Irresponsible?

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I saw an article the other day on a manufacturers website (who will remain unnamed but you guys know them) on building motorcycle chopper frames. They talked about how the builder shows are so popular and everybody wants to try their hand at building a custom chopper.They suggested using a frame jig and talked about tubing materials. Then they explained what TGAW and GMAW were.Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if you don't know what TGAW, GMAW, DOM, FCAW, etc. mean I really don't think you should be building chopper frames. If you think that 4140 tubing and the trap under your kitchen sink are pretty similar maybe you should do some research before zapping away at a hardtail. A cut off extension cord with an alligator clip on one end and coat hanger on the other are not an acceptable substitute for one of those expensive welding machines. If anybody watches those fab programs you'll see even with all their shiny equipment they farm out the frame work to an unknown supplier. Most likely someone who has done it a couple times?I had a buddy that had a chopper frame from a big name supplier that had developed cracks in the welds on the neck. Hmmm, if that comes off you suddenly have a unicycle. I've been thrown off enough horses in my time but being thrown off an iron horse in front of a Kenworth takes on new meaning. Just wondered what you all thought.AlA man is judged by what's between his legs...always ride a good horseMiller DialArc HFLincoln Classic 300DThermal Arc 181iPowermax 45Scotchman Ironworker(2) BridgeportsOkomota Surface GrinderAutoCAD 2010
Reply:I totally agree And at the same time there  is a sorta heritage in the custom community. People like Ed Roth, young kids in a different era building ground up customs or choppin a car in a small shop with limited equipment. It was a beautiful thing and still is an awesome experience for the right person but it is also a completely new age. Your average motorcycle now I'm sure makes more hp then cars did when Ed Roth was starting out. Speed limits are higher, populations greater, more people want to do it.On the bright side it's a motorcycle. You are putting yourself at far greater risk than others lol. I do think it should be done responsibly. If you are new to building stuff you should find a group in your area to help guide you or something like that. At the very least a forum where people can give some form of input. I also think it goes beyond welding. I mean for someone starting out it probably would be way better to buy the main components like frame, swing arm, front end but there's still big risks. Not having the proper torque on bolts, not having proper alignment on the motor, trans, drive belt/chain etc. For anyone to build or do heavy modifications to a road going vehicle involves risks and the less experience and knowledge you have the more trouble you can get into. To answer your question in short. Yes I do believe it's a little irresponsible.At the same time the Harley, chopper, biker community comes from the ultimate background of irresponsibility recklessness and DGAF attitude.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:TGAW......GTAW??The welding shows are harmless entertainment.  A few guys may despise them, but then again they are going to despise anything that they don' t do.  A frame crack may develop for many reasons, defective material,  excessive vibration, poor design etc.  Without a scientific diagnosis, it cannot automatically be blamed on the welder.  When chopping first got started do you think anyone actually thought about this kind of stuff?  Were they a bunch of professional guys who wanted to form a motorcycling club?  Do you think they asked the MFGR what kind of alloy was used in the frames?  No, these guys saw something they wanted and did it.   Now, we have this "farm" it out mentality.  The old guys in the biz that know everything, learned it through doing it the right AND wrong way.  Now, we make welding a science. To them it was a form of self expression, an art form.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldTGAW......GTAW??.
Reply:I think the high cost of most welding equipment used to keep a lot of people out of it who maybe didn't belong in it in the first place.  Welding in general I mean.The lower cost import machines, and even the lower end Red and Blue machines have now made it possible for more people to play around with the metal.I'm certainly not a par with a good many folks here, but I've managed to combine a little common sense, research, and a minimum amount of skill to build some pretty useful stuff.I'm not sure what the answer is.  It seems that some people will go ahead with something even though they've been advised against it, or plainly don't have the skills to do it.One of my first projects is still in daily use, and I stand under it every day when in use.I think the awareness of how materials act under stress is the key factor.  The welds are secondary in many cases, just look at any equipment for sale at any yard, a lot of it has some questionable welds, but it does it's job quite well.  Trailers are uppermost in my mind when I think of this.I think design is the key, and eveything else has some forgiveness built into a good design.I wish pocket mig manufacturers would quit claiming such extraordinary capabilities of their machines, and I wish people would quit using them beyond their capabilities.Well, that was a lot of crap"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I agree with ya on the "pocket migs", Samm. I've used a couple of the 110v (a red one and a blue one) over the yrs and I don't feel comfortable w/ the welds on anything over 1/8". With my MM175 I feel OK w/ anything up to a1/4", after that it's drag out the Thunderbolt and run sticks. My fear is people buy the 110's and think they can repair anything w/ them and wind up doing jobs beyond the design of the machine. Thereby endangering themselves and other folks.                                     JMHO,                                              MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:Originally Posted by mla2ofus My fear is people buy the 110's and think they can repair anything w/ them and wind up doing jobs beyond the design of the machine. Thereby endangering themselves and other folks.
Reply:As I said "they THINK they can repair anything". I agree the big machines are no better than the little ones if the wrong hand is holding the stinger/gun/torch. A man has to know his own limitations besides those of his machine.                               MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:I agree with you, Al.  I really don't like those shows.  As an engineer, I cringe at a lot of homemade stuff I see--as well as a lot of factory stuff.  I'm always amused that on every one of those types of shows, they have to hurry to make their deadline.  Something always gets screwed up, they have an argument, and the UPS driver saves the day with a last minute delivery.  I'm pretty fed up with those shows that show you how to remodel your house in an hour, too.  Trouble is, my wife believes that crap.America Needs AMERICA'S Oil!!!"Global warming is the greatest scam in history ...There is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril."--John Coleman, Founder of The Weather Channel
Reply:Originally Posted by steve45I agree with you, Al.  I really don't like those shows.  As an engineer, I cringe at a lot of homemade stuff I see--as well as a lot of factory stuff.  I'm always amused that on every one of those types of shows, they have to hurry to make their deadline.  Something always gets screwed up, they have an argument, and the UPS driver saves the day with a last minute delivery.  I'm pretty fed up with those shows that show you how to remodel your house in an hour, too.  Trouble is, my wife believes that crap.
Reply:Thats why this forum is so great. Also, welding the neck, which is a solid, machined hunk of steel to the frame tubing isnt going to happen with a 110 mig machine. Sure you you can get them stuck together, but it wont hold.I have a frame jig and have not built any or used it yet. It is about 5 years old but the market is so saturated with people doing custom bikes that every yayhoo on the block is trying it.That is the way the old timers learned to do it, trial and error. My bus driver and teacher also used to smoke cigarettes in class when I was in grade school. (1979) We now know better, and the same goes for fabrication, sure the old timers did it, that doesnt make it right, and we now know better than to do certain things. This forum exists to get as many yayhoos together in one spot and educate them enough so that we dont hurt anyone.
Reply:I quess if you were not born a welder, you do not belong in welding.
Reply:I quess if you were not born a welder, you do not belong in welding.
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldTGAW......GTAW??The welding shows are harmless entertainment.  A few guys may despise them, but then again they are going to despise anything that they don' t do.  A frame crack may develop for many reasons, defective material,  excessive vibration, poor design etc.  Without a scientific diagnosis, it cannot automatically be blamed on the welder.  When chopping first got started do you think anyone actually thought about this kind of stuff?  Were they a bunch of professional guys who wanted to form a motorcycling club?  Do you think they asked the MFGR what kind of alloy was used in the frames?  No, these guys saw something they wanted and did it.   Now, we have this "farm" it out mentality.  The old guys in the biz that know everything, learned it through doing it the right AND wrong way.  Now, we make welding a science. To them it was a form of self expression, an art form.
Reply:A lot of you may have forgotten that the old days, Oxy Acetylene was king for welding this kind of stuff.  A lot can go wrong there. lol. But most people used various forms, including brazing some parts.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:A buddy of mine, great mechanic, bought a 1965 HD police bike at auction for $200. In 1973. First electric start, first year with the Shovel head. It had a broken frame, the seat post tube. Anyone dis-assembling an early Harley that knew anything about welding would have been appalled at the welds on early HD frames.Someone gave him a 1947 knuckle hard tail frame, but it wouldn’t work with the electric start motor. We ended up grafting the hard tail to the existing swing arm, welding the broken frame and fabricating an oil tank into the rear fender to make it work. He had an Uncle that was a retired machinist with a lathe etc. at his home shop, and he built a springer front end. 10” over stock length from chrome moly that we had chromed in Dallas. We built an oven from plywood, tin foil and heat lamps and painted it black metal flake and baked the paint onto the MC. We ended up with a good looking chopper (for the early ‘70s), we rode it around town for a couple of months without any problems. A guy from California passing thru town saw him riding it and offered him too much money to turn down for it. I’ve often wondered how the frame and front end held up. I welded the frame with 5P and capped it with a new rod at the time, 7018. I had about 4 or 5 years experience by then, thought I knew what was going on. Figured out much later in life I hadn’t a clue and would never catch up.A frame should be stress relieved after all welding is done. Responsible builders state that their frames are. If it’s not written into the add from the builder don’t buy it.Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.                                         -Cree Indian ProverbSA 200 LincolnVictor Torches
Reply:Are we forgetting that TV is entertainment? We as a society act like the TV is gospel, we elevate the morons on the boob-tube to status they don't deserve. Then like the OP we complain about them? It's all just entertainment. If you don't know the difference, then you voted for Obama. LOL Stop protecting the morons form them selves. Let a few crash and burn. I can hear it now "they never just take out them selves they take your family with them"... well if you want a risk free life you picked the wrong place to live it.
Reply:You know, I remember a specific episode of American Choppers where Senior got very angry at Junior (big surprise, right?) for wanting to try some new handlebars he thought up or something,  His attitude was "it's totally untested, and I don't want it breaking while the guy is doing 60 mph."  I think this is one of those "old school" vs. "brash new school" moments.The old man has been around long enough to know he isn't a structural engineer, but instead a very accomplished metal worker and artisan.  You're right, they always farm out their frames.  When even a guy as good at welding as that won't take those kind of chances, I hardly think a less than expert welder needs to be doing it.  Owning the guy's shop is no substitute for being an invalid or dead.
Reply:I watched a show the other night about bullet resistant vests and flak jackets, how they were developed, how they have progressed and how they are made. Irresponsible show? I watched a show about some guys flying along the face of cliffs with these flying squirrel suits. They told how the suits were made and how they functioned and some of the theory. Irresponsible? I saw a program about a sweety war plane called a Warthogg. They showed a bunch of components and how they worked and what they were made of. I've even seen shows on how dynomite is made, nuclear bombs, skydiving, mountain climbing, drilling and blasting, sword swallowing,,,,,,,,. It's called education, information, entertainment, numerous things.
Reply:I watched a show the other night about bullet resistant vests and flak jackets, how they were developed, how they have progressed and how they are made. Irresponsible show? I watched a show about some guys flying along the face of cliffs with these flying squirrel suits. They told how the suits were made and how they functioned and some of the theory. Irresponsible? I saw a program about a sweety war plane called a Warthogg. They showed a bunch of components and how they worked and what they were made of. I've even seen shows on how dynomite is made, nuclear bombs, skydiving, mountain climbing, drilling and blasting, sword swallowing,,,,,,,,. It's called education, information, entertainment, numerous things.
Reply:man , i'm so scarred of the nuclear bomb in the suitcase thang....even if it wont fit in a suitcase........cant they build it in a house or something , one in each major city..please tell me im crazy.        thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3
Reply:A Harley frame is a great project to learn on, they don't go fast enough to hurt yourself! Most of the stuff I build now is motorcycle and ATV related. Most all of it gets used pretty hard, not projects for a back yard hack, for sure. A lot of the **** they build on TV is just to look cool and be different, whether it works or not is really an afterthought. It's good for inspiring creativity, but little else.
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyI watched a show the other night about bullet resistant vests and flak jackets, how they were developed, how they have progressed and how they are made. Irresponsible show? I watched a show about some guys flying along the face of cliffs with these flying squirrel suits. They told how the suits were made and how they functioned and some of the theory. Irresponsible? I saw a program about a sweety war plane called a Warthogg. They showed a bunch of components and how they worked and what they were made of. I've even seen shows on how dynomite is made, nuclear bombs, skydiving, mountain climbing, drilling and blasting, sword swallowing,,,,,,,,. It's called education, information, entertainment, numerous things.
Reply:Originally Posted by woi2ldman , i'm so scarred of the nuclear bomb in the suitcase thang....even if it wont fit in a suitcase........cant they build it in a house or something , one in each major city..please tell me im crazy.
Reply:TV entertainment is geared to a declining common denominator. It's entertainment, yet there is an established undercurrent that says, "Don't do it yourself...leave it to the experts". How do they manage to portray 'experts' as jolly buffoons? It's the entertainment factor translated directly into $$$'s by the 'format'.Same with the news, doccos, soapies and the adverts. More lies and BS, please Orion pulse-arc welderStick an O/A tooYou mean Norm can't build an 18th Century 10 drawer highboy in 1/2hr?I'm mortified"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammYou mean Norm can't build an 18th Century 10 drawer highboy in 1/2hr?I'm mortified
Reply:actually, any new welder who bought a 110 mig and managed to booger together a "chopper" or any other bike... kind of deserve it when the welds fail.the problem starts when they start charging money to build bikes/frames for other peole.
Reply:most of those custom chopper guys don't build frames... BECAUSE THEY CAN'T.The amount of hard tooling, jigs and precision needed to build a frame is usually outside of the realm of commercial bike builders who are all about making interesting metal forms as fast and cheap as they can.  I know for years Jesse James farmed out his frame building because frankly it was beyond his shops technical ability. I haven't heard of any hack frame builders, because the cost of entry for commercial work is too great. need a decent amount of tooling and experience to jig a frame and weld it properly.There will always be the joker trying to build a bike frame in his garage with a suitcase mig, or someone building a porch for their house with no experience. The tend to get sorted out real fast.As a career welder, and welding engineer and avid motorcyclist. I personally don't weld on any of my motorcycle frames.  I'll do cosmetic work but I won't touch a tweaked frame or anything like that.  Not because I can't but because I'm  not gonna sit through the rigors of doing structural analysis nor any NDT on the finished welds.  If I ever did say weld up my triple tree and it cracked... I know I would be cursing myself for that .2 seconds before I hit the ground.If I really wanted to do something structural like that, my engineer side wouldn't let me get away without sitting down and doing some bare bones static and dynamic load calculations to check everything out. I trust my welding ability but hard to pick up subsurface issues with just eyes.