dynasty 200 or Thermal Arc 185 ACDC will take care of most of your tig needs except for thick aluminum.XMT 304 CC/CV with a Spoolmatic 30A and WC24 controller and a Suitcase 12RC would also take care of all your mig needs, as well as stick and dc tig with a tig torch and foot pedal.For top of the line pulse mig, a Millermatic 350P with push-pull gun and mig gun will do all your steel and aluminum mig jobs very nicely.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by John_GIf I understand correectly, no matter the process, I will need two cylinders; one for Fe (CO2 or blend) and another for Al (Argon).  That's no problem, I've got plenty of room for them .
Reply:Based on what's been posted, I'd just buy a decent TIG outfit and be done having ACDC and stick capabilities but the cleaniless factor for TIG is a real concern.  From my past (albeit scant) TIG expereince, the material has got to be CLEAN for TIG.  I fear the time spent cleaning everything to that level will make it more of a chore than I am prepared for.Is the Lincoln 255XT *that* much better a machine than the 225 non-XT model?  Everyone seems pleased with the performance of the XTs but I may be able to get a non-XT 255 for under $1500 with the cylinder.One thing I don't appreciate is the relatively high cost of the Lincoln spool gun options.  Miller seems to have this covered much better but I have serious reservations about the drives on the Miller machines.  I think it was on the WW that someone indicated the Lincoln would push wire thru the tip where the Miller would birds-nest under the same conditions.  That is my experience as well, far fewer problems with the drives and guns on the Lincoln welders I have used.DSW, thanks for the correction!  One common gas for all metals is something to consider as well.
Reply:The wire drive mechanisms on the Millermatic 210 and up machines are very good 2-gear roll mechanisms, except for the 350/350P machines, which are 4-gear roll mechanisms.   The Bernard QGun the 350 machines and seperate feeders come with is the best mig gun in the business from any brand.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I not sure what your welding skills or knowledge are and also don't know what your exact budget for your machine(s) is either.  My choice would be the TA 185.  The stick side of TA  will handle up to 5/32" 7018 and up to 3/16" 6010.  when I was going to school I bought the machine to practice at home and I never experienced any problems with the duty cycle of the machine.    Another plus is that its easier to move a 40 lb. inverter than a 200 lb plus transformer machine whether it be mig or stick.  You can skip moving the machine altogether just by buying longer leads.   I say this because you did mention you had stick welded before     I haven't used my machine much for tig but it should handle 3/16" Al and some say it will handle 1/4" thick AL .The best benefit to tig is its ability to do thin steel or Al which normal migging cannot do or do easily.       It seem that you will be the only one using it fo your own benefit and not for a production shop, so speed isn't a top factor.  Also than you will just need one type of gas (Ar).
Reply:Do you really want to get a wire feed machine, or could you be happy with a good stick and tig machine?  I would first get a good engine drive machine (because im guessing you need it portable) and either get a HF box and TIG torch setup to cover you for Al work OR get a seperate TIG machine, like an inverter. (Most will run on 110v as well)If you really need wirefeed, I still suggest getting an stick (CC) and then also a portable wirefeeder for it .  You CAN run wire process with CC, you just need a feeder that will adjust the wirespeed to maintain arc length.Oh, and your not going to be welding much  Fe.  Thats pure iron and most anything you can get your hands on is very far from that.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:I've no need for portability, the neighbor has a Miller Bobcat on a trailer he has asked three times if I needed to borrow (I think it might need gas LoL), so if I want to repair the fence, I have a ready portable unit plus two golf carts worth of 6v batteries if I get desperate.The vast majority of my projects would be more easily done with MIG.  A MM210 or larger with the entry level SG for AL would be more than adequate I'm sure.Miller has a nice ACDC EconoTIG (now Diversion) inverter package that I would buy but I am not comfortable enough with TIG to say that it's all I would need.There is also the ESAB MM160 outfit that will do all processes but DC only.  I have been reading that Heliarc is a trade name owned by ESAB for HELiumARC (DC TIG) developed to weld AL.  Back to two tanks, He and Ar   However, for $2100 new with a 3 year factory warranty, MIG/TIG/Stick in one light compact 230V package has some serious thought going on in my head.I REALLY appreciate all the comments, they are helpful as it is a learning process to see what works for others and how they think about welding.Right now, 21:13 on 30 Nov. 2009, I am really thinking of snagging the ESAB MM260 and ordering the TIG package for it.  For $1300 or so I'd have everything I need for every process but AL Spool which I would barely use.
Reply:Not that it probably matters, but the Econotig and Diversion are somewhat different. The Econotig can do stick as well as tig. The Diversion is a tig only machine. Both are somewhat underpowered in AC tig to do much other than thin, say 1/8 alum. You also loose quite a few options over say a Syncrowave 200, thats not all that much more money new as well as having a bit more power..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan